Summary
Trump plans to lift the Biden administration’s freeze on supplying 2,000-pound bombs to Israel and reverse sanctions against Israeli settlers.
hey pro-Palestinian lemmings! where y’all at?
this is why you wouldn’t vote for Harris, right? when does he stop the killing again?
#when does it stop??
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
When would the killing stop under biden (or harris who was happy to continue his policies)? Pausing one fucking shipment isn’t the amazing stand for life that you think it is. Sure though, blame it all on Palestine and not the democrats refusing to listen to voters (on many issues, not just this one) during a fucking election. I’m sure if the other pro-genocide candidate got in, we’d all be living in fucking paradise.
the killing stopped under Biden now.
the killing stopped under Harris now.
#when will the killing stop under Trump?
tell us! when?? we were told it would stop of Harris lost!
Removed by mod
Biden, not once, ever, stated “full throated support for genocide”.
Removed for misinformation.
Sending billions in support of israel as they carry out genocide is full-throated support for genocide in my book. I never said he stated his support. He didn’t need to state it anyway because actions speak louder than words. Please do not use “misinformation” as a catch-all for opinions you disagree with.
is he president now? no? then it stopped under his control. the. fucking. end.
Trump in now, where’s the outrage, homeboy?
where’s the vitrol?
I don’t think you’ve got it in you to call him out on this. you’ve commented twice already and not once have you blamed Trump for restoring access to 2000 pound bombs.
and you won’t because you’re too weak to admit you were wrong. oh I remember you mother fucker…don’t even think I don’t remember you.
As it turns out, there are about 2,000 pounds of difference between Republicans and Democrats.
Wow, that’s surely going to both get the price of eggs down AND stop the genocide of Palestinians! How does he do it?
I mean there are two ways to stop the genocide. You can stop killing people or you can, how did he put it? “Finish the problem”
It’s probably the rapes that make him feel so young… Or maybe the felonies. I don’t know… There’s a lot to unpack here.
Whoa whoa “Genocide Joe” where did you come from where did you go, where did you come from “Genocide Joe.”
Crickets
I am just here waiting for the “Free Palestine” folks to show us the way with some real radical activism.
Not to beat the dead horse but… Those who said “I won’t vote Democratic because Gaza” were either lying or delusional.
In 2028 there won’t be any Gaza, what will be the next line?
This is the tragic truth.
The most frustrating part about it is that withholding votes was framed as a principled position. And I’m sorry, but that’s asinine. How many of those people who declared that they wouldn’t vote for the democratic ticket because of their action/inaction on Gaza actually did anything more than posting rants on social media? How many raised funds for aid? How many organized rallies, protests, or educational outreach? How many even so much as contacted their representatives?
It is either naivety or complacency to believe that national policy should change just because you and your friends sent around some memes. And it is callous indifference to base your vote on a single issue and then claim that you’re inhabiting the moral high ground.
If you yell into the void, you shouldn’t expect a response. And if you believe in an issue, either take action or acknowledge that it would be staggeringly arrogant to expect other people to put in work that you yourself won’t do.
I really tried to tell them, but the propaganda is insane.
I think most of them were state sponsored psyops or really shit trolls. I don’t think most actual real marginally rational thinking people would have such a dumb af take.
Trump being elected is enough proof for me to realize most people in our country have dumb af takes.
As if you need any additional evidence how .ml and their spinoffs are funded
You would think, and yet they’re still around parrotting the same narrative. Hell, there’s at least one in the comments of this very post.
Assuming that anyone with a contrary opinion, no matter how ridiculous you might feel it is, is being disingenuous is an easy way to underestimate them.
I don’t think most Americans care enough about Gaza for it to affect their vote (or for it to cause them to choose not to vote). Some, certainly, but not enough to have made a difference. This was about groceries being expensive.
The numbers seem to tell a different story, actually. Mind you, this is one poll and it’s among people who did not vote giving a reason for not voting after having not voted, but the numbers aren’t insignificant
It was a combined effort to suppress voter turnout. Provide every possible reason to tap into that bernie bro “the democrats deserve to lose because they betrayed me” mindset.
That fake “Bernie bro” mindset, you mean. No genuine Bernie bro failed to vote (D) in the general, by definition, because that’s what Bernie himself recommended.
TBH the Dems deserved to lose, but Trump deserved to lose much, much, much, much harder.
The problem being that means too many people don’t show up, and only the fanatics get a say. And they have a lot more than us.
That’s exactly my point. People should go and vote against fascism, but apparently they won’t.
And Harris wasn’t inspiring enough to get them out to vote for her instead of just against him.
Your point seemed to be “She sucks, maybe not as much as the other guy, but still sucks”, which is not exactly inspiring in and of itself. maybe you should do less to try and discredit the currently most viable defense we have against people like Trump.
You have serious problems if you needs additional inspiration beyond literal fascism.
They’ve already made inroads into the West Bank, Syria, and Lebanon, right?
Well, would you look at that, third-party protest voters / abstainers / “undecideds”: you saved Palestine. /s
How many Palestinian children have died so far with democrat supplied bombs again? You think you have a leg to stand on?
“but what if the genocide rubber stamp was still blue” is not a compelling argument.
The undecideds are about as dumb as the maggots. They were told, over and over, that they were effectively voting for a fascist. But they couldn’t imagine that the leopard would eat their faces. Now, that fucking guy will make “Genocide Joe” look like a god damn saint.
