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@compostgoblin Please take a moment to think and tell me why, in your opinion, someone could come to hate cops.
Well, there are many reasons someone could come to dislike cops, but their legacy and ongoing patterns of brutality and racial discrimination both come to mind.
I live in a small town in the rural south.
The ‘community patrols’ would very quickly turn into KKK lynch mobs going after anyone that was ‘woke’.
Yeah, ACAB, but the alternative that would happen in most places is pretty bad too. There’s gotta be a 3rd way to keep people safe without using either cops as they exist now or vigilance committees.
I can also see community “policing” in cities devolve into chaos as a bunch of petty kings pop up in every neighbourhood.
The guys in those hypothetical lynch mobs are the cops today.
At least in this scenario you could get your buds and shoot back at the klan fuckers, maybe.
I wonder if they’d become a gang instead. Community police of their own
I mean, it think it’s the wrong question. I think the question is, what can we do to minimize the need for police? The problem there is it usually involves lifting up poorer communities and no one wants to supply these communities with the resources to do it.
Amen. What I find fascinating and difficult to swallow is impoverished (and non) people’s desire to have kids and not raise them, almost as if they are happy with their shit sandwich, and think “yeah” I’ll give this to a another human. Boy o boy have I seen deplorables breed when they are in no capacity to look after themselves. It comes across to me as a type of evil. The meat grinder is made from this stupidity.
Boy o boy have I seen deplorables breed when they are in no capacity to look after themselves.
This is why I decided I didn’t want kids many years ago. I can barely look after myself, I can’t imagine having to take care of kids.
The cruelest thing you can do to another person is to bring them into the world. If you’re already going to be that much of a monster the least you can do is fucking look after them, too.
Well said.
Agreed. It is multi step
You reduce the need for it, you reduce their military power. You give them better training and force them to use non lethal forces when possible (usually it is)
Stop breaking into people’s houses incorrectly and shooting them
Also forced body cameras and strict follow up
Police should be needed less, but police still need to be policed by the people
Why are so many people convinced the Police we have are the only ones we COULD have?
We don’t want NO Police
We want BETTER Police
Ive repeated this argument so many times.
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They need to have a FEDERAL licence to provide law enforcement. So you cant just move when you get in trouble.
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Each officer needs to carry their own “malpractice” insurance so the city/state doesnt have a financial interest in ignoring bad behavior.
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Make “Abuse of the public trust” a federal felony. Officer making bad judgement calls in the heat of the moment is one thing but calculated corruption should be a federal offence.
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I had an argument about this with a friend once. I was saying if we just abolish the police, private enterprise will probably step in to fill the gap. I don’t want that. I don’t want amazon offering policing services (as part of Prime. vomit).
I think the police need to be split up into smaller institutions, and have a lot less murder powers.
Someone needs to address the “Someone broke into my house and stole my TV” problem, without a profit motive and with accountability.
There should be something to address “My neighbor is screaming at his wife and I think he’s hitting her” that doesn’t involve some low empathy assholes with guns rolling up to mock the woman.
I don’t know how to fix this.
Cops are deliberately trained to be be fearful and quick to shoot. You start by reforming how cops are trained. Literally following how the military trains their troops would be a big improvement. This vet got fired for deescalating a situation, per his military training, but counter to his police training.
How the fuck is military training actually doing this better than police training… wow
Because the militarization of police is just them larping after watching too many war movies.
Strict hiring policies so you aren’t scraping the bottom of the barrel. Better and longer training pipelines so you’re getting career professionals instead of thugs. Better accountability and enforcement of regulations so they’re being held to standards consummate with their responsibilities. Letting beat cops police their own communities so they have a stake in things.
And this I think is unique to the US, getting rid of the mind boggling layers of law enforcement. In Australia, we have state and federal police. Not state, federal, county, city, campus, sherrifs, and whatever.
Mmm, not sure I like this better. If the majority in your community are filled with religious crazies suddenly you’re ruled by backwards ass religious laws from millenia ago. Laws and enforcement would be even more incoherent, not less. No matter who is enforcing the laws, we need ways to keep ALL people in power accountable regardless of how it’s organized and I don’t think that goes away in a more anarchist kind of world.
Couldn’t those community patrols be considered a type of police
Normally theyre called gangs. The thing that made the black panthers special is that as a cause it was killed before it deteriorated. A lot of gangs form to protect from other gangs, police corruption, and general sense of community.
Usually most folks aren’t willing to do things free, so it devolves as it grows. Loses the original basis for formation. It’s why christians is a confusing term, you have atheists, catholics, buddhists, etc. All lumped in while all can and are christian, there is degrees of severity.
