This is the kind of thing people do when they fully believe that there is no path to justice. If we ever held cops accountable, this wouldn’t have happened.
Everyone exploding at this, but this headline seems written to stir controversy, and people don’t seem to be reading the article.
Two key facts:
It’s reported that the 18 year old who was shot and killed was pointing a firearm with an extended magazine at officers when he was shot (though yes, he was running away, so yes, it could have been handled better, but there are thousands of more cut and dry cases to be mad about).
The deputy who was killed may have absolutely nothing to do with what happened
The cop that shot him CLAIMS the kid pointed the gun at him, but the video evidence contradicts that. In fact, he was prompted to shoot the moment he exited his vehicle by other cops hollering “He’s got a gun!” He relied on their statements, not his own experience of seeing the gun.
The fact that the kid had a gun is automatically in dispute. ALL cops have throwaway guns to be used in exactly this sort of a case. The video does not show him with a gun, but one was on him when he was found? Highly suspicious.
This kid stole a car, which was recovered. That is not a death penalty situation. Nobody should be murdered over an insured car.
The video evidence reportedly claims that. As far as I can tell it hasn’t been made public yet.
Yes the police shouldn’t be trusted, but neither should media being put out the same day. There hasn’t been enough time for the media to actually get evidence and view it themselves. Any “facts” you see right now should be held to the same belief.
I saw a clip of the kid running, and I didn’t see a gun. So I’m not just parroting someone else, I am drawing my own conclusion based on my own objective research using original sources.
… so if my son was murdered by police who claimed that he was pointing a gun at them and then I saw footage that proves that u would use my words and tell the whole fucking world.
You’re speculating that maybe they planted a gun.
There is body camera footage that shows the event and notably family members who have watched it have not made that claim.
You don’t know that they haven’t made that claim, just that the media hasnt reported it. Local media tend to be very pro-local police.
Besides, thats not the point. The cop who shot him claims he saw the kid point a gun at him, even though he was on the scene for only seconds before firing. I’ve seen the bodycam footage, and the kid was running, not aiming. That cop wasn’t responding to the kid pointing the gun, he was responding to the other cops hollering that he had a gun, and he just started firing at a running suspect.
Bottom line: the kid stole an insured car, which was recovered. There was no reason to be killing anyone over that.
Everyone responds differently. You’d use words probably because you’ve found that effective in the past or have strongly associated events such as this where words have solved problems.
You are speculating the family would run to the media and your son isn’t dead so your reaction is all speculative.
If facts actually meant as much to you as you claimed you wouldn’t so readily speculate and be so quick to paper over your lack of knowledge with your personal biases.
You do indicate you like to use words and you’re currently using those words to create an unsupported narrative while getting upset with others for doing the same.
I’d suggest you try and find some time to work of self reflection but you probably just tell me to get fucked.
People are throwing out the claim that he didn’t have a gun and the cops planted it, I’m saying there’s no proof and the family isn’t saying that either.
I’m not supporting the cops killing this kid at all, I get why the dad did what he did too.
It’s just wild that someone can be like “yo I be he didn’t even have a gun and the cops planted it” and my statement that not even the family who saw the video is saying that is in the wrong.
I really don’t think either of those facts mattered to dad. I think what matters is the reality that police are so rarely held accountable in even those cut and dry cases that there is no perception of justice at all.
You’re saying key facts, but there’s no proof at this time that he was aiming a gun at the cops. The article makes that very clear. That has not been established at all. There’s nothing that proves he even had a weapon. That’s a claim the police made. But has not been proven. You should never ever take police statements as fact. Particularly when they so obviously have motive not to be truthful.
Never suggested it did. I just said that whatever was in the video enraged him to the point that he killed someone over it. So maybe we should take that as an indication of what he thought of the video. Doesn’t that make more sense than thinking that they accepted the police’s story 100%?
I’m smart enough to know that there is body camera footage of the incident and the family has already seen it and I similarly know that with the climate in the USA if the footage showed no gun and nothing to support the officers beliefs then we’d already be fucking rioting.
Making shit up without having evidence is tantamount to lying. It’s disinformation regardless of if it fits your world view.
The police claim he had a gun, they claim he pointed it and that was the impetus.
The family has not refuted this claim. Maybe they will, they haven’t yet.