Refusing to hold Democrats accountable is also voting for Fascism. If your vote is 100% reliable to the Dems, they don’t have to do anything to win your vote. And thus, they can completely ignore you and everything you care about. The Dems have moved so far to the right that modern Republican Fascism doesn’t seem completely unreasonable to many people by comparison. After all, Democrats firmly embraced what was far-right immigration policy just a few years ago. Democrats have made a hard turn to the right. This has forced Republicans to move even further right into Fascism. And if things continue down this path, with Democrats never being held accountable, eventually both Democrats and Republicans will be overtly Fascist.
That is what happens if a party is never held accountable.
Refusing to hold Democrats accountable is also voting for Fascism.
As mentioned oh, so, so, so many times, voting for the least worst option doesn’t preclude holding them to account. That part comes after, once democracy is assured.
Except, people voted for cruelty and fascism to really stick it to the Dems. Now there’s worse fascism and no democracy.
Good job.
Feel proud.
That part comes after, once democracy is assured.
LOL, sure Jan. Did we just watch the same Biden presidency?
That part comes after, once democracy is assured.
When, precisely, did you expect that day to come?
And how, precisely, did “holding the Dems accountable” work out after 2016? Did they “learn their lesson”?
The primaries are where the accountability should happen. For the vast, vast majority of elections in the US the winner will be either the Democratic candidate or Republican candidate. And you can turn in primary ballot without voting for any of the candidates. Your participation is then a matter of public record, and campaign managers will be inclined to try and win your vote.
edit - you can also become an actual party member, maybe even a delegate, and vote on leadership.
The primaries are where the accountability should happen.
Democrats do not run democratic primaries. It’s why they invented superdelegates and fought for their presumed right to run dirty, undemocratic primaries in court.
It’s this simple. Dems knew since their primaries that voters wanted them to stop sending WMD’s to Israel. Multiple state level primaries had double-digit percentages of voters that voted “undecided” specifically to communicate that they wanted change on the Israeli genocide.
Democrats just shrugged their shoulders and ignored it.
Well I did say should. So what is your suggestion? Vote third party? By my quick scanning of this page there’s are <45 members of state legislatures around the country, out of >7,500 total state legislators. And 2 out of 535 US Congress members. Not voting? They don’t care. That’s just less time and money they have to spend trying to connect with a potential opposition voter.
Vote third party?
Yes, for starters.
Also, do some introspection. Democrats do not support democracy. Despite all the nice things they say, they are fascists. Voting against them is a moral act.
I’ve been saying it since June. I know I’m shouting into the void. Unless you’re willing to go full Player 2 or you’re a billionaire, you have no power here.
So how do you plan to succeed with third parties in the face of the cumulative failure of all third parties combined to win even 1% of the offices? In particular in contrast to the recent increase of progressive candidates running for and winning Democratic primaries?
Also, do some introspection.
I did, and that’s why I stopped voting for any 3rd parties in 2016. I had voted for candidates from all parties prior to then. Because they can’t win a large enough scale without electoral reform. And we won’t get that by losing all the elections.
they are fascists. Voting against them is a moral act.
So if we’re getting fascists either way (because again, the winners of >99% of elections around the country are going to be either the Democratic candidate or the Republican candidate), wouldn’t voting to prevent the ascension to power of the racist transphobes who are publicly voicing their desire to detransition transgender persons and denaturalize and deport citizens be the moral thing to do?
I’ve been saying it since June. I know I’m shouting into the void.
And I assume people like me have been responding to you the whole time. And your voices were enough to lose the election for the rest of us. So not much a void.
willing to go full Player 2 or you’re a billionaire
Sorry, I don’t understand the Player 2 reference. And since you don’t appear to have been paying attention, the billionaires are all winning now (they wanted Trump, they got Trump).
That’s a good point. My vote was pragmatic over principle. The dems need to be held accountable, but they won’t. There needs to be a major overhaul of the party, but realistically I don’t see that happening any time soon. For the foreseeable future this is what we are stuck with.
That whole be the change thing is horseshit in this day and age.
So hold them accountable for literally any other office besides president when the opponent is a literal fascist?
So never?
Are Republicans going to stop being Fascist at any time in the foreseeable future? They ran a fascist in 2016, 2020, and 2024. And they have a long line of potential future candidates.
“Don’t hold them accountable while running against a fascist” == “never hold them accountable.”
And there’s no point in going after officers other than the president on this issue. It’s not like governors have much control over foreign policy.
Yes, “held accountable” because you can’t imagine a world in which geopolitics means you can’t just cut off all support to an ally with an “or else”.
The only thing worse than the morons too stupid to see that Trump is going to do what he says, are the morons who think that you can just drop all aid to Israel overnight and nothing will happen. Do any of you have ANY idea how intertwined both our military and tech sectors are?
Reagan threatened Israel with cutting off all aid, unless they play ball. And they did.
Without the US supporting Israel its other allies would also abandon it quickly.
So all the US has to do to make Israel do what the US says is withhold support until Israel obeys.
What Biden did instead was throwing the US to the feet of Israel, at best rambling and making token gestures. So the US halted 2.000 pound bombs? That surely didnt stop Israel from annihilating people in Gaza with the other bombs the US kept delivering.
The only thing worse than the morons too stupid to see that Trump is going to do what he says, are the morons who think that you can just drop all aid to Israel overnight and nothing will happen.
