I don’t see how that is being a dick. He’s right.
Imagine you see a guy with broken limbs, asking you for help, and you go “NO! The government should be there to help you!” and walk away.
You’re right on principle.
You’re still being a dick.
You’d call the ambulance before walking away? I mean, I’m not a doctor, what else am I supposed to do?
What does this have to do with tipping?
That just suggesting they shouldn’t need tips to live doesn’t stop them from needing tips to live, while patrons continue to support the establishment that isn’t paying the workers.
In Canada, tipping is entirely optional, but I still tip well because it’s not actually service workers fault that they don’t have an uncle Jimmy their dad has convinced to give them unique job opportunities. And people keeping getting meaner.
Yes it would be nice if we didn’t live in a system that forces people to look to each other for scraps while others build yachts for their yachts, finding moral excuses to withhold money from the poorest.
You’d call the ambulance before walking away?
Yup. And, likewise, you should tip before the government fixes the employment market.
I really don’t see the parallel here. Calling an ambulance for someone in help is a no-brainer. Also doesn’t cost me anything.
But why should pick up the tab for the government failing to regulated some business and employers exploiting the lack of regulations?
Like, if there is no ambulance service in a specific region do you expect me to become an amateur EMT as well?
Like, if there is no ambulance service in a specific region do you expect me to become an amateur EMT as well?
Right, so what’s your reaction when someone’s on the ground like that and there’s no ambulance service? Just tell him “shit luck, mate” and walk away?
Really depends in the injury.
But assuming it’s something that will kill them without immediate hospitalization … yeah, pretty much. I guess I can sit with them till they dead …
Unless it’s taking too long because I really need to go pack my stuff and get out of this god-forsaken place without ambulance service.
Really depends in the injury.
Christ, I’m impressed at how fucking much you managed to miss the point…
But why should pick up the tab for the government failing to regulated some business and employers exploiting the lack of regulations?
If you disagree with the practice, then don’t spend money at those businesses. Going to a tip-based restaurant and not tipping enriches the exploitative owner while adding to the exploitation.
Do you also think it’s fine to buy cheap goods made with slave labor because you’re not personally the one cracking the whip?
He’s right, but he’s not doing what he thinks he’s doing.
Another moment in difficult nerd history
You can still be a dick even when you are right. He was punishing the worker out of principle. The worker is forced to participate in the system, it’s not their fault the tipping system exists. Yet he still paid the bill and thus rewarded the people that perpetuated the system.
Oupsie daisy, I spilled some Hot soup on you, sorry sorry!
(You’re right though, but I still spilled hot soup on you)
Workers should be paid a fair wage from the start and tipping shouldn’t be necessary. That much is true.
But when he knows that the system is the way it is, refusing to tip and trying to convince others not to tip isn’t helping those workers get paid. That’s being a dick.
It could also be argued that you are perpetuating the system by playing along, which is also a dick move.
So don’t go to that restaurant, and let everyone know why. Continuing to go and not tipping is just exploitation
He’s directly supporting the people benefiting from the exploitation of the workers while lowering their pay. The most generous explanation I can come up with is accelerationism, trying to incite the workers to strike, but that’s still a dick move.
“You’re stuck in a system you shouldn’t have to be in, so fuck you for that”
don’t be a dick? Trotsky was right on this 100%
If Trotsky refused to go to those restaurants he would be right. By going he was effectively treating them as slaves by expecting unpaid labor as he knew that was their source of income.
where would you go to as a protest against tipping? where do they not force you to tip?
I tip when I go to places that expect tips because my stiffing individual wait staff isn’t going to change anything. If I was going to ‘protest’ I would just boycott sit down restaurants. At this point I only go if someone else really wants to.
There are tons of place to get good food that doesn’t involve tipping and I can just make food at home too. Counter service restaurants might have a pity jar for tips, but the business is still paying their staff and not expecting 95% of wages to come from that jar.
I tip when I go to places that expect tips because my stiffing individual wait staff isn’t going to change anything. If I was going to ‘protest’ I would just boycott sit down restaurants. At this point I only go if someone else really wants to.
I do the same today… I am just wondering if the same amount of choices was available in 1900 (which I doubt)
There are tons of place to get good food that doesn’t involve tipping
Today? hmmm I disagree
and I can just make food at home too
Absolutely which is what I do but again, not everybody is like us.
People were able to make food at home or get food from places that didn’t involve sitting down and making tiped wait staff serve someone for free in 1900.
You don’t have fast food, counter service locations, street vendors, or any of the other food sources that don’t involve sitting down and being served by someone whose primary income comes from tips?
get food from places that didn’t involve sitting down and making tiped wait staff serve someone for free in 1900.
