(this is a sarcastic post meant to highlight the absurdity of some of the “greater good” rhetoric we’ve been hearing, especially around leaving vulnerable populations like disabled people behind in case of revolution, basically accelerationism)
(this is a sarcastic post meant to highlight the absurdity of some of the “greater good” rhetoric we’ve been hearing, especially around leaving vulnerable populations like disabled people behind in case of revolution, basically accelerationism)
Difficult to raise this amongst friends but one 2022 story came to mind
https://www.vox.com/policy/385549/trans-sports-transgender-biden-harris-democrats-titleix
PS: obviously my conflict is about “fight for 1% of athletes vs. lose election to Hitlerguy and harm like 50% of the population”, to oversimplify greatly
Liberals will say shit like this and then be baffled why leftists don’t want to fall in line behind the party of moderate fascists.
You throw trans people under the bus and you also lose, or at least depress turnout, of everyone who supports trans rights. You also make it clear to every minority that if they’re in the crosshairs next, they’ll be sacrificed next for the same reasons of political convenience. Jews represented <1% of the population of Weimar Germany, and you may be familiar with a poem about what happened after they came for them.
Furthermore, by ceding ground to the Republicans on this you make them look correct and you discredit your own side for having previously denounced their position as bigoted, which makes people more likely to support Republicans. We saw this happen with the border, when the Democrats turned from “Building the wall is racist” to “We’re the ones who are actually going to build the wall,” they didn’t win over moderate republicans, instead they lost on virtually every demographic. The people who are pro-immigration hated it and the people who are anti-immigration saw their views as being validated and if they had any lingering reservations about voting Republican, those reservations vanished.
Framing politics as a Trolley Problem is extremely stupid, and fundamentally not how the world works, it’s liberal brainrot and one of the reasons Democrats are worthless. They literally did this “strategic” sacrifice with Palestinians and immigrants (and it’s not like they fully supported trans rights either) and they still ate shit with the worst electoral map since the Republicans took California. When throwing trans people to the wolves doesn’t work, which minority will you sacrifice next?
Republicans who got on the “Freak out about transgender policy” lost their elections in droves in 2022. Several big swing Senate seats flipped because guys like Blake Masters and Herschel Walker couldn’t stop screaming slurs at campaign rallies. We’ve seen Republicans scrub out over and over again by downing too much of their own kool-aid.
Democrats didn’t lose 2024 because they were too nice to Transgender people. They lost because they were too nice to Liz Cheney. Harris made a big show of aligning with neoconservatives on everything from immigration and trade to military policies against Russia and China to the stubborn endorsement of the Palestine genocide. All of this shit polled worse than support for Transgender civil rights. Harris had no problem throwing the country in front of Hitlerguy to endorse the tear-gassing of Columbia University and the Kids In Cages on the Texas/Mexico border.
Even then… even if you can argue with a stack full of polling papers that Harris knew with perfect certainty and well in advance of the November vote that an impassioned speech in defense of transgender athletes would doom her campaign and subject the US to Hitlerguy, so what? She didn’t do this and she still fucking lost.
So she and the rest of her squishy latte liberal cohort threw away a big chunk of LGBTQ support for what? What did Dems gain by embracing reactionary policy?
This right here can’t be said enough. The problem isn’t policies that are too leftist. It’s the “liberals” that a working so hard to cozy up to conservatives. If we wanted moderate Republicans we’d vote for 'em. We want fucking leftists goddammit!!!
Why are you asking what the dems gained? You’re the one now worse off?
What did you gain by not voting for her?
On one hand I don’t fucking like Liz Cheney… on the other hand… I think you should welcome (almost) anyone against an enemy like Trump. I thought that at the time, and now with the additional information we’ve gained since then (and I personally learned) only reaffirm that to me. We don’t have to glorify Liz Cheney later.
But not voting for Kamala because the coalition allowed Liz Cheney in is probably just as dumb as not voting for Kamala because somehow… Trump isn’t WORSE on Palestine?