Oh so like first it starts out protecting the community from issues but then it turns into “the crips have to pay” and now heroin to pay for a turf war…
That’s interesting
You start protecting the community but who is paying you, your rent, or your food? You have to start charging and now you’re another tax. Tensions rise. And yes this would impact drug trafficking which is usually lethal. Note, junkies are relatively safe, dont get between their drugs or stare and you are good.
Trying to do good is difficult because by definition, the only good thing you can do is retain the status quo. Any change will have negative repercursions.
A good goal quickly deteriorates when the power structure forces you to deal with the devil. And where does he reside?
Atheists and Buddhists aren’t christians? I was gonna say do you mean religious, but atheists aren’t religious either
Atheists can be christians by believing in the structure provided through it, atheism is just not believing in god.
I do not believe in a greater being, I believe in man. Even Jesus himself did not claim to be of god but of man, and that he was purely a messenger.
Buddhist’s can be primarily Christians as well, however they adhere not to just one guide of knowledge. That’s the weakness with my experience in western life, I was born christian. I saw buddhism as a differing way of life, while it really is more structural and philosophical to me than spiritual.
Dramatization and symbolism is lost when talking about something as complex as religion.
The bible itself is a collection of texts, your spiritualism and religion doesn’t end there. It is something you live, endure, question, and eventually absolve yourself of through determination. It’s more just a guise for talking about our mortality, consequences, acknowledgements, and the thereafter.
So in the wake of death, your own or any you love, you have to imagine them. You will miss them and wish it were true, in it you will find your spark. You will awaken the ability to see the suffering, phantoms and demons everyone carries. However in such suffering you will savor the most delicate of kindness, appreciate the little passing moments.
In that you awaken the
sharinganroyalty free eyeball to see something you couldn’t before. I don’t think it is god, rather passion for the nectar of life. Regardless of hardships.For context. Catholic raised. Buddhist by 11. Sikh by 18. Eventually found Sri Ramakrishna’s teachings in a little free library this year. All while atheist - and now I question that, as this book allowed me to believe something I never could.
I agree with you. What would be the use of those patrols if not to police behaviour?
Maybe someone with more historical knowledge could expand on the meaning of “Black Panther style community patrols”.
I think the difference is the idea of people from the community, with the consent of the community, policing said community. From the community, for the community. I think it’s a nice idea, but it really depends on the actual community what that would look like. More peaceful and inclusive in some places, horribly authoritarian and racist (even worse than US cops now) in others.
But yeah it’d just be different form of policing and those doing it could be just called police.
Without cops, who will throw people out on the street when they can’t pay rent?
Or who will arrest the folk giving less fortunate people food?I’ve never needed a cop for anything, and in the case of theft, I hardly expect the item back in any usable condition anyway.
If someone shoots me and runs off, the cops can’t unshoot me, or unbeat me up, or unrape me. They might beat me up just for asking for help. Who’s to say I get a good cop that day?
What we need is a police force of negotiators and social workers.
A police officer should only get a job after a mandatory time spent as a social worker and a expensive study of law and peaceful conflict resolving.
Before that: no weapons and no authority.
Also accountability: every bullet and every taser use has to be explained. Cams 24/7 on the job, disabling them should be a grounds for immediate expulsion.
Oh and of course, cops should no longer be above the law.
I think this would also scare away a lot of the people who become police officers for the wrong reasons.
Yes, I believe it could be possible to have good cops - it’s just not possible under the current system. Hell, the current system is a deterrent to good cops.
Can we get the slavery aspect far the fuck away from punishment as well? I’m sick of this country (America) acting like the moral arbiter of the world while we still practice slavery.
Cops dont responsibly handle the authority they have been given and they desperately need to be put under adult supervision. We cant count of either of the two political parties to do that. Its been that way for at least 100 years. So maybe getting rid of them and letting something new form is the only way. They are hopeless.
Keep me honest, isn’t the gangsta group called Crypts came from this?
Crips, which have been given the backronym “Community Resistance In Progress”.
But it doesn’t take much research to show they do not stand for the types of values you’re referring to.
Who needs cops anyway?
CHOP/CHAZ
Everybody just getting along and cooperating and not fucking with each other sounds dope too. So go ahead, make that happen and we won’t need cops. While you’re at it, lack of fires and accidental injuries would be super dope too. Got an ETA on those?
If that makes me sound like a hardline law-and-order type, guess again meme-brain, I’m just intelligent enough to know that seriously thinking we don’t need cops is idiotic.