As it stands this is what we KNOW.
Making claims one way or the other without any credible evidence is called making shit up.
I’m not making anything up by pointing out that your claim is pulled out of the air, that’s all it is. The family hasn’t said he didn’t have a gun, the cops say he did. People in this thread do not know one way or the other so making claims is ridiculous.
The second point, I don’t really mind. If you cause your department to be viewed with hatred, you’re responsible for your “brothers” dying. If they want to avoid this they should try to rehabilitate their image. Until then, they should view everything they do as effecting all of their fellow officers.
I don’t want them to blame me, but I also will not hold it against them if they do. It’ll be understandable, but maybe not perfectly accurate.
However, these officers are in a different situation than that. They’re choosing to work as cops and with the person who caused this. I’m sure they’d fight to protect them if it comes to it, so if they get part of the punishment that’s fine. They need to learn they can’t do what they’re doing, and they aren’t going to learn by us asking nicely. They need to face consequences of some form, and the legal system isn’t handling it.
What that sounds like is that you are okay with collateral damage. But where does that stop? Are you ok with the killing of thier spouse because they chose to marry someone who became a cop? What about thier kids? Cousins? Neighbors? People who live in the same apartment complex?
Where do you draw the line? And why?
A very solid line against anyone who didn’t choose it. Spouse? Probably not, but it’s in the blurry area. Are they encouraging them to be evil? I’d rather none of it happen, including the cops killing people. If they are, it’d be good if they faced consequences, so they couldn’t do it freely. Those first two aren’t happening though, so something else needs to. The only way they stop at this point is if they’re afraid to murder people. Again, preferably this is done through the legal process, but that isn’t happening.
For me, killing a cop indiscriminately is not okay. A dirty cop, I will say ok assuming the punishment fits the crime. The problem you describe is caused by poloticians, union leaders, and the legal system. They are the ones that should be “pressured” to affect change.
I agree mostly, but I would say the union at least would work to change things if they see cops being murdered because cops are legally getting away with murder. The union works for the cops. They try to protect them, and if that means they need stricter rules so they can’t cause danger for other cops, that’s what they’d do. It might take a while though.
The same might be done by politicians or judges/the legal system if they see this too. The fact of the matter is, what the cops are doing is already illegal. It just isn’t enforced. If these people see vigilantism against cops rise, I’d hope (though I wouldn’t bet on it) that they’d start making changes to the system so people don’t feel that’s necessary.
Also, yes, this would be the literal definition of terrorism. What the cops are doing is also terrorism. It’s only ever seen as bad when it’s entities other than the state doing it, because they control the media.
Again, I hope we don’t see this happening, but I also see that people feel they aren’t left with an alternative, so I expect it to become more common unless things begin to change.
Edit: I also want to add that all cops are complicit unless they’re speaking out for change and calling out the dirty cops, but then you don’t get to be a cop for long. One rotten apple spoils the bunch. Get rid of the rotten apples or you’re all going to be rotten.
Trust me that will always be part of your person in the eyes if others and has been for quite some time now.
It took decades for Germans to not be immediately seen as Nazis in other European countries even when the Germans were obviously born after WW2. And to this day one of the first things you get to hear is something related to WW2, today mostly by non-europeans.
Blame is usually reserved for those actively contributing to the problem. There are several words for not doing anything to solve a problem, but blame doesn’t really fit.
And how would you know if I was or was not actively doing something. That’s kind of my point. If you blame someone for something just by association, and don’t even try to find out if they are trying to solve the problem… I am not in favor of that.
Afterall, a person can’t actively work to solve every problem that people who they are associated with cause. So you would be to blame for the mexican drug cartels killing people because you aren’t actively working to solve that problem, but people from your country surely do drugs which is why the cartels exist and kill people.
how would you know if I was or was not actively doing something
It’s the Internet I don’t. The difference in perspective I see is the lack of ‘guilt by association’ which only goes so far. That was kind of what the whole Nuremberg trials were about. My point is that if you are not confident that in a real life interaction you can demonstrate either you were unaware, were resisting, dis-associated yourself or were incapable, then you do shoulder some of the blame.