There is not a “single issue” that won for them beyond voter manipulation. They did the same thing as 2016 and did targeted ads and segmenting people on social media. Mass voter suppression in the south (Russian bomb threats in Georgia… the disenfranchisement across multiple states…etc) FB & Twitter owned by them. TikTok in question but absolutely started showing even more right wing content after the election. I’m sure one issue (or two) might be more influential, but that’s only because of the coordinated reach of their voter manipulation.
We have ALL been targeted with propaganda and segmented from each other. They continue to do it now. They lie and Fox News, which something like 60% of the country, carries their lies for them. Bots barrage social media every where. Tech-bro toelickers and tankies promote right wing, anti-globalist propaganda everywhere. (Anti-globalism is primarily right wing, Kremlin propaganda to disconnect The Americas (primarily US ofc) from Europe).
Be wary of bots that feel like they’re your ally, too.
"But the 63 per cent of the German people who expressed their opposition to Hitler were much too divided and shortsighted to combine against a common danger which they must have known would overwhelm them unless they united, however temporarily, to stamp it out.”
Excerpt From The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich Shirer, William
I would much rather have the people who hate the Cheney’s guts in my coalition than have the Cheney’s. How many people do they even represent? Who doesn’t hate them, and with good reason?
First off they didn’t just “allow” Liz Cheney, they actively campaigned with her. But secondly and more importantly, it’s not about whether it was right or wrong for that to influence people’s decisions, it’s about the fact that it likely did. Call it “dumb” or “irrational” all you want, if voters were all rational and intelligent then maybe we wouldn’t have to think or care about messaging or image at all, but that’s not the world we live in.
The influence of “bots” is highly overstated and is basically just a way of dismissing legitimate criticism and preventing any kind of self-reflection or learning from mistakes.
It was a pathetic attempt to reach “middle of the ground” voters.
Did you not read that I opened with I hate Cheney? I suppose “don’t fucking like” may not have been forceful enough.
I agree they probably leaned too much into it. A “thanks for speaking Cheney.” is probably all I would have given her. If that’s your only point, fine I agree. But I wouldn’t exile her support entirely. If you’re mad about that instead of focusing on Trump, you’re losing sight of the problem.
I didn’t say it wasn’t influential. If you stopped responding emotionally or with the intent to derail and attack, you’d realize I literally said specific topics could be more important than others (once again, Palestine another highly controversial one I see you completely skip past). But it’s the reach and targeting of these messages to those they resonate most with that is why they are so dangerous. Peter Thiel; Trump investor & close to all the tech bros funding things; was the 1st outside investor in Facebook. It was never “liberal.”
Nothing I said implies we don’t think about messaging. By now the inaccuracy of your attacks come off as firehose of falsehoods.
Your dismissal of bots and propaganda is not only stupid, it’s dangerous. Propaganda has influenced EVERY democracy.
Tell me, which of these was not reportedly influenced and pushed by Russia or is not Russia friendly and has it pushed ties with Russia, both by propaganda & by literally influencing people with money? (Both people to lie for them in media, and politicians to vote for them)
MAGA/US, Brexit/UK, Marine La Pen/France, Bolsonaro/Brazil, AfD/Germany, Polliviere/Canada… the list goes on.
Are you blind? A bootlicker?
And absolutely nothing I’ve said has ever indicated we don’t have a lot to deal with internally. But to fail to acknowledge that we wouldn’t be here without our enemies helping these guys get here is to deny reality. I’d rather not drink the Kremlin Tea, thanks.
read the quote at the bottom of my first post again. That is the most important message anyone can take away from these posts.
I never claimed otherwise? Very confusing reaction.
Excuse me? In what way was my response “emotional?”
What “attacks” are you talking about? All I did was disagree with you on certain points.
They’ve got propaganda, we’ve got propaganda, everybody’s got propaganda, and always has. The Democratic party has plenty of money to get their message out, the problem is their message sucked and didn’t resonate.
All of those were driven by material conditions, yes propaganda had an effect but the reason the propaganda resonates and has influence is because of people being dissatisfied with the liberal status quo.
Every statement you’ve made has been in bad faith, purely attempting to derail the argument and make readers glaze their eyes over.
You’re doing it now, even in this response.