That’s one of my favorite excuses for Democrats breaking promises and/or doing nothing: It’s hard. (As if we shouldn’t expect the people we elect to do hard things.)
And yes, when Israel wants more WMD’s to perpetrate a genocide, I would expect a conscientious president or legislators to do something about it and say no.
They said the same thing about Apartheid South Africa. You think it was easy to cut ties with them? They were also tied into our military industrial complex.
And I find the argument “but it’s going to be haaard” despicable.
Negotiations to end Apartheid took 6 years (1987 to 1993)! The US started placing sanctions in 1986, and the transition away from Apartheid didn’t start until 1990. Apartheid wasn’t fully ended until 1994.
They said it was hard to cut ties with them, and they were right. Global politics is harder than, “just do it.” Biden didn’t solve the genocide in a year, but he was working with a more difficult situation than just cutting off money/weapons. If he does that, then every country around Israel starts taking advantage of it and he has a much bigger situation to deal with. I don’t agree with how little Biden did to stop the genocide. I don’t agree with Harris not being vocal about putting even more pressure on Israel. But there is more at play than just “don’t send weapons.”
Voters weren’t expecting Biden to issue a complete trade embargo with Israel. What they were expecting was for Biden to FOLLOW US LAW and stop shipping arms to Israel, a country flagrantly violating law. There is a universe of possibilities between “stop sending Israel bombs on our dime” and “turn Israel into Cuba.”
You’ll notice that started with sanctions. “There will be a long time between pressure and results” isn’t an argument to not start the pressure.
Refusing to hold Democrats accountable is also voting for Fascism.
They really are out here pretending that Genocide Joe didn’t enthusiastically help Israel stack corpses for the last 15 months of his presidency, literally down to the final day.
So glad they helped save Palestine, and definitely weren’t just eating up propaganda to get 🥭 reelected.
If by saving, they meant “it literally won’t exist” anymore, then yeah. 2000 pound bombs are good for leveling entire city blocks.
Most of Gaza is already leveled and uninhabitable. They didn’t need 2000 pound bombs.
Think of all the time they save of demolition services! /s
They’ve been dropping these 2,000lb bombs in Palestine and several of their neighboring countries for quite some time now. It’s pretty odd that people are trying to act all self-righteous about this when Trump is just continuing the exact same policy that Biden was.
Trump is just continuing the exact same policy that Biden was
This article is literally him reversing a Biden policy.
This “article” is literally two sentences long and makes no reference to the thousands of 2,000lb bombs we’ve been sending Israel this entire time.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
I love that your defense here is: “Look at that, you’re just as big of a piece of shit as we are.”
But in reality, they’re objectively more moral than you are in voting against genocide. That it may happen anyway doesn’t change that.
Is it really “voting against genocide” when they voted against all the arms shipment pauses that are now being overturned? They voted against an administration, that administration lost, and now the winner has hit the ground running making the genocide immediately worse. What’s “objectively more moral” about increasing arms shipments to genociders?
There are many more issues beyond Gaza. The environment, healthcare, social rights, immigration. They are complicit in all of it.
Yesterday Trump declared “War on Transgender” and his desire to eradicate transgenderism in the US. Musk threw a literal Nazi salute. They immediately put out an EO targeting trans people. Non-voters and 3p voters are complicit in this and in what is about to happen to trans people in the US.
Or course, they don’t have the moral stain of a Trump supporter but “not a literal Nazi” shouldn’t be the baseline it is.
So why should someone care about any of these issues, while you demand them to ignore the issue they care about?
Why do we accept the Democrats pitting transrights against arab childrens right to life?
Because these issues much more directly affect people in the US, and by extension, you (assuming you’re even FROM the US)
Personally I’m a trans immigrant. In part BECAUSE of protest voters, my new priority over literally everything else is my own survival. It’s not that I don’t care about Gaza, my heart breaks for the Palestinians affected by the genocide, but I don’t have energy left to devote to that fight. That is by design as a fractured population is less able to work together.
What you mean by that is they affect you. There are Palestinians in the United States, Jewish people who want to quash the wave of antisemitism this will trigger, and other Americans who would like to not ignite another wave of anti-Americanism is the Arab world.
You don’t have to prioritize the anti-war movement over the issues that are closest to your own life and safety, but you don’t get to demand that they sideline the issues that are closest to their lives for you. Solidarity goes both ways.
Voting for more death to protest genocide is a vote FOR GENOCIDE you dumbass
By not voting, you voted for genocide under Trump. There is no neutrality against fascism, and there is no nonparticipation. You’re either against them or you’re with them.
Genocide under Trump vs. genocide under Biden isn’t a big moral difference. Your argument is supposed to be that the other moral issues are critically important, not that the flavor of genocides are important.
That is my argument, which you know, which is why you’re trying to pretend it isn’t. Does this normally work on people or something?
“there’s zero difference between mostly good with a little bad, and an absolute shitstorm of horrors”
“Genocide” as “a little bad” is quite the fucking choice.
A lot of genocide, a lot of oppression, a lot of revoking human rights, a lot of political persecution, a lot shifting blame, is quite the fucking choice
And Biden actually pushed for ceasefire and got one. Trump doesn’t.
And Biden actually pushed for ceasefire and got one.