The fact we’re having this conversation shows you are not unaware, I hope you’re actively resisting but the defensiveness tells me you might not believe you’re doing enough, and if that’s because you’re incapable, for whatever reason, then give yourself some grace. If that’s not the case then yes, you modern_medicine are to blame for the fascist bullshit happening around you.
people from your country surely do drugs which is why the cartels exist and kill people.
I believe you have a poor understanding of what cartels are and why they exist, but yes using your example I can confidently say I actively work to alleviate the conditions that result in people self-medicating and have distanced myself from cartels and their activities as much as I am aware and capable of. Can you say the same?
I agree that “blame” may not be the right word. Is there an English word for “complicit through complacency”?
Yes, “complicit through complacency” is much better. I thought there were lots of single words that fit too. But I struggled to find any that didn’t imply active assistance.
I do what I can. But it doesn’t feel like enough. At the same time, most of it feels ineffective. In my case I have to weigh the saftey of my family against my ideology. It’s not fair to my kids to go and get myself locked up or worse.
And it clearly isn’t enough as things are getting worse, but also what I’m doing clearly isn’t enough either. Unfortunately, it’s impossible for one, or two, people to do enough. It’s just important you do what you can and remain cynical about what those limitations are.
I apologize if this felt like it was targeted explicitly at you, but I don’t see a path forward without aggressively corralling those who are doing “what is expected” vs “what they can” and I apologize if my attempts at pushing were misdirected or misplaced.
Keep on doing what your doing, if we all keep doing what we can we’ll get through this.
This is the kind of thing people do when they fully believe that there is no path to justice. If we ever held cops accountable, this wouldn’t have happened.
Everyone exploding at this, but this headline seems written to stir controversy, and people don’t seem to be reading the article.
Two key facts:
It’s reported that the 18 year old who was shot and killed was pointing a firearm with an extended magazine at officers when he was shot (though yes, he was running away, so yes, it could have been handled better, but there are thousands of more cut and dry cases to be mad about).
The deputy who was killed may have absolutely nothing to do with what happened
Key “facts” about your “key facts”:
The cop that shot him CLAIMS the kid pointed the gun at him, but the video evidence contradicts that. In fact, he was prompted to shoot the moment he exited his vehicle by other cops hollering “He’s got a gun!” He relied on their statements, not his own experience of seeing the gun.
The fact that the kid had a gun is automatically in dispute. ALL cops have throwaway guns to be used in exactly this sort of a case. The video does not show him with a gun, but one was on him when he was found? Highly suspicious.
This kid stole a car, which was recovered. That is not a death penalty situation. Nobody should be murdered over an insured car.
The video evidence reportedly claims that. As far as I can tell it hasn’t been made public yet.
Yes the police shouldn’t be trusted, but neither should media being put out the same day. There hasn’t been enough time for the media to actually get evidence and view it themselves. Any “facts” you see right now should be held to the same belief.
I saw a clip of the kid running, and I didn’t see a gun. So I’m not just parroting someone else, I am drawing my own conclusion based on my own objective research using original sources.
Key fact: the family has not claimed that he wasn’t carrying a gun, and has viewed the body cam footage.
So?
… so if my son was murdered by police who claimed that he was pointing a gun at them and then I saw footage that proves that u would use my words and tell the whole fucking world.
You’re speculating that maybe they planted a gun.
There is body camera footage that shows the event and notably family members who have watched it have not made that claim.
Only you are making that claim.
You don’t know that they haven’t made that claim, just that the media hasnt reported it. Local media tend to be very pro-local police.
Besides, thats not the point. The cop who shot him claims he saw the kid point a gun at him, even though he was on the scene for only seconds before firing. I’ve seen the bodycam footage, and the kid was running, not aiming. That cop wasn’t responding to the kid pointing the gun, he was responding to the other cops hollering that he had a gun, and he just started firing at a running suspect.
Bottom line: the kid stole an insured car, which was recovered. There was no reason to be killing anyone over that.
I got it, you’re outraged and speculating and don’t care about knowing what happened.
You just want to push your narrative and fit the story to that.
You won’t find an ally of the police in me but people who project misinformation just to fit their world view are awful too
Everyone responds differently. You’d use words probably because you’ve found that effective in the past or have strongly associated events such as this where words have solved problems.
You are speculating the family would run to the media and your son isn’t dead so your reaction is all speculative.