Do you have evidence? A controlled study?
Also firefighters may be racist magas, but they provide a universal good with no downsides. I’ve never personally witnessed three firefighters gang up on a homeless person chilling on the sidewalk, for example. Very unaware of any firefighters trying to charge you a fee for not knowing your tail light was out.
A controlled study that proves crimes happen? LOL nope you got me there.
No, a controlled study where for example a small town decided to eliminate a majority of policing. No patrols, no presence except for 911 response, etc. crimes would still be reported (if someone breaks into your house you’ll still call) but without any of the active policing that this thread is about. How do the numbers compare?
A neighborhood in Seattle pretty much did what you’re talking about a few years ago, on a rudimentary zero-budget level. In fact I’ve been friends for years with one of the people who were deeply involved in it. But it wasn’t a “study” and I’m pretty sure nobody collected any statistics. And it only lasted a few months. I actually have no objection to it, what my comment said was that people aren’t going to do it. And look around you - the model is right there. But in a culture where fewer and fewer people even cook their own meals anymore, even fewer are willing to personally devote their valuable time to DIY law enforcement.
OP: [proposes alternatives]
You: “So you’re basically suggesting Mad Max”
Well, what are you doing right now? Feel free to organize your own DIY law enforcement. But doing social media is so much easier isn’t it? That’s EXACTLY why OP’s proposed alternative isn’t practical. That’s not a criticism against you or anyone else here, it’s just facing the truth. We could make OP’s vision a reality, but we won’t. Getting off your ass and doing it would prove me wrong, but a downvote just proves me right.
“You are using social media” isn’t the gotcha you think it is. I’m literally taking a dump at work right now.
Either a reply or a downvote proves you wrong.
Okay, but at some point you won’t be working or taking a dump, so you’ll be organizing that whole law enforcement thing and we don’t need cops, right? Good for you! Let me know how it works out!
Yes? I can’t emphasize enough how much this isn’t a gotcha. No offense but I won’t remember you for that long.
My point is that people could be doing the DIY law enforcement thing right now, and they aren’t. Reality speaks for itself. So either get off your ass and do it or STFU. What are you, 13? Blocking you dude.
Well now I’m sad he’ll never hear that people are, in fact, doing the things OP listed.
Your post makes it look like a binary choice between cop-filled reality and cop-free fantasy. But there are marked differences between how many cops (many = often more stupid, untrained, poorly selected, corrupt) a society needs and what activity is expected of them.
Existing societies also demonstrate a vastly different need for imprisoning people.
Myself, I think that prisoners per capita is a better indicator than cops per capita. The latter gives weird results heavily tilted towards microstates (lead by Vatican, Pitcairn Islands and Motserrat).
- Maximum of prisoners per capita: North Korea (undisclosed but estimated), El Salvador (1600 per 100K), Cuba (794), Rwanda (637), Turkmenistan (576), United States (541).
- Minimum of prisoners per capita: go and have a look, it’s interesting. The leading 5 have a trend towards microstates and very poor developing countries, but if one filters them out and chooses sizable countries with functioning economies, the first that comes across is Japan - with an incarceration rate of 33 per 100K. That’s 48 times less than El Salvador and 16 times less than the United States. The first European country on the list is Finland with 52 per 100K, indicating approximately what a “western style” society can achieve. The EU average seems to be around 100 per 100K. The highest rated EU country seems to be Poland with 194 per 100K.
Notably, the first somewhat sizable European country and western-type society on both lists is Finland. It has the lowest prisoners per capita in Europe (at 52 per 100K) and the lowest cops per capita in Europe at 132 per 100K. It is not a known haven of rampant crime - it has really low crime rates too. Apparently in some conditions, you can have few cops, few prisoners and limited crime.
My guess - I could be wrong - is that the quality and coverage of social security, education and health care are what actually make the difference. Most people don’t start criminal activity for fun. Contributing factors include desperate poverty, poor parenting, lacking education, mental illness and exposure to trauma, damage from disease and substance abuse, etc, etc. Lots of full prisons are probably a factor that contributes to criminality, by making a “higher education in crime” accessible to more people.
Very thoughtful, but your comment really should be addressed to OP and not to me. My comment was specifically a rely to, “Who needs cops anyway?” Not needing cops is the fantasy, needing cops is the reality. Sorry if you translated the word “cops” to “a cop-filled reality” but that wasn’t what I said or meant. Misinterpreting simple terms as an extreme version that would be easy to argue with seems very popular. I think we need the number of cops we need, not a regimented “cop-filled” (or prison-filled) world at all.
