Less than 1% of the world are vegans though. So 99% of people paying that are using it. Quite rare for more things in governance.
We’re all paying for things others benefit from. And yeah, I’m 100% against subsidizing meat. But the reason your food is expensive is because the vegan demographic is considered to be easily over charged for “specialty” overly packaged marketing heavy food products.
Also: people buying organic meatless groceries at Whole Foods-Amazon store won’t save the planet. Ever.
I’m not a vegan, but that’s not the right way to think about subsidies. It’s not about whether someone is a “meat eater” or a “vegan”. It’s about incentivizing consumption. The person eating meat once or twice a week subsidizes the person eating meat everyday. The more meat you eat, the more money society pays. Many people would cut back on eating meat if they had to pay the true cost.
But vegans are direct evidence that meat and animal products are not a necessity and are purely a choice. That choice is wasteful, has ethical implications towards animals, highly polluting and far less healthy.
So what is the subsidy for? It’s like subsidising candy, cigars or alcoholic beverages. It doesn’t make sense anymore with the knowledge of today.
Just because a group of people who have to massively inconvenience themselves and spend four times longer eating their daily calories than someone who gets their protein from meat can do it doesn’t mean that meat is suddenly a “choice” and not necessary.
That’s like saying because some people can ride their bicycles everywhere that cars and public transit are “purely a choice.” You think everyone can live life like you, and have no conceptualization that most of humanity doesn’t live in your location with access to your grocery options and your lifestyle.
That’s before we even get into things like how vegan men often suffer from ED and eating meat virtually instantly cures them. Good luck putting on any muscle as a vegan unless you have no job and can spend all day shoveling buckets if quinoa and lentils down your throat for six straight hours.
Germany’s strongest man has been vegan for years, and holds multiple world records. I have very little patience for stupid misinformation. It just makes your comment worthless.
You’re sure that it has nothing to do with the fact that he’s a professional bodybuilder/strongman and makes so much money from competitions that he can afford to spend all day eating food and working out? Which I directly accounted for?
Literally out of every dietary research into the impact on health, the vegan diet comes out on top. Like, the amount of misinformation you have to swallow and uncritically accept to come to the conclusion you’re drawing means that any conversation with you is pointless. There are close to a hundred million vegans on the planet. We know things. They have been researched. Science. Try it sometimes.
"Households should select predominantly plant-based diets rich in a variety of vegetables and fruits, pulses or legumes, and minimally processed starchy staple foods. The evidence that such diets will prevent or delay a significant proportion of non-communicable chronic diseases is consistent.”
" A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet can provide the nutrients we need […] vegetarian dietary patterns may have a health benefit when compared to more traditional dietary patterns. Vegetarian or more plant-based diets are typically higher in fruit and vegetables, whole grains and dietary fibre while being lower in saturated fat, sweets and non-water beverages (such as sugar-sweetened beverages and alcohol).”
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes […] Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease.”
“It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases […] The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates.”
"Anyone can follow a vegan diet – from children to teens to older adults. It’s even healthy for pregnant or nursing mothers. A well-planned vegan diet is high in fibre, vitamins and antioxidants. Plus, it’s low in saturated fat and cholesterol. This healthy combination helps protect against chronic diseases.
Vegans have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes and certain types of cancer than non-vegans. Vegans also have lower blood pressure levels than both meat-eaters and vegetarians and are less likely to be overweight.”
The rapidly growing weaning infant has no iron stores and has to rely on dietary
iron. It is possible to meet these high requirements if the diet has a consistently high content
of meat and foods rich in ascorbic acid. In most developed countries today, infant cereal
products are the staple foods for that period of life. Commercial products are regularly
fortified with iron and ascorbic acid, and they are usually given together with fruit juices and
solid foods containing meat, fish, and vegetables
" A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet can provide the nutrients we need […] vegetarian dietary patterns may have a health benefit when compared to more traditional dietary patterns. Vegetarian or more plant-based diets are typically higher in fruit and vegetables, whole grains and dietary fibre while being lower in saturated fat, sweets and non-water beverages (such as sugar-sweetened beverages and alcohol).”
what did you cut out with the “[…]”?
among other things, a link to a page with 2500 words on it explaining how difficult it is to get all the nutrients you need during pregnancy.
Wow big letters. This was the position of the AND in 2016:
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods
There is nobody being dishonest here except you. No matter big your letters are. I provided sources you could have just looked at them, or do some minimal googling. But you people couldn’t care less about facts, I know. If only you could turns all those feefees into some empathy for animals.
"Anyone can follow a vegan diet – from children to teens to older adults. It’s even healthy for pregnant or nursing mothers. A well-planned vegan diet is high in fibre, vitamins and antioxidants. Plus, it’s low in saturated fat and cholesterol. This healthy combination helps protect against chronic diseases.
while it’s true that page says exactly what you quoted, it also says
Speak to your doctor, healthcare provider or dietitian about a vegan eating plan
which is pretty critical, considering basically every source you linked spends most of the time explaining the common nutrient deficiencies found in vegans and ways to mitigate them.