A naive genocide apologist, what a shock. Israeli commentary on the right is that there’s not much reason to still be there as they’ve pretty much destroyed everything already. The time to push for a ceasefire was this time last year, and then to actually do something to bring it about. And it’s not even a real cease fire! They’re still killing people! They’re a vast distance between the things politicians say and the things that actually happen.
I voted for Kamala, but you have to be pretty dense to think that there is any meaningful difference between how Kamala and Trump would have handled Palestine. They’re both full-on Zionists. Giving them some bigger bombs won’t change things much. They already flatten entire neighborhoods at a whim.
If two candidates will likely both be abominable on an issue you care about, you might as well vote to hold the one representing the party that has already committed genocide accountable.
You realize the conversation started because Trump reversed the ban on the sale of some type of bombs which Harris wouldn’t have done, right? Because right away it shows a pretty meaningful difference.
Evidence suggests the 2000 lb. bombs were not the key factor in Israel committing genocide.
you have to be pretty dense to think that there is any meaningful difference between how Kamala and Trump would have handled Palestine
Kamala called for a ceasefire.
Trump said Biden should “Let [Israel] go and let [Israel] finish it.” and now he’s saying we’re going to give Israel bigger bombs to do it while removing economic sanctions on Israeli occupiers.
How can you say there is no meaningful difference?
Kamala called for a ceasefire.
So did Biden. She also said she couldn’t think of anything Biden had done that she’d have done differently. There’s a good reason people were skeptical about her being any different from what’s already happening.
I’m not sure how telling me that she’s the same as Biden is any kind of rebuttal to what I said. I responded to someone saying they believed Kamala and Trump would have no meaningful difference in their handling of it. I replied by linking to quotes from those two people showing a markedly different attitude (one says “stop shooting” and the other says “keep shooting until it’s done”). And now we’re seeing that Trump, as President, is carrying out actions consistent with what he said as a candidate, which were and are the opposite of what Kamala was saying before the election.
Because Biden was not meaningfully opposing the genocide but would say he wanted peace. We can’t know whether Harris was actually lying when she said she didn’t want to change anything, but saying she’s in favor of a cease fire and saying she didn’t want to act any differently than Biden isn’t a contradiction. He said he wanted a cease fire, and then he armed and shielded the genocide. We already have the template for how that works.
You still are ignoring the fact that we were comparing Kamala and Trump.
We already have the template for how that works.
And Trump said as a candidate he thought we should do even less than Biden, and now is doing exactly that. So where in all of this am I supposed to have expected that Kamala would have been the same as Trump?
At some point the genocide is bad enough that there’s not much difference in further degrees. Doing even less than Biden isn’t a whole lot less, because Biden was barely doing anything and none of it seems to have been at all effective. An advanced military with unrestrained targeting and an infinite supply of 500 lb. bombs can destroy things pretty completely.
I despise Trump, but I do not buy that argument for a second. You’re clearly taking a meaning that you’re inventing on your own, not from the text itself. “Let Israel go and finish it” could just as easily be interpreted as “they need to wrap this war up and reach a cease fire.”
Kamala called for a ceasefire, but her and Biden wouldn’t lift a pinky finger to actually produce such a cease fire. Trump seems to have actually succeeded at getting a ceasefire.
Trump didn’t do fuck all to get a ceasefire. The Biden admin negotiated it for months, but Israel held off right until the end (ala Reagan and Iran). Now that trump is in and removing all sanctions and weapon blocks, Israel is right back at “operations” in Gaza. Just remember that everything that happens from here on out should be hung around your neck and other Trump voters / sit it out voters. There’s never been a peaceful way out of fascism.
You’re clearly taking a meaning that you’re inventing on your own, not from the text itself. “Let Israel go and finish it” could just as easily be interpreted as “they need to wrap this war up and reach a cease fire.”
I don’t need to make anything up. Trump followed up his words as a candidate with his actions as president to resume giving Israel the bigger bombs that Biden stopped giving them and to remove financial sanctions on Israeli occupiers.
Kamala called for a ceasefire, but her and Biden wouldn’t lift a pinky finger to actually produce such a cease fire.
I mean sure if you ignore the fact that Biden stopped shipping these bigger bombs and tried using financial sanctions then yeah, they didn’t lift a finger.
Trump seems to have actually succeeded at getting a ceasefire.
Trump himself said he’s not confident the ceasefire will hold, and by some accounts Israel has already violated it
you have to be pretty dense to think that there is any meaningful difference between how Kamala and Trump would have handled Palestine.
This is just blatantly disingenuous. It is not aligned with reality. You’re either delusional or you’re pushing a false narrative intentionally.
Yes leftists are the problem. Not the half of the country that willingly and happily voted for this.
Edit: Is there even any evidence that having protest voters vote for Kamala would’ve changed anything? Since I’m getting dogpiled here I want to clarify I was not a protest voter but everyone on Lemmy and Reddit keeps sharing this exact same sentiment
No, there isn’t. They just want to blame the left for centrism failing. Arabs and anti-war sentiment are convenient and evergreen “bad guys” in centrist politics and one that has been actively reinforced by the media since the genocide began. It’s a convenient scapegoat for an across the board failure of a centrist campaign.
And if this was actually the linchpin, then it wasn’t exactly a big surprise. The whole movement was trying to raise the issue and was repeatedly ignored.
Both are the problem. Try harder.