If facts actually meant as much to you as you claimed you wouldn’t so readily speculate and be so quick to paper over your lack of knowledge with your personal biases.
You do indicate you like to use words and you’re currently using those words to create an unsupported narrative while getting upset with others for doing the same.
I’d suggest you try and find some time to work of self reflection but you probably just tell me to get fucked.
I’m not creating any narrative.
People are throwing out the claim that he didn’t have a gun and the cops planted it, I’m saying there’s no proof and the family isn’t saying that either.
I’m not supporting the cops killing this kid at all, I get why the dad did what he did too.
It’s just wild that someone can be like “yo I be he didn’t even have a gun and the cops planted it” and my statement that not even the family who saw the video is saying that is in the wrong.
I don’t really need to self reflect on that, tbh.
I really don’t think either of those facts mattered to dad. I think what matters is the reality that police are so rarely held accountable in even those cut and dry cases that there is no perception of justice at all.
“Things police claim” =|= “Facts”
In fact, more often than not, things cops claim are lies. Because they are trained to lie about everything.
key facts:
“reported that” “may have”
You’re saying key facts, but there’s no proof at this time that he was aiming a gun at the cops. The article makes that very clear. That has not been established at all. There’s nothing that proves he even had a weapon. That’s a claim the police made. But has not been proven. You should never ever take police statements as fact. Particularly when they so obviously have motive not to be truthful.
There is body cam footage of the event.
The family has already reviewed it.
There’s been no statement that he wasn’t carrying a gun from the family.
The video was so enraging to the father that he went out and killed another police officer. Seems like a statement to me.
I mean dude just lost a kid. Right or wrong, people make bad decisions in those situations.
Revenge doesn’t make an action justified.
Never suggested it did. I just said that whatever was in the video enraged him to the point that he killed someone over it. So maybe we should take that as an indication of what he thought of the video. Doesn’t that make more sense than thinking that they accepted the police’s story 100%?
Uh, the dad made a statement of sorts.
Are you stupid enough to think that he absolutely had a gun just because they made no statement either way? Their son was just murdered you asshat.
I’m smart enough to know that there is body camera footage of the incident and the family has already seen it and I similarly know that with the climate in the USA if the footage showed no gun and nothing to support the officers beliefs then we’d already be fucking rioting.
Making shit up without having evidence is tantamount to lying. It’s disinformation regardless of if it fits your world view.
You have implied throughout this thread that no statement from the family means he had a gun. That is also a bullshit lying accusation.
Oh my god this is insanity.
The police claim he had a gun, they claim he pointed it and that was the impetus.
The family has not refuted this claim. Maybe they will, they haven’t yet.
As it stands this is what we KNOW.
Making claims one way or the other without any credible evidence is called making shit up.
I’m not making anything up by pointing out that your claim is pulled out of the air, that’s all it is. The family hasn’t said he didn’t have a gun, the cops say he did. People in this thread do not know one way or the other so making claims is ridiculous.
The second point, I don’t really mind. If you cause your department to be viewed with hatred, you’re responsible for your “brothers” dying. If they want to avoid this they should try to rehabilitate their image. Until then, they should view everything they do as effecting all of their fellow officers.
I dunno. I’m American, and I sure don’t want the world blaming me for what trump is doing. But I do share your frustration in general.
I don’t want them to blame me, but I also will not hold it against them if they do. It’ll be understandable, but maybe not perfectly accurate.
However, these officers are in a different situation than that. They’re choosing to work as cops and with the person who caused this. I’m sure they’d fight to protect them if it comes to it, so if they get part of the punishment that’s fine. They need to learn they can’t do what they’re doing, and they aren’t going to learn by us asking nicely. They need to face consequences of some form, and the legal system isn’t handling it.
What that sounds like is that you are okay with collateral damage. But where does that stop? Are you ok with the killing of thier spouse because they chose to marry someone who became a cop? What about thier kids? Cousins? Neighbors? People who live in the same apartment complex? Where do you draw the line? And why?
A very solid line against anyone who didn’t choose it. Spouse? Probably not, but it’s in the blurry area. Are they encouraging them to be evil? I’d rather none of it happen, including the cops killing people. If they are, it’d be good if they faced consequences, so they couldn’t do it freely. Those first two aren’t happening though, so something else needs to. The only way they stop at this point is if they’re afraid to murder people. Again, preferably this is done through the legal process, but that isn’t happening.