You’re just hand waving things and saying all things are equal. I’m sure the $160 million from cryptobros and $250+? million from Elon made no difference at all. I’m sure Elon’s $1m fake-raffles to convince people to vote didn’t make a difference. Fox News is watched by 60% of the country. Got a similar stat for a “leftist” program you can show is like actually propaganda?
Bet you’ll argue that because we were imperial, we should let Russia and China be imperial and conquer Taiwan/Ukraine too?
No, the NEOliberal status quo. We have never been a leftist nation. Our Overton window is very far to the right. Bernie is like a single step to the left of the center. Check out any other major democracy.
Part of this entire argument we are having HINGES on the fact that many corporate donors are basically conservatives even if slightly “socially liberal”… cause their money comes first. That even, they too, focus on. Both the neocons and neolibs have maintained this order since the 60s until MAGA came along to reshape the presidency into a “CEO dictator.”
You’re basically telling me to choose MY words carefully. Right back at ya, buddy. Attacking "liberal"ism is straight kremlin propaganda.
You, the tech bros, and Russia get along well it seems.
Well, that didn’t take long 🙄
I love when people just say shit. Like, you haven’t pointed to any actual reason why anything I’ve said is “bad faith” or “emotional.” Really just rolling out all the go-to methods of categorically dismissing any and all criticism, huh?
Lmao no it isn’t. You got a source for that number?
Yeah, no shit? Why are you telling me this as if I don’t already know?
Lmao. A liberal is a supporter of capitalism, as a socialist, of course I’m opposed to liberalism. I guess every socialist in the world is a “Kremlin propagandist” in your view.
Why do you think the right-wing, free market “Liberal Democrats” of the UK are called that?
100% stand by my initial statement that you are genuinely an idiot to dismiss the legitimacy of how badly propaganda & bots have fucked us up.
after reviewing your comment history, I edited that out (after you posted). I take this statement back.
WHAT ACTUAL criticism do you have besides continuing to vaguely attack the democrats and whine they campaigned with Cheney – which I already said they went too HAM into. But I also wouldn’t exile her entirely.
You ignored the question… and continued to make attacks that have no actual end result/point to the convo you claim to be trying to have. That’s why they’re in bad faith.
Again. Re read #3 because I’ve already said it multiple times. Do you have any actual other point than that besides “dems & Cheney bad?” That’s what I’ve been trying to get to.
I am wrong on the Fox News viewership and conflating it with specific numbers.
However, I’m not going to pretend the prevalence of Fox News being turned on in many businesses, hospitals, etc, and the internet also sharing clips of it (and being repeated places like edit: Joe Rogan. I’m tired, k?) isn’t relevant to the convo.
Also Facebook working with Cambridge Analytica, the Trump campaign, & others to tailor their algorithms to target Americans and influence the election.
Because you just said that Americans were tired with the “liberal” way of things. What liberal way of things?
“Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, the right to private property, and equality before the law.”
I mean… you have to go beyond socialism into communism to not think that some form of capitalism should exist. And I’m not saying I’m not on board with SOME of that, but you’re kind of driving my point home that you’re just… saying shit.
I’m a basically a fuckin’ socialist you turd. That’s part of why I’ve been asking “what the hell are you talking about” this whole time when I’ve addressed the Cheney point MULTIPLE times, which was your only real complaint until you kept attacking random shit. (However I do ultimately appreciate having taking the time to review a couple things you made me double check so I’m not repeating them again… just kinda lame it took your attitude of wanting to attack with once again… seeming no real end goal… to get that)
Once again: if you’re more angry that even Liz Cheney went “oh fuck this is bad I’ll say something” and the democrats embraced that… than the fact we literally have a CEO dictator flagrantly going against the courts & constitution and deporting legal immigrants… idk what the fuck to tell you. Being more mad at the system than the actual Nazis taking power is speechlessly stupid in my eyes. I have repeatedly said in past comments that we wouldn’t be in this situation if the system itself wasn’t broken, and I have never defended it.
Forest. For. The. Fucking. Trees.
I bet we could get even more of these conservatives on our side if we promised to repeal gay marriage. Let’s try that, too
Ooh, and we could get even more people if we promised to put the Jews in camps
To clarify, screenshot quotes democrats
Trans folx in sports is the most narrow topic - I am discussing it as so. A very specific topic where not every ally is an agreement. A very specific topic that someone very orange did a great job of lying about constantly.
