UkraineUnited States is going to lose if Congress doesn’t send more aidThe fact that everyone understands that the war in Ukraine is based on American backing means that it’s a proxy war between the US and Russia.
$773 billion dollars last year spent on fighting “proxy” wars around the world (and if you count the spying, domestically).
The only one that America has actual moral footing to get behind is the only one we are pulling punches on.
Hardly the first time. I’d argue the US made the same mistake in Afghanistan in 2003, diverting resources to Iraq because Bush Jr. had such a hard-on for Saddam.
100%
With each passing day, Biden’s administration looks like the Bush administration’s bigger more right wing brother.
Citizens United needs to be overturned. The Pentagon budget needs to be at least halved. We need the 2 party system to end.
This will never happen if we keep voting for the lesser evil every 4 years.
I agree with the viewpoints, but many voted for the Russia supporting party, and noone else got enough support in the primaries. There needs to be massively increased primary involvement before a systemic change to move away from the two party system can be feasible. I’m a big fan of ranked choice voting myself, but what big party candidate is going to advocate for that in the current climate? I’m hoping changes can happen over the next decade as my generation and the one below get even more active.
Republicans are corrupted spoiled fucks.
Democrats are corrupted spoiled fucks.
How do you think “massively increased involvement” will occur if we keep throwing our votes at these massively corrupt spoiled fucks?
Peaceful abstaining. Quiet sit in. America on strike.
That is the only possible way we have to cause the change we needed at least 50 years ago.
I mean involvement of the voters themselves. I push a lot of my friends to just go vote, but they still won’t. If you figure out how to get people to actually want to fix the situation, let me know.
I know that in America, currently, “peaceful protester” is an officially classified terrorist group. That was what Occupy Wallstreet resulted in.
I have no idea what Blue MAGA is even suggesting when they say “get more involved in government outside of election season”. The concept doesn’t exist.
I definitely still vote on measures.
When my choices are vote for Genocide and continued severe loss of privacy of freedom A or Genocide and continued severe loss of privacy of freedom B, all I can figure is vote disenfranchised. Won’t check the damn box.
Primary results where people did that have already gotten Biden change his half hour chit chat with Bibi from “your US taxpayer dollars are on the way. The weapons you are buying with those dollars are on the way” to “your US taxpayer dollars are on the way. The weapons you are buying with those dollars are on the way, try to go easier on the civilians in Gaza.”
If Biden suffers a shameful and embarrassing defeat, maybe the next Democrat will figure out the correct answer is “fuck you Bibi, you genocidal maniac. Israel is cut off, that money will now be invested into fixing the healthcare crisis in America, our military is moving humanitarian aid into Gaza, and if your genocidal asshats so much as point a gun in the general direction of our soldiers and the starving citizens of Gaza, you will enjoy our crosshairs.”
mm, delicious bait! 😋 go on then, which proxy war does the US have “actual moral footing” to get behind?
Israel /s
Ukraine/Russia. Supporting Ukraine is objectively morally correct.
lose what? the control of another country?
Control over Europe. Russia is funding far-right politicians in Europe.
Yes, no shit. That was the outlook from day 1.
The Russian Army is largely represented as a bunch of baffoons in the Western media, but it’s still one of the 3 largest armies in the world. Ukraine cannot hold their lines indefinitely, the only way to “win” against an opponent that has multiple times your materiel available is guerilla.
Then guerilla it is!
What the fuck did you just say to me. Motherfucker?
E: I live in an age where people don’t get the Navy Seals copy pasta. This is it. I’m officially fucking old.
Eh it feels like a low effort Reddit response. Copypastas can stay there.
Thanks, Unidan.
Yeah… More Reddit stuff. No thanks.
People know the copypasta, you just said it wrong. The opening insult isn’t motherfucker.
Made the same mistake before too. Lemmy learning curve.
I said your momma looks good in combat boots
There’s no win for humanity through war against an opponent that has thousand of nukes. If one of the nuclear reactors in the region would had been seriously damaged you would be curse every cent that went into fueling this war. We are walking on a thin line already.
Yeah just let them invade us all, that’s the best option.