Really? I had no idea but I guess you are an expert?
You don’t have fast food, counter service locations, street vendors, or any of the other food sources that don’t involve sitting down and being served by someone whose primary income comes from tips?
Honestly no, every one of those ask for tips now here in Canada.
Is it the vast majority of their income like wait staff in the US?
No? Then tipping is optional there and has nothing to do with what Trotsky did which was in the US when 100% of their income came from tips or current US waitstaff where the vast majority of their income still comes from tips.
The employees deserve a fair wage, and it is fucked that the onus is on the customer to provide that directly. However, not tipping doesn’t fix the issue, you are just taking free labor from the workers and not addressing rhe actual issue
Hmmm I think it helps… if the waiting staff cannot make a living, they would look for better paying jobs thus forcing their current employers to pay better OR forcing them to close.
How is this different from any other “boycott” company X by not giving them any money? I could say you are condemning those employees to be inevitably laid off by not giving the corp money
“Hey guys, lets punish the workers so that they have to make change happen instead of maybe taking the initiative to get the laws changed.”
So what do you do to get the laws changed?
Nothing, absolutely nothing. There are many other things that impact me directly that take up my time.
But while doing nothing about changing the laws around tipping I am also not punishing the wait staff by refusing to engage in the current system to their detriment. My criticism is leveled at the people who stiff wait staff while doing nothing to fix the system.
People aren’t working at a restaurant because they have other options available. It’s a shit job that doesn’t care if you have no degree, prior convictions, or a mental disorder. All they care about is that you can get to work on time and accomplish 75% of your duties everyday. Most places offer no insurance, have no retirement plans, and force you to work most holidays and weekends. It’s a shit job for people with no other options, and you’re saying they should get paid less or find a new job
People aren’t working at a restaurant because they have other options available
Not sure now… but a few years back it was the best “non skilled” job to have precisely because of tips
It’s a shit job that doesn’t care if you have no degree, prior convictions, or a mental disorder. All they care about is that you can get to work on time and accomplish 75% of your duties everyday
It does usually require people to be pretty/attractive… there are other jobs (anything back of the house) that does not require this under the same shitty work conditions
It’s a shit job for people with no other options, and you’re saying they should get paid less or find a new job
That is not what I am saying at all… Grocery store cashiers get very similar shitty conditions and they get no tips I would like to end tipping and would love for people to be paid a living wage, the question is “how we get there?” and I am trying to see Trotsky’s take on it.
Of course, this is another social media post and it would immediately be blasted and misinterpreted without an iota of thought put into it
Worked IT for a payroll company with a bunch of restaurant clients. It was not unusual for servers to drag home $4,000+ a month in tips alone.
Cool. I made $300 a week doing full-time weeknight bartending last year as my primary income. Most servers are barely scraping by
On one hand, he’s being a dick; on the other, tipping culture persists because there’s a perception (and for some pretty waitresses a reality) that tipping pays far better than a living wage.
Because people are told to tip, and incessantly told to tip more.
5 tables an hour for three hours, $150 a table and 20% tip works out to 5x30x3 = $450. That’s a pretty good night, and it’s up and down, but cash is cash.
If someonees go to a restaurant and exploits free labor by refusing to tip because of their ‘principles’ then they are an asshole for abusing the employees who just did work for for free. Those who oppose tipping culture should not use tipping based services.
5 tables an hour for three hours, $150 a table and 20% tip works out to 5x30x3 = $450. That’s a pretty good night, and it’s up and down, but cash is cash.
While restaurants do exist that might have those kinds of numbers in large cities or well off areas, the vast majority of wait staff work at local and chain restaurants where tables are under $100 and they are working an 8 hour shift with plenty of downtime. Your example is the minority of servers that are vocal about keeping tips because they are attractive and have the best schedules.
then they are an asshole for abusing the employees who just did work for for free
For free? so they’re not getting paid at all by their employer?
How about if workers are so angry that they will spill hot fucking soup on a patron, that they turn around and have a ‘chat’ with their boss?
And does America even provide enough ‘non-tipping services’ for that to be a viable option?
How about if workers are so angry that they will spill hot fucking soup on a patron, that they turn around and have a ‘chat’ with their boss?
Their boss fires them, their families starve, nothing fundamentally changes.
This is unskilled labor in early 20th century New York City.
And does America even provide enough ’non-tipping services’ for that to be a viable option?
Sure. The only places you’re expected to tip are restaurants, and even then, only some ‘sit-down’ restaurants, not places with take-out.
Here’s a tip: unionize.
That’s not going to help the immediate problem of their family starving, and considering the lack of legal protections for unions at that time, may actually make it worse, which most of those workers would probably be unwilling to risk.