“Force humans into certain bathrooms” = different topic, for example
Once you make one unscientific concession to bigotry, you’ll make another. The problem with your strategy is that the opposition to trans athletes isn’t actually a good-faith attempt at securing fairness in sports. This isn’t some fair debate that reasonable minds can come together and hash out. If you surrender on this issue, the bigots just move on to the next one. And since you’ve already conceded to bigotry once, you’ve established the precedent that it is fine to pass laws based on pure unscientific bigotry. It starts with sports, but it doesn’t end there. Now people’s passports are being revoked because a bunch of cowards thought, “oh, it’s just sports, that’s not worth fighting over.” If you give these fuckers an inch, they’ll take a mile.
And democrats responded by breaking solidarity with a minority they consider disposable.
They sure got a lot of the republican votes they crave by showing simpering cowardice in the face of bigotry.
Do you think we would have won in 2008 if we made everything gay marriage all the time?
You wait for the right moment,with the right issues.
You think Trump won by running on sending US citizens to El Salvador?
This stupidity is why they always, always, always win,you fucking child.
MLK Jr. had a lot to say about this position. Desegregation and civil rights were once just as unpopular as trans rights are now. If you’re feeling impatient skip to the last passage, though that would be quite ironic given you are calling on trans people to be patient waiting for their rights.
Jesus Christ.
Trans are less than 1% of the population, and as a brown person, we can’t hide what we are, even for a second.
But yeah, please tell me how trans is literally worse than the holocaust and slavery.
Btw, do you think civil rights would have gone better or worse if someone more closely aligned with Hitler gained power before WW2?
And that makes protecting their rights unimportant?
Did I say that, or did you imagine that I did?
I assume you’re saying this because you believe that Democrats advocating for trans rights cost them the election, giving it to Trump. The only way you could have come to this conclusion is if you heard it from some talking head and believed it without critical thought because it feels right to you. The thing is, it’s just completely false. The Democrats’ advocacy for trans rights has been lukewarm at best and overtly hostile at worst. Most of them have the same mindset as you, where they prefer to retreat from difficult topics like trans rights, ceding the narrative to conservatives while failing to create any consistent narrative of their own. That’s what cost them the election.
Ok, and who exactly do you think is making trans people’s rights a big issue?
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So, your argument is that trans people should’ve shut up?
I see a couple of problems with this:
This brings me to my second point:
You know what I did see? Republicans using trans rights as a wedge issue. And you’ve bought into it. That wedge is still working.
Referring to the cited source, the screenshot?
If you aren’t going to fight for that “1% of athletes” even though you think they’re right just because they’re too politically inconvenient then I have zero faith you’ll fight for me when I’m politically inconvenient and actually need you to
Is our president a political inconvenience?
I think the point there was reasonable disagreements exist amongst us allies so we can focus on the 99% where we agree entirely
I haven’t mentioned… today… how sickening this is. Sorry to be talking so GOPy. That ain’t me
The problem with this is that it assumes Democrats have no agency. Democratic politicians have treated trans issues like those crusty old male Dems who don’t like saying the word abortion.
Dems have never provided loud and full-throated support to trans issues. Go watch the recent John Oliver video on trans sports. There are very very good arguments on why excluding trans people from sports is incredibly anti-scientific and just thinly disguised bigotry. But Democratic politicians have never bothered developing the talking points to defend trans people, like they have for other core issues.
Look at how Kamala responded when asked about trans issues. She didn’t provide full-throated support to trans people. Her reply was simply, “I’ll follow the law.”
Democrats have completely failed to defend trans people. They’ve quietly passed a few state level anti-discrimination laws, but in terms of rhetoric, they’ve completely ceded the space to conservatives. The only mainstream voices talking about trans issues have been the anti-trans bigots. The Democrats have instead just called the whole issue a distraction and hoped it would all just blow away.
They’re right that it is a distraction, an artificial one concocted by Republicans. But that doesn’t mean they can just ignore it.
Propaganda works. And if you don’t do the hard rhetorical work to fight it, it eventually does change public opinion.