/s
We already let governments stock piling nukes and take away our freedom
Republicans are thrilled
They so desperately want their own version of Putin in the US. Where they get to kill their political opponents when they like.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Bidens admin just declared that Ukraine WILL join NATO a direct provocation and greatly increased chances for WW3, this along makes Biden the much much greater of the two evils.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
No, he isn’t. And to even suggest that he is would be fucking stupid
You know he just condemned 61 protestors to years of federal carceral slavery under the RICO act, which was INTENDED to be used against organized crime? Your man’s a straight-up fascist dictator, and you’re a collaborator.
If you’re talking about the “Cop City” protesters, that was Georgia State. Not Federal government. It’s 100% bullshit but it’s not Biden’s fault. It’s the Republican lead government of Georgia and their AG.
As the head of the Executive branch, it’s his law. RICO charges are federal charges, they carry FELONY time of up to twenty years if not longer because that’s just a guideline. It also falls to him to grant pardons. Ergo, his inaction is his fault. Do not come to me caping for settlers like YOU’RE THE GUY who can run defense for him. You are not him.
The free world loses when Russia wins.
It’s pretty much an invitation to China to do the same in Taiwan and an invitation for Russia to start more wars in eastern Europe…
Helping Ukraine costs money. Not helping Ukraine costs even more.
Does the free world also include places America has invaded or bombed?
Japan, SK, and Germany seem on board with aid to Ukraine… So yes
Three formerly fascist states join Ukraine
“formerly” fuckin lmao
The fuck is your point?
He would rather a current fascist state join them
Liberals understanding fascism challenge (impossible) https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Fascism
Meanwhile, in Ukraine…
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia
.
Fascism didn’t suddenly appear in 2014, either, it’s been there this whole time.- The History of Fascism in Ukraine Part I: The Origins of the OUN 1917-1941
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part II: The OUN during World War 2, 1941-1945
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part III: 1944-1963 UPA War, Ratlines, and the Assassination of Stepan Bandera
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part IV: The Global OUN Network in Exile, 1962-1992
- The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
“free world” has the same weight here as “state’s rights”
Downvote and move on, but just like the American genocide in Iraq, you will realize I’m right in ~20 years
The free world loses when Russia wins.
I’d pay good money to watch the Anglos crash and burn tbh. Like, PPV amounts of money. At this point it might be the only way to avert climate collapse; if possible at all, and I have no material reason to want to see you propagate or prosper. Die faster; and do a backflip on your way down.
K
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
You mean the “free world” that has Assange, Pablo González and lots of other journalists jailed? The same free world that has destroyed every country that didn’t fall in line with US interests?
The free world 😂 Okay boomer 🇺🇸 🦅
Removed by mod
Russia is way worse. I’m in Hungary, and our government tries everything to scrub information about stuff they don’t like, all while putting Project 2025-tier evil stuff into our constitution, meaning it could be pretty much be undone by an armed rebellion, which will very unlikely thanks to what I call “weaponized doomerism” (pushing people into inaction via depression, crushed protests, and underfunded health care system), and “political gaslighting” (basically the method behind “you’ll be more conservative as you get older”).
China is already bullying the Philippines too out of our own territorial waters, and they have already caused severe injuries to our countrymen. They literally want an entire sea to themselves and leave us with none. Just look at their nine dash line.
Edit: Here’s their nine-dash-line, they even want Malaysia’s sea, which is a long way away from chinese mainland, while they want seas close to the land territories of so many SEA nations.
severe injuries to our countrymen
It was recently on local news, but that’s not the only conflict that involved water cannons and ships. From the article you can see Vietnam— they once saved filipino fishermen from potentially drowning. (from Philippines) https://www.rappler.com/nation/233079-how-filipino-boat-crew-was-saved-west-philippine-sea/ (from Vietnam) https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/all-gestures-no-words-as-vietnamese-fishermen-saved-22-filipinos-3940276.html. If china continues their actions, there are bound to be casualties. And if that happens, I’m not sure any of us will forgive them.
Building weapons and empowering authoritarian regimes is an invitation for anyone for more wars.
Helping Ukraine only costs money if you dump money and weapons at it instead of providing actual help.
Removed by mod
It’s not like we send weapons there and ignore anything else.
Who is we? Do you work for the government?