Those who oppose tipping culture should not use tipping based services.
That’s a very US centric opinion. What about places like Canada, where waitstaff, just like every other profession, are entitled to the minimum wage? In Ontario, that’s $17.50 an hour. I would argue that in such places, tipping should be entirely optional and seen as an added reward for good service, and forgoing a tip shouldn’t be seen as “abusing the employees”.
Tipping culture refers to having jobs where a significant or vast majority of their income is tips. Like 50%-95% of their income is tips, so tipping is expected. Tipping culture in the US is the culture where the meme takes place.
It is not referring to tipping as an option, which is what tipping should be.
You and I seem to have a different opinion on what Tipping culture means. To me, it means the practice of giving gratuities to service workers, which has turned into an expectation at most establishments, with the most recent development being the use of dark design to trick people into tipping more. Card readers now default the tipping prompts to 18%, 20% and 25% for “okay”, “good”, and “great” service. The option to skip a tip, even in places where you’re just picking up the food, is hidden two menus deep. It also means the use of social desirability tactics to get people to tip more. To me, it means the culture around tipping as a whole, not just “having jobs where a significant or vast majority of their income is tips”.
Businesses are trying to expand tipping culture into jobs that were not previously reliant on tips, and those are the steps on the way.
My example is indeed the best case scenario, the one that is held up as a standard to excuse the labor abuses that occur as a result of tipping culture.
I’m not exploiting free labour. The owner does that - and even in the USA they’ve made it illegal to totally rely on tips (even for Black people, even in the South, for now). As a customer, I’m not really in a position to assess the compliance of the company with labour laws. Even if I tip, I can’t know whether the employer is skimming the top. In any case, it’s unlikely that the people responsible for making the food are getting a cut. I don’t eat out often and when I do, there’s a few places I’ve been going for a while that have had the same staff for over a decade. I have to hope that the reason for employee retention is that they’re treated well.
You do understand that the federal minimum wage for tipped positions is about $2 and they only have to bring it up to $7 if almost nobody tips, right?
The employer not paying more because the wages are primarily tips isn’t as bad as someone who refuses to tip but still expects the same labor. The employer expects someone else to pay for the labor, the non-tipping customer expects free labor.
Wait staff that stick around do so because the employer treats them well enough and their customer base doesn’t try to fight tipping culture by punishing the wait staff.
This is a common misunderstanding, but not tipping servers doesn’t mean they had to work for free. In the case of a tip shortfall, employers are required by federal law (in the US at least) to make up the difference between what the server made and minimum wage.
The employer just has to make sure you meet the local minimum wage over the course of the work week.
They do it based on averages, so when they get shorted by a customer then that work is free and the business only has to make up something if their two week average including tips is under minimum wage.
Either they make on average above minimum wage due to tips, or they make minimum wage due to employer pay. In no case will their weekly pay fall below the hourly minimum wage, so all of their time is compensated (not well enough, of course, but minimum wage being inadequate is another discussion entirely).
That is an awful argument.
Then it should be super duper easy for you to rebut.
Not tipping punishes the wait staff by reducing their expected source of income that is tied to their labor with zero impact on tipping culture. Trying to justify that with ‘but mah minimum wage’ is just adding insult to injury.
People who refuse to tip on principle, but still go to places based on tipping culture are assholes. Trying to justify it is just doubling down.
If you want to punish the business owner, boycott the business. If you want tipping culture to end, work on legislation that allows it to exist.
Seems like the principled thing to do would be not to give the establishment money in the first place.
Yes, that is the right thing to do in this situation because then you are not exploiting their unpaid labor.
Their labour isn’t unpaid if they’re not getting tips - they’re presumably still being paid by their employer.
Sure, some US states and other countries do have some kind of reasonable base pay, but when the expectation is that they will receive tips for the vast majority of their labor then the labor they provide to individual customers is unpaid if they don’t get a tip.
Do keep in mind that a large number of US states only require businesses to pay two bucks and change per hour for tipped workers unless their overall income including tips is higher that seven bucks and change per hour. If they aren’t getting tips they are not really being paid.
If someone refuses to tip while everyone else does they are getting something for free at everyone else’s expense while participating in the system they say that they oppose.
Assuming the restaurant owner keeps his books right. Unfortunately most restaurant owners are the cheapest and shadiest bastards in town and will do everything they can to avoid paying their staff
Their labour isn’t unpaid if they’re not getting tips
Minimum wage for tipped labor wasn’t instituted until the 50s, and was a common way of exploiting desperate Black folks for unpaid labor.
Cue the Steve Buscemi speech.
Something you and the tankies have in common, a disdain for Trotsky lol
I generally don’t take issue with Trots ideologically, it’s the man himself who’s a dick.