Well, that’s more than she was willing to do for Gaza.
and now gaza is safe, and everyone clapped.
oh wait, no, trump wants to annex it.
along with greenland and canada and the panama canal.
something tells me these populations would have preferred the ‘I’ll follow the law’ candidate happily vs the ‘i’ll annex your country unilaterally’ shitbag.
but you don’t fucking care about any of them lol. you got your principled win, good for you, and now the trans folks will be persecuted actively, gaza will be torn apart and sold to the highest bidders, and american kids are going to die invading our former allies.
great fucking work, your principles are fantastic.
Sorry, now that’s going to happen? What the hell did you think was happening before?
yeah it never works on you, no sir… we’re all a lot better because everyone stood by their principles and punished the bad biden/harris team, yep, so much better.
those trans people, they’ll be safe now.
those kids in gaza, I’m sure now that trump’s won he’ll make sure they’re safe.
Yeah this all punishing those bad bad dems you’ll show 'em.
stupid fucking liberals, when will they learn their lesson.
working out great.
Trans people were being maimed and killed under Biden too, nothing changed for the trans people in the red states, violating the 14th amendment under Biden’s watch. Trump won’t care, Biden could have cared and chose not to.
Kids in gaza were being murdered and bombed under Biden too, nothing changed for them when a blue guy signs off on bombs or a red guy signs off on bombs. Trump won’t care, Biden could have cared and chose not to.
One is honest in being evil and hating people. It’s in the name “Republican.” The other pretends to tolerate you, and then throws you under the bus come election season to appeal to the greater evil’s voting base, who wants the most evil and won’t vote for a lesser evil.
keep telling yourself they’re the same bud.
lie to yourself all you want. calling it the same is ridiculous and you know it.
ya done fucked the pooch on this one so bad it’s going to wreck the whole fucking thing, but hey, you stuck to your convictions, no matter how short sighted.
gonna block you now, have a wretched life living through the consequences you brought on yourselves.
I voted Harris and said Republicans are worse, but sure man, your bubble won’t pop when Trump uses America’s decades long polices domestically. Sorry I acknowledge trans people outside of the month of November every 4 years.
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We would have been better off without trump. you’ve empowered the fuckwit.
great fucking work.
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reminds me of 2003, when the bush regime convinced everyone that their marriage would somehow be worthless if they let the gays get married.
and it worked, the stupid fucks bought it. iraq paid badly for it tho, whoo hoo…
So, how large does a minority have to be before they are no longer disposable?
Lincoln didn’t run on ending slavery, but plenty of abolitionists supported him, including Frederick Douglas
Douglass was also very involved in national politics, and as the presidential election of 1860 approached, he advocated for candidates with strong antislavery platforms. American voters received a ballot crowded with four candidates: Abraham Lincoln (Republican), John C. Breckenridge (Southern Democrat), Stephen A. Douglas (Democrat), and John Bell (Constitutional Union). Douglas’s belief in “popular sovereignty,” Breckenridge’s pro-slavery platform, and Bell’s aversion to the issue entirely left Frederick Douglass to endorse Lincoln and the Republicans, whom he believed were more antislavery than the divided Democrats.
It’s possible to be willing to jump in front of a bullet to save a trans brother and loudly tell everyone to shut the fuck up about sports until we codify the right protections into the constitution etc.
Back channels baby! Back channel fights on controversial topics. Fox News can’t demonize what they’re ignorant of.
But this is assuming this topic is popular on the left and it’s reportedly divisive (again, amongst those who are not hateful scumbags)
If you think that you can change the Constitution through back channels, then I need to know what you’re smoking.
Backchannel until [super]majority agreement achieved before going public!
Back channels! Where you can say you’re doing something but aren’t actually doing shit!
Back channels are the only place where democrats oppose genocide, support unions, try to keep abortion legal, and are diligently working to make cannabis legal.
Interesting: nuance (do not restrict unless it would harm) was possible to beat Republicans on this policy. Internal rifts led them to stay silent on a stance (already being realized) that would resonate.
Really interesting. Thank you
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One does not preclude the other. There is energy for both inclusion and revolution.