Not all leftists are this problem. Just the ones who didn’t vote for Kamala in an otherwise winnable state.
I agree with that.
That and one issue voters, and third party voters.
Where do you draw the line? The problem with “vote Blue no matter who” is that you give the Democrats more and more license to drift further and further right.
Kamala thought wrongly that she could completely abandon the progressive base. She fully embraced conservative positioning on Israel, the US border, and other issues. She ran a right wing campaign, compromising issue after issue to appeal to centrist Republicans.
Kamala’s degeneracy was only possible because of the attitude you espouse. Because as long as progressives are willing to “vote Blue no matter who,” there is nothing to prevent Democrats from drifting ever-further to the right.
The modern political landscape exists precisely because of the fact that for decades, progressives have been voting “Blue no matter who.” Democrats haven’t had to work hard to secure their base; they’ve taken them for granted. This has allowed Democrats to slip further to the right. As Democrats have slipped further right, Republicans have responded by moving into outright Fascism.
You are unwilling to ever hold Democrats accountable. And by doing so, you guarantee that eventually the presidential race will be “KKK vs neo-Nazis,” as Democrats themselves drift into Fascism.
You’re mixing up cause and effect
Yes it’s not the best strategy to appeal to the right, but the truth is their policies were more popular, Trump didn’t win on any tangible proposal, he won because of people staying home because they didn’t think he’d be that dangerous + people voting for Trump because the were convinced he’d be the one to deliver the policies they wanted (often the democrat’s policies which Trump took credit for) + straight propaganda from billionaire owned newspapers
The real fix isn’t changing the policies and all that, it’s better outreach and showing how their actions have directly helped people and how Trump achieved nothing positive
Also is very very weird when Biden has been the most progressive US president ever to talk about the whole party slipping to the right.
“Right” is relative to cultural median. Trump isn’t a more progressive Republican than past candidates just because he’s scapegoating trans people instead of gay people.
Im not going to refrence every point you made. I do agree with a lot of it.
I suppose this is my line: Now is the time for the 3rd party conversations, and actual action. Not two months before a general election. Not one 3rd party candidate put the work in this last four years, they just suddenly pop up right before the election with nothing in thier moving van. They were just on the street corner asking for money. Where are they now?
The R’s and D’s are where they are partly because they’ve spent so long putting the work into having a political party. For better or worse.
Democrats are the ones that need to try harder
Vote for better Democrats in the primaries (show when an incumbent won the general after a contested primary and convention before complaining about the lack of challengers in the 2024 Democratic presidential primaries).
What’s with all the people who are so aggressively trying to make sure everybody learns the wrong lesson?
Look at her numbers compared to Biden and look at Trump’s numbers compared to his numbers last elections. People didn’t come out for Harris, which was essentially them supporting Trump as the end result is his election.
The hero has returned to save no one and sell more bombs.
I can’t find the will to make a leopards/faces joke about this. This is exactly what we told people who wouldn’t vote for Harris because of “gEnOcIdE jOe” bullshit.
Biden made real efforts to prevent the Israeli government from committing genocide. They failed, but they tried. Now we’ve got an absolute monster in charge who is going to outright empower the genocide.
If you voted for Trump, voted for a third party, or refused to vote… FUCK YOU. You own this.
Biden made real efforts to prevent the Israeli government from committing genocide.
Okay I don’t have the energy to refute to this stuff anymore, so lemme just ask: Do you seriously believe the president of the united states, the single largest benefactor of Israeli regional hegemony, doesn’t have the ability to enforce its own laws and prevent violations of international law by its protectorate?
It’s a much, much more complicated situation than you’re presenting. Biden was trying to thread the needle between “deny Israel weaponry” (end result: Opportunistic invasion by Israel’s neighbors) and “give Netanyahu all the weapons he wants” (end result: what we’re about to see with these gigantic, city-block-destroying bombs).
How would you do it?
what we’re about to see with these gigantic, city-block-destroying bombs
About to see?
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
Oh, it’s the “but what about the Jews” argument. You do realize Israel’s whole problem with its neighbors is their treatment of Palestinians, right? If Israel can’t stop its apartheid and make real.peace with their neighbors then they deserve to get invaded. Their apartheid state isn’t worth more than the at least 200 thousand Palestinians who died in Israel’s genocide. I’ll also point out that Israel has the most advanced military in the region, so the idea that Israel can’t resist an invasion is wrong.
Do you think Israel should be destroyed?
Yeah, why not? Again, apartheid states don’t deserve to exist. Also I’ll note that this is not the same as “should Israelis be all mercilessly slaughtered”, that’s a different question with a different answer.
Its not complicated at all when multiple international human rights organizations credibly found Isreal was committing war crimes and the US already has a law preventing the sale of arms to nation’s credibly accused of war crimes. Biden was the cheif executive all he had to do was execute a law that was already on the books. Neither the SC nor Congress would have had any say.
Stop carrying water for genocide financiers who had every opportunity to do something different.
That’s not an answer, and I’m not “carrying water for genocide financiers.” I never once excused or denied Israel’s behavior. Netanyahu responded to a horrendous terrorist attack by turning the dials on “horrendous” and “terror” up to 11. He’s a monster and a war criminal and should spend the rest of his life in prison.
Now then, how would you do it? Put yourself in the president’s shoes. You need to come up with a solution that allows Israel to continue to exist and not be destroyed by, say, Iran… AND allows the Palestinians to survive. Cut off all weapons, goodbye Israel. Give Israel a blank check, goodbye Palestine. What do you try to do?