I have a vegan friend who eats pretty normally and does olympic weightlifting for fun, he’s pretty jacked. I couldn’t find anything to back up your ED claim, any sources?
Also sure, not everyone can eat like everyone else. But you’re telling everyone to make all their own food from scratch and if you’re doing that then a vegan diet is one of the most affordable ways to do it. I love cooking all my own meals from scratch and I just use vegies and mostly whole foods. and no you don’t need to spend every waking hour eating lentils, I usually don’t even eat lunch and I maintain my weight and muscle just fine. You can’t just make up stuff about vegan diets and pretend you’re right. It’s silly.
I mean I agree it’s a radical break with what is considered the norm. But it’s a fast growing ethical sentiment that we are not treating our fellow earthlings with the respect they deserve. So if anything a vegan acts from more compassion, more inclusivity. And the fact that this sounds to you as if vegans are out of touch, just speaks to how much you are out of touch with this growing sentiment. It’s not as if vegans are acting from some kind of misguided ethical principles. The fact that we lay bare that the unjust treatment of animals is a choice, turns this around. It puts the onus meat eaters to justify their actions. But then they come on forums like this and complain about how we are out of touch and lost perspective and critical thought. It’s just not true.
Because nothing youve said is coherent. You imply that this is a black and white “eating meat requires abuse and causes all problems vs. veganism solves all abuse and causes no problems” and have made it clear you arent interested in ahaking yourself of that mentality.
Youre ears and eyes are full of sand. Talking to you is as productive as climbing everest naked.
Eating meat requires a victim. You literally have to kill another being for it. You can’t deny this, because it’s a fact. And vegans do not want to participate in that. This isn’t complicated. You choose to participate in the victimization of animals when you are eating an animal that is grown and/or killed for your products. Doesn’t matter the circumstances, doesn’t matter how, why, when. The animal that is killed is a victim, doesn’t get much clearer than that.
You’re making it out to be black and white because a child can do this logic. But it’s not black and white, there are plenty of edge cases to discuss, and that’s literally what the vegan community is doing all the time with many proponents of many different opinions.
But we’re vegan because we accept this simple logic and wish to minimise it as much as possible. And food is the easiest, since our body doesn’t need it. Plenty of vegan solutions available for the many cases where animals are victims. No need for leather, no need for wool, no need for honey, etc. Minimising animal victims is the goal here. It can never be zero, it can never be black and white.
The only thing that bothers me about your statement is how much my tax dollars pay to subsidize your stupid meat addiction.
Less than 1% of the world are vegans though. So 99% of people paying that are using it. Quite rare for more things in governance.
We’re all paying for things others benefit from. And yeah, I’m 100% against subsidizing meat. But the reason your food is expensive is because the vegan demographic is considered to be easily over charged for “specialty” overly packaged marketing heavy food products.
Also: people buying organic meatless groceries at Whole Foods-Amazon store won’t save the planet. Ever.
I’m not a vegan, but that’s not the right way to think about subsidies. It’s not about whether someone is a “meat eater” or a “vegan”. It’s about incentivizing consumption. The person eating meat once or twice a week subsidizes the person eating meat everyday. The more meat you eat, the more money society pays. Many people would cut back on eating meat if they had to pay the true cost.
But vegans are direct evidence that meat and animal products are not a necessity and are purely a choice. That choice is wasteful, has ethical implications towards animals, highly polluting and far less healthy.
So what is the subsidy for? It’s like subsidising candy, cigars or alcoholic beverages. It doesn’t make sense anymore with the knowledge of today.
Just because a group of people who have to massively inconvenience themselves and spend four times longer eating their daily calories than someone who gets their protein from meat can do it doesn’t mean that meat is suddenly a “choice” and not necessary.
That’s like saying because some people can ride their bicycles everywhere that cars and public transit are “purely a choice.” You think everyone can live life like you, and have no conceptualization that most of humanity doesn’t live in your location with access to your grocery options and your lifestyle.
That’s before we even get into things like how vegan men often suffer from ED and eating meat virtually instantly cures them. Good luck putting on any muscle as a vegan unless you have no job and can spend all day shoveling buckets if quinoa and lentils down your throat for six straight hours.
Germany’s strongest man has been vegan for years, and holds multiple world records. I have very little patience for stupid misinformation. It just makes your comment worthless.
You’re sure that it has nothing to do with the fact that he’s a professional bodybuilder/strongman and makes so much money from competitions that he can afford to spend all day eating food and working out? Which I directly accounted for?
Literally out of every dietary research into the impact on health, the vegan diet comes out on top. Like, the amount of misinformation you have to swallow and uncritically accept to come to the conclusion you’re drawing means that any conversation with you is pointless. There are close to a hundred million vegans on the planet. We know things. They have been researched. Science. Try it sometimes.
Edit, yeah you can downvote it. But
https://www.fao.org/3/y2809e/y2809e00.pdf
"Households should select predominantly plant-based diets rich in a variety of vegetables and fruits, pulses or legumes, and minimally processed starchy staple foods. The evidence that such diets will prevent or delay a significant proportion of non-communicable chronic diseases is consistent.”