In fact, revolution is inclusion, is mutual-aid, etc. It’s a requirement. For every person “fighting” there are 10 more people supporting the people and the community that fascism and its shrinking safety nets leave behind
We are probably fighting the same people anyway, but can we please focus on their actual crimes instead of their harmful rhetoric?
Well, no you’re not really an ally yet, far as i can tell. Fix your head. “Trannies” sheesh son
Edit for the thread: probably best to just block this cat, they’re clearly enjoying themselves
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The portion of the population of trans people in the US is the same as the Jewish portion of the population of pre-Nazi Germany.
You would have happily sat by as the Jews were sent to the ovens.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Suggesting that not being caught up in your fight for semantics, is the same as condoning mass murder. Disgusting.
How you take me for someone who sits happily by while fascists send anyone off to die is crazy man.
People’s passports and other basic identification documents are being revoked, the healthcare people need to stay breathing is being targeted for elimination, and the official policy of the administration is that trans people are pedophiles worthy of the death penalty. And you’re here spouting the T slur and dismissing the genocide that is right in front of you.
Yes, you would have happily sat by, and likely cheered on, as Jews were sent to the gas chambers. After all, Jews in pre-Nazi Germany were as unpopular as trans people in the US are now. You would have probably been throwing a few rocks on Kristallnacht yourself.
Fuck you. That shit is happening in your fucked up corner of the world, not in mine. You were the ones who lost your fucking country to the Nazis.
Now i gotta worry about your president threatening to invade my country, because you spent so much fucking time talking about minority social inclusion (which they fucking should have, and do have in my country) that you completely botched the job of keeping billionaires from just buying up your government.
Most of you need multiple fucking jobs to pay the rent and feed your kids, because you ate the propoganda that unions were out to abuse you they’ve been spewing for the last half century.
I think it is very honorable that you want to fight for social inclusion. But when are you gonna get on from that, and actually fight to improve working and living conditions for the working class? Not getting thrown into poverty if you break a leg?
Maybe changing your education system, to have a stronger public school system, don’t you think the social inclusion would happen more naturally if you just fucking educated your people?
It’s ridiculous to look at. You keep letting them buttfuck you, Meanwhile everything the American left has been yelling about for the past decade is social inclusion and forbidden words.
Fighting for the working class IS fighting for minorities. Incessant yapping about semantics is only driving the people who should be fighting with you away.
I doubt it. Bigots are too powerful. They’re good at getting their messages out. They raise bigoted children. They also strongly oppose any education that might help undo these bigoted views, so you really have a chicken-and-egg situation there.
That’s why it isn’t enough to just not be racist; you have to be anti-racist, and I think that by the same token it isn’t enough to just not be a transphobe…you have to be anti-transphobia. The bigots are organized and willing to fight, so the other side has to, too.
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Ok. You’re no longer included.
oop quick note man it’s “trans people” or whatnot will delete this once ya see
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Bashing?
Analogy - black people tell me not to use the n word, am I at a disadvantage for saying “black” instead of a slur? Would be a little odd to ignore feedback when it makes no difference to me… I ain’t married to “n***er” (censored it painlessly)
I’m irreverent as FUCK by the way ^ 10, quick make a dead baby joke (srsly I don’t give a shit about ouchie topics, I do try to be aight to folks tho)
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This is the ideal perspective that leads to optimal outcomes for the general public?
Nah, but fighting so hard for something that you forget to… checks notes have basic human rights like healthcare and free education, is ridiculous.
You went so hard on one issue, that you drive half your population to vote for Nazis. Job well done, right?
Certainly made me mad enough to reply all over this thread. This is the kind of conversation that’s really useful, that we’re having now, I think!
So as soon as DC criminals are sentenced for insider trading, illegal deportations, and so on, rewarding ourselves with using words that distract our allies could be a nice treat!
Nobody likes sitting princess, hands in their lap, waiting and waiting for years… but if it earns us a few more minutes of discussion on healthcare, without distraction, I like that trade-off :)
Thanks for coming back & chatting
While Hitler’s in power, gentleman’s agreement to defer discussion on words might make sense. Use the standard accepted lexicon today, get scofflaws out of Washington, return to this topic in happier times