I gave you the solution, it is an answer. Follow the law as written, Israel is not above the law. You keep jumping through hoops to say we can’t follow the law and then claim you don’t carry water for them? Fuck all the way out of here with that cognitive dissonance, you’re practically hasbara.
Well, thankfully the alternative is going to stop Israel on it’s tracks and… Oh wait a minute…
This is exactly what we told people who wouldn’t vote for Harris because of “gEnOcIdE jOe” bullshit.
What that things would continue on as they have been for well over a year now? Where is the “leopards ate my face” aspect of this?
Biden made real efforts to prevent the Israeli government from committing genocide. They failed, but they tried.
What efforts were those? Strongly worded phone calls and “red lines” that were constantly crossed and redrawn, while simultaneously standing alone in blocking UN and NATO resolutions against Israel?
who is going to outright empower the genocide.
Can you explain how a genocide that we’ve been actively supporting for the past 15 months is now being “empowered?”
The article is literally stating that Trump is giving the green light to giving Israel more powerful bombs to genocide with, and also to give Israeli West Bank occupiers their access to US financial resources again.
We’ve already been giving them these bombs.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
Your link is published in June of 2024 and states:
The Biden administration has paused one shipment of the 2,000-pound bomb, citing concern over the impact it could have in densely populated areas in Gaza, but U.S. officials insist that all other arms deliveries continue as normal. One 2,000-pound bomb can rip through thick concrete and metal, creating a wide blast radius.
Here’s a link from July of 2024
The U.S. in May paused a shipment of 2,000-pound and 500-pound bombs due to concern over the impact they could have in Gaza
I can’t find anything saying we resumed shipment of 2,000 pound bombs in the remainder of 2024. So it seems to be true Trump is now reversing Biden’s [since May 2024] policy of withholding these bombs.
It also states that Biden sent over ten thousand 2,000lb bombs before pausing that single shipment. I don’t understand why you’re trying to split hairs here as if it makes any difference (irrespective of the 500lb bombs continuing to be shipped, the $20 billion shipment of fighter jets, bombs, and missles in August, and the $8 billion weapons shipment he approved two weeks ago).
I don’t understand why you’re trying to split hairs here as if it makes any difference
Because this comment thread is about whether Trump’s actions are empowering the Israelis. It’s apparent to me that most people are using a different definition of empowering than I am.
- to give official authority or legal power to
- Something that is empowering makes you more confident and makes you feel that you are in control of your life
Even though these actions don’t have a large practical impact on their military capability, or financial means, it does send the message that Trump isn’t interested in placing even performative restraint on Israel. Thus, he is empowering them to do even more.
Well if we’re splitting hairs, how does the ceasefire fall into your definition of empowering the Israelis? That’s not something we’ve seen at any point in the past 15 months of slaughter.
I don’t think Trump really deserves credit for it, but Biden surely doesn’t. Not only did he allow them to cross red line after red line while supplying them with money and weapons the entire time, but he also blocked numerous UN resolutions on the matter while standing alone with Israel.
The occupiers are the state of Israel. Biden had some very limited sanctions against specific extremists who weren’t also Americans, but no one in their right mind thought that was somehow stopping the occupation.
The occupiers are the state of Israel.
Yes, that what I said, though I can see how the ordering of my words could be ambiguous.
Biden had some very limited sanctions
And Trump is removing them. Therefor Trump is, in an objective and literal sense, empowering those people subjected to those sanctions by removing sanctions that Biden had put in place.
Those sanctions didn’t actually do anything about the occupation. It’d be like sanctioning some random ultra-Z Russians rather than their leadership or institutions and acting like it’s curbing the occupation of Crimea. A few specific Israelis couldn’t bank with the United States, but they can just route through American-Israelis in their ranks instead. Them specifically banking wasn’t in any way important to the occupation.
Lifting the sanctions by Trump is bad, but more on the symbolism than the impact.
Trump could have said hey this sanction isn’t working, we need to strengthen it so that it does. But he instead said get rid of this sanction entirely. I get that you’re saying “well it didn’t really work and they had access to it anyway.” I do. But by your own account they had to go through extra steps to get it and now they don’t. That’s empowering. Even if just in the psychological sense that they now get to think “hey Trump is doing things to make it easier for me to keep occupying this land.” They now know that Trump is aiding them, so that gives them a greater sense of purpose and power to continue. And now they get more of the bigger bombs with which to do it.
This is just such a minimal impact it’s hard to get worked up about it. It’s wrong and it’s bad and it’s worse, but we have not lost a force for good in losing Bidenism. Bidenism with respect to Israel was evil. And Trump is eviler, but on this issue, there’s really not much worse it can get. On many many other issues Trump is incomparably worse, but no one should pretend Biden was in any way a bulwark against genocide and occupation.
This very story demonstrates it. In a raft of reversing Biden policies, the only things he could do for Israel was unrestricting a single bomb and removing some token sanctions. That’s the sum of Biden’s efforts to restrain Israel.
He’s approving one shipment (Israel has been using 2000 pound bombs since October 7th and I haven’t heard anything about them stopping after that shipment was paused) and lifting sanctions on the four West Bank settlers Biden had sanctioned. This will only hurt Palestinians about as much as the original moves by Biden had helped them, which is to say: not at all.