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/the-vegan-diet/
"With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.”
https://www.nutrition.org.uk/putting-it-into-practice/plant-based-diets/healthy-eating-for-vegetarians-and-vegans/
" A well-planned vegetarian or vegan diet can provide the nutrients we need […] vegetarian dietary patterns may have a health benefit when compared to more traditional dietary patterns. Vegetarian or more plant-based diets are typically higher in fruit and vegetables, whole grains and dietary fibre while being lower in saturated fat, sweets and non-water beverages (such as sugar-sweetened beverages and alcohol).”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes […] Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/
“It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases […] The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates.”
https://www.unlockfood.ca/en/Articles/Vegetarian-and-Vegan-Diets/What-You-Need-to-Know-About-Following-a-Vegan-Eati.aspx
"Anyone can follow a vegan diet – from children to teens to older adults. It’s even healthy for pregnant or nursing mothers. A well-planned vegan diet is high in fibre, vitamins and antioxidants. Plus, it’s low in saturated fat and cholesterol. This healthy combination helps protect against chronic diseases.
Vegans have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes and certain types of cancer than non-vegans. Vegans also have lower blood pressure levels than both meat-eaters and vegetarians and are less likely to be overweight.”
Get informed and stop the bullshit.
https://www.fao.org/3/y2809e/y2809e00.pdf
what did you cut out with the “[…]”?
among other things, a link to a page with 2500 words on it explaining how difficult it is to get all the nutrients you need during pregnancy.
i can’t believe you clipped the VERY NEXT SENTENCE from this:
this is incredibly dishonest: the ada is now the AND, and that is no longer their position.
Get informed and stop the bullshit.
Wow big letters. This was the position of the AND in 2016:
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
The ADA had the same position in 2009:
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/
There is nobody being dishonest here except you. No matter big your letters are. I provided sources you could have just looked at them, or do some minimal googling. But you people couldn’t care less about facts, I know. If only you could turns all those feefees into some empathy for animals.
while it’s true that page says exactly what you quoted, it also says
which is pretty critical, considering basically every source you linked spends most of the time explaining the common nutrient deficiencies found in vegans and ways to mitigate them.
I have a vegan friend who eats pretty normally and does olympic weightlifting for fun, he’s pretty jacked. I couldn’t find anything to back up your ED claim, any sources?
Also sure, not everyone can eat like everyone else. But you’re telling everyone to make all their own food from scratch and if you’re doing that then a vegan diet is one of the most affordable ways to do it. I love cooking all my own meals from scratch and I just use vegies and mostly whole foods. and no you don’t need to spend every waking hour eating lentils, I usually don’t even eat lunch and I maintain my weight and muscle just fine. You can’t just make up stuff about vegan diets and pretend you’re right. It’s silly.
Why is it that in order to become vegan, you need to lose all sense of perspective and critical thought?
Its insane to me how completely out of touch every vegan I talk to is with their neighbors.
why is it that you’re a big dumb poopy head?
I mean I agree it’s a radical break with what is considered the norm. But it’s a fast growing ethical sentiment that we are not treating our fellow earthlings with the respect they deserve. So if anything a vegan acts from more compassion, more inclusivity. And the fact that this sounds to you as if vegans are out of touch, just speaks to how much you are out of touch with this growing sentiment. It’s not as if vegans are acting from some kind of misguided ethical principles. The fact that we lay bare that the unjust treatment of animals is a choice, turns this around. It puts the onus meat eaters to justify their actions. But then they come on forums like this and complain about how we are out of touch and lost perspective and critical thought. It’s just not true.
Youre breathing sand, ostrich.
You’re literally saying nothing.
Because nothing youve said is coherent. You imply that this is a black and white “eating meat requires abuse and causes all problems vs. veganism solves all abuse and causes no problems” and have made it clear you arent interested in ahaking yourself of that mentality.
Youre ears and eyes are full of sand. Talking to you is as productive as climbing everest naked.
Eating meat requires a victim. You literally have to kill another being for it. You can’t deny this, because it’s a fact. And vegans do not want to participate in that. This isn’t complicated. You choose to participate in the victimization of animals when you are eating an animal that is grown and/or killed for your products. Doesn’t matter the circumstances, doesn’t matter how, why, when. The animal that is killed is a victim, doesn’t get much clearer than that.
You’re making it out to be black and white because a child can do this logic. But it’s not black and white, there are plenty of edge cases to discuss, and that’s literally what the vegan community is doing all the time with many proponents of many different opinions.
But we’re vegan because we accept this simple logic and wish to minimise it as much as possible. And food is the easiest, since our body doesn’t need it. Plenty of vegan solutions available for the many cases where animals are victims. No need for leather, no need for wool, no need for honey, etc. Minimising animal victims is the goal here. It can never be zero, it can never be black and white.
“Meat addiction” lol
You’re right, it’s more like a religion.
Cope
I refuse to cope. I shall instead die of grief. The end.
Because of your indifferent attitude. Your meat will now become more expensive than plant based meat, so you can eat your words