For me, killing a cop indiscriminately is not okay. A dirty cop, I will say ok assuming the punishment fits the crime. The problem you describe is caused by poloticians, union leaders, and the legal system. They are the ones that should be “pressured” to affect change.
I agree mostly, but I would say the union at least would work to change things if they see cops being murdered because cops are legally getting away with murder. The union works for the cops. They try to protect them, and if that means they need stricter rules so they can’t cause danger for other cops, that’s what they’d do. It might take a while though.
The same might be done by politicians or judges/the legal system if they see this too. The fact of the matter is, what the cops are doing is already illegal. It just isn’t enforced. If these people see vigilantism against cops rise, I’d hope (though I wouldn’t bet on it) that they’d start making changes to the system so people don’t feel that’s necessary.
Also, yes, this would be the literal definition of terrorism. What the cops are doing is also terrorism. It’s only ever seen as bad when it’s entities other than the state doing it, because they control the media.
Again, I hope we don’t see this happening, but I also see that people feel they aren’t left with an alternative, so I expect it to become more common unless things begin to change.
Edit: I also want to add that all cops are complicit unless they’re speaking out for change and calling out the dirty cops, but then you don’t get to be a cop for long. One rotten apple spoils the bunch. Get rid of the rotten apples or you’re all going to be rotten.
Trust me that will always be part of your person in the eyes if others and has been for quite some time now.
It took decades for Germans to not be immediately seen as Nazis in other European countries even when the Germans were obviously born after WW2. And to this day one of the first things you get to hear is something related to WW2, today mostly by non-europeans.
Then I guess you should probably be actively doing something about that problem shouldn’t you?
So long as you aren’t that blame isn’t really misplaced is it?
Blame is usually reserved for those actively contributing to the problem. There are several words for not doing anything to solve a problem, but blame doesn’t really fit. And how would you know if I was or was not actively doing something. That’s kind of my point. If you blame someone for something just by association, and don’t even try to find out if they are trying to solve the problem… I am not in favor of that. Afterall, a person can’t actively work to solve every problem that people who they are associated with cause. So you would be to blame for the mexican drug cartels killing people because you aren’t actively working to solve that problem, but people from your country surely do drugs which is why the cartels exist and kill people.
It’s the Internet I don’t. The difference in perspective I see is the lack of ‘guilt by association’ which only goes so far. That was kind of what the whole Nuremberg trials were about. My point is that if you are not confident that in a real life interaction you can demonstrate either you were unaware, were resisting, dis-associated yourself or were incapable, then you do shoulder some of the blame.
The fact we’re having this conversation shows you are not unaware, I hope you’re actively resisting but the defensiveness tells me you might not believe you’re doing enough, and if that’s because you’re incapable, for whatever reason, then give yourself some grace. If that’s not the case then yes, you modern_medicine are to blame for the fascist bullshit happening around you.
I believe you have a poor understanding of what cartels are and why they exist, but yes using your example I can confidently say I actively work to alleviate the conditions that result in people self-medicating and have distanced myself from cartels and their activities as much as I am aware and capable of. Can you say the same?
I agree that “blame” may not be the right word. Is there an English word for “complicit through complacency”?
Yes, “complicit through complacency” is much better. I thought there were lots of single words that fit too. But I struggled to find any that didn’t imply active assistance.
I do what I can. But it doesn’t feel like enough. At the same time, most of it feels ineffective. In my case I have to weigh the saftey of my family against my ideology. It’s not fair to my kids to go and get myself locked up or worse.
And it clearly isn’t enough as things are getting worse, but also what I’m doing clearly isn’t enough either. Unfortunately, it’s impossible for one, or two, people to do enough. It’s just important you do what you can and remain cynical about what those limitations are.
I apologize if this felt like it was targeted explicitly at you, but I don’t see a path forward without aggressively corralling those who are doing “what is expected” vs “what they can” and I apologize if my attempts at pushing were misdirected or misplaced.
Keep on doing what your doing, if we all keep doing what we can we’ll get through this.
You think you’re being reasonable, but you’ve got rose tinted glasses on
Coppers should be taught de-escalation, but rarely are, especially in the USA based on what I see.