From Oct 7 2023 to Jun 28 2024 (the date of the reuters article that is being posted) we had shipped thousands of those bombs. We paused a shipment in May of 2024 (stated in that reuters articale), and here’s an article from July of 2024 saying we still had not shipped any of them
And I’ve found nothing indicating we have sent any more 2k pound bombs since May of 2024. So if we had, please provide a source reporting it.
Perhaps we should try to agree on what empowering means, though:
- Something that is empowering makes you more confident and makes you feel that you are in control of your life
- to give official authority or legal power to
Trump’s actions are empowering the genocide because they are clearly supportive of both Israel’s bombing and occupation.
And I’ve found nothing indicating we have sent any more 2k pound bombs since May of 2024. So if we had, please provide a source reporting it.
Apparently there haven’t been any shipments since may, so my bad there.
Trump’s actions are empowering the genocide because they are clearly supportive of both Israel’s bombing and occupation.
I mean the problem is that this doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. You either do things or you don’t, things like empowering or slamming or come to Jesus moments are all rhetoric and rhetoric only matters when it starts affecting the real world. We’ll have to see if the ceasefire holds; if it does then it makes sense (in US foreign policy terms, I of course hate it) for Trump to continue shipments, if not then we can start talking about leopards eating faces. The settler sanctions had zero effect on the real world, so they don’t matter no matter how “empowering” lifting them may be.
Can you explain how a genocide that we’ve been actively supporting for the past 15 months is now being “empowered?”
It’s right there in the headline. We’re sending 2,000lb bombs that weren’t being sent before.
Well that’s what happens when you rely on headlines and literal two sentence long “articles” for information because that’s completely false. We’ve been sending them thousands of these bombs along with the jets to use them for quite some time now.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
Trump appears to have pushed Netanyahu to agree to a ceasefire, which Biden failed to do. I wouldn’t be surprised if the delivery of these bombs was part of the backroom deal between Trump and Netanyahu which led to the ceasefire.
I don’t know what will happen after this ceasefire expires, but until then it’s a little early for those who criticized Biden’s policy on Israel to criticize Trump’s.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the delivery of these bombs was part of the backroom deal between Trump and Netanyahu which led to the ceasefire.
I can’t deny that when seeing the news and timing my first thought was of Reagan and the Iran hostage crisis.
I don’t think this is the same thing unless Trump told Netanyahu to delay the ceasefire, and I haven’t heard anyone claim that he did.
No it fucking isn’t, what with Israel set to receive 2,000 pound bombs that can level a city block.
I love how now you’re arguing that supplying weapons to Israel is a grave sin. How do you feel about supplying 500 pound bombs that can simply level a building?
Biden did not try. Palestinians were doomed either way
This article is literally about one of Biden’s efforts to rein in the violence. He did try. Now go ahead and excuse Trump freeing up 2,000-pound bombs for Israel, and how that’s better for Palestine than it would be if Harris had won. Good luck.
He also bypassed congress twice to give billions of aid to Israel. Nobody is excusing trump freeing 2000 pound of bomb to Israel
He did not “try.” This is just a weak attempt at whitewashing recent history.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
“We tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas” energy. It’s almost if Palestine was doomed either way. Heck of a lot cheaper to not send bombs to Israel
Lying about Biden trying “nothing” doesn’t make it OK that you carried water for Trump.
Now that is a lie, anyone who thinks Biden actually tried to stop the genocide is either not paying attention or flat out lying. Not everyone who opposes aiding an active genocide carried water for trump. Believe it or not you can be vocal about being against trump and genocide
This is a very simple trolley problem. Do nothing and the Trump train runs over a lot more people. Vote fore Biden and a lot less folks will day. Arguing for the Trump trolley (which you are doing) is foolish.
The setup is correct, but calling the problem “very simple” just means you don’t understand the trolley problem.
If you think that what I said was in support of trump, you are part of the reason trump is in office again. There is no trolley; there be only genocide or we’re sorry still genocide
Okay, so even if Biden didn’t try what good did voting for Trump or not voting at all due for our country and or Israel?
What? Biden didn’t try. You don’t have to vote for trump or not vote at all, to understand that.
Hehe. As planned. Thanks to people who refused to vote for Kamala. Leopards don’t see political parties, all faces taste the same.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-has-sent-israel-thousands-2000-pound-bombs-since-oct-7-2024-06-28/
Can you explain what’s changed?
What’s changed is all hope for cancelling weapons to Israel is gone. Kamala, while certainly not a great option, could at least be pressured.
You were foolish to have hope in the first place because if tens of thousands of innocent children getting blown into little pieces wasn’t enough to stop weapon sales, nothing is. Thinking that Harris “could be pressured” is just magical thinking because she, nor Biden, had any intention of stopping their aid to Israel to the point that they were willing to hand over control to the Republicans rather than even saying anything negative about Israel’s conduct and their participation in it.
Well, you’re not wrong. But Trump will make things over there (and locally) significantly worse in the long run. Yes, worse than it is now. All the while talking about progress, and how much better things are.
In the end, all the land will be handed over to Israel, and developers will turn it into a resort town. Anyone left alive will be a servant to the wealthy.
And my hope was “could be pressured” as opposed to “no chance in hell.” We cut our nose of to spite our face.
Are you simply a troll? If everything is hopeless than why do you pretend to care?
I didn’t say “everything is hopeless” I said that Biden, Harris, and Trump were never going to do anything but aid in this genocide.
“You were foolish to have hope in the first place”
This is the trolley problem. Harris was the path of less suffering, simple as that.
A slightly bigger bomb won’t change anything materially on the ground in Gaza. The only significant change recently has been a cease fire. Whether it will hold or not is as yet unknown. But at least so far, Trump has somehow actually managed to be better on Gaza than Biden. Trump has shown a willingness to actually use the carrots and sticks of US foreign policy to produce outcomes. Biden offered unconditional support to Israel, while Trump seems to have forced them to come to the peace table by threatening to withhold support. In other words, Trump did what Biden’s base had been begging him to do for a year.
It’s possible all this falls apart. And it is possible that Trump will prove far worse, for example by allowing an annexation of the West Bank. But so far at least, Trump has actually been a lot better for the Palestinians than Biden. Biden and Harris fundamentally do not accept that Israel should ever be held accountable for anything.
I don’t think Trump did the cease fire out of moral concerns; I’m sure it was purely self-serving on his part. But he was actually willing to use the US’s various carrots and sticks to force through a cease fire agreement. That is something Biden never had the balls to do.
Trump didn’t do anything. He has no control over Israel. He did nothing for this cease fire. I’m sure he would love to take credit one day and not the next.
[CITATION NEEDED]
He’s had people involved in backroom negotiations for months. Yes, it is a dirty tactic. This has a lot of undertones of Reagan’s deal with the Iranians. He didn’t have great intentions in negotiating a ceasefire, but he did manage to do it. And Trump has shown a willingness in the past to hold US military aid as a stick to change the behavior of allies. It’s reasonable to think he did the same thing here.
The US DOES have substantial control over Israel. Reagan for instance dramatically affected Israel’s behavior by withholding weapons. Biden was more permissive of Israel than Reagan was.
That is certainly possible, but any involvement from him would have been because he wanted to gain personal wealth or power. I’m sure you know this, but people need to remember that anything that Trump is doing to hold Israel in check has nothing to do with helping Gaza or the Palestinians. He doesn’t care. I do think that he’s very interested in developing on that land. If you recall, a while back there was something going around about Jared Kushner being involved with development in Gaza. I’m not sure what came of that and I don’t remember the exact details.
He sold the West Bank for 100m to Adelson. The genocide won’t stop their focus is just shifting temporarily. It’s not a win, Biden could’ve got them to agree on those terms too. Just like he could’ve ended the Ukraine war if he just told Ukraine to give up and concede a chunk of land.
I was under the impression that:
According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), the US accounted for 69% of Israel’s imports of major conventional arms between 2019 and 2023.
And that:
In May 2024, the US confirmed it had paused a single consignment of 2,000lb and 500lb bombs over concerns Israel was going ahead with a major ground operation in the southern Gaza city of Rafah. But Biden immediately faced a backlash from Republicans in Washington and from Netanyahu who appeared to compare it to an “arms embargo”. Biden has since partially lifted the suspension and not repeated it.
From Biden plans to send $8bn arms shipment to Israel - BBC - 4 January 2025
Yet the memes, jokes and everything that gets through to the non politics junkies was about Elon’s salute.
Almost like it was a perfect distraction for people to get enraged by while ignoring the serious issues.
“it can’t get worse tho…”
See this thread for why D’s will never learn, and do not deserve to govern. Still blaming everyone they failed to motivate.
“You should have accepted the continuation of the slow D genocide. Now you’ll get the extra double R genocide, and it’s all your fault!”
This is why progressives abstained; to let Trump destroy the corporate-whore duopoly and charade of “democracy” in America. It wasn’t under some fantasy that R’s would be better for Gaza, America, or the planet. It was because the D’s are captured by the corporate oligarchy — thus will never offer meaningful change — and spent the last few decades helping the R’s sow the seeds for fascism, building the surveillance state and MIC, destroying the financial and housing security of the working class, etc.
Eventually some victims will stop accepting the abuse, and lash out at their abusers; even if it means much worse abuse or death.
Well it’s a good thing the genocide was stopped. Because it would be awfully embarrassing to grandstand on that single issue and have no result while simultaneously making the lives of thousands of others worse.
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I said either side resulted in genocide, and the R’s would be worse, but I’m guessing you are reactionary without reading my comment… Nice strawman though.
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I’m not American, and I would’ve voted for the lesser of two evils if I were, so you’re preaching to the choir. I’m just a messenger.
But do continue complaining about the left and proving that you’ve learned nothing, because that’s worked out well for you so far. The proof is in the fascist dictatorship!
I’m not American, and I would’ve voted for the lesser of two evils if I were, so you’re preaching to the choir. I’m just a messenger.
That’s fair - comment retracted.
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Eventually some victims will stop accepting the abuse, and lash out at their abusers; even if it means much worse abuse or death.
Of course, if we wait for that to happen, we’ll already be well under the bootheel.
If you need a fully fledged fascist autocracy to happen before you get off your ass and do something… you’ve already failed.
Yea but at least we don’t have GeNOCiDe JoE and that damn BlUemAgA in power!!!/S
Gaza: fucked.
Immigrants: fucked.
LGBT: fucked.
Democracy: fucked to death.
Totally real internet “leftists”: совершенство
I thought he paused all foreign support for 90 days? Oh wait….