Funding the future of ukraine after it gets destroyed is yet another dirty profit maneuver
wait, you are not being ironical?
how the fuck do you manage to claim that the west is the free world™ while it is the empire to blame for the largest amount of worldwide suffering in the second half of the twentieth century? It is responsible for countless invasions, sanction regimes and assassinations with the goal of subjugating foreign nations, as well as courting nazis post ww2, like for example people like klaus barbie or wernher von braun, as well as the entire early government of the frg.
your fantasizing about a supposed military threat from the prc to taiwan and from russia to the rest of europe is nothing but pure projection, since you westoids apparently cant imagine someone acting from a different motivation than your own. the prc has time and time again stated that it prefers a peaceful resolution to the taiwan conflict and the province has never officially declared any grade of independence from the mainland, simply being under a different government, the roc.
russia on the other hand has absolutely no reason to start any military conflicts in western europe, something you would know, if you would even try to understand the lead up to the current situation.
your last sentence honestly just sounds like a thinly veiled blood for the blood god.
FWIW, there are plenty of politicians in Europe who disagree with you, it’s not an American take, here’s a quote from Lithuania’s PM:
“the outcome of this fight in Ukraine is crucial for Europe.”
“If Putin is not stopped in Ukraine, then whatever happens next is Europe’s problem at large,” she said. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-not-stopped-in-ukraine-all-europe-problem-lithuania-pm-2024-3?op=1
lithuania, like all the baltic states, is a us puppet state. also they are so obviously fascist that they even erect monuments to literal nazis.
Okay, now come up with an excuse for Germany:
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-and-ukraine-sign-security-agreement-scholz-zelenskyy/
Also if Europe isn’t concerned about Russia, why has Europe’s defense spending drastically gone up? Clearly there is more going on than your blase attitude is implying.
Fuck off with your Putin propaganda.
imnotfromkaliningrad’s comment includes reasoning and it’s obviously their opinion. Meanwhile yours is the propaganda verbatim with no analysis and no reasoning.
Notice how you didn’t address anything in their comment because there’s no argument against it.
Calling things “Russian propaganda” or “Hamas” instead of thinking critically and engaging is an instant win card, didn’t you know?
I didn’t addressed anything because the whole comment is a load of bullshit.
Like your comment?
sadly, even if you follow russian propaganda to the word, which i dont btw, you would still more often than than not end up with the truth. maybe the west should try to be less evil.
Found this video about how Americans live. North Korean propaganda says we eat birds. All countries distort the truth, even ‘Merica. I wish more people understood this.
the video was actually not made by north korea. it is a parody created by a british comedy director. dprk media typically depicts the us in a fairly accurate manner, or at least more truthfully than how american media portrays korea.
I’m so gullible. I wanted to make coffee out of snow after this video. I thought this was real too, until my wife told me it had to be fake. I wanted it to be real.
i feel ya, western propaganda against korea is sadly hard to undo, considering the sheer amount of it. a great way to do it through is to read korean history, with a wonderful beginners read on the topic being this book. after a while you realize that many of the claims against the dprk are often nothing but simple projection, like for example haircut policing being an actual thing in 1980s south korea.
China doesn’t pose a threat to Taiwan? JFC China disagrees with you
you could try to actually read what china says on the topic, instead of deapthroating american propaganda.
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
you westoid liberasts have no reason to be here anyways. just fuck of back to reddit if you dont like it here.
that “chinese style dictatorship” you mentioned is a good thing, obviously.
So Elon Musk-style people are good as long as they’re not leading corporations, but states? I rarely seen anything else among those dictators.
Okay, Elon only hides your Tweet for using the word “cis”, not send you directly to a work camp…
who tf was talking about elon? you fuckers are delusional, lmao
Most of those dictators you love are like him, except they’re more violent.
What’s tators, Precious? Whatever the Atlantic Council and the Council on Foreign Relations and the rules-based international order say they are.
Removed by mod
the western world made their population aware of this wrong actions and helped steer them in the right direction
You say as it’s committing a genocide in Palestine via a western colony.
“Free press” just means capitalist/corporate propaganda; only outlets funded or run by capitalists can realistically reach a large audience.
Unfortunately and scarily, Russia is showing much of the same pattern as Germany in its most dark past, with the ruski mir looking more and more like the german lebensraum.
When you totally know what the lebensraum was.
The Nazis’ lebensraum project wasn’t just taking over a bunch of land in Europe, it was a settler colonial project inspired by the American policies of systematic forced displacement and extermination of the native populations under the doctrine manifest destiny.
Lebensraum was a pseudo-scientific racist theory formulated by pro-colonialism far right German thinkers, according to the lebensraum theory, a race needs a certain amount of space for themselves in order to attain their full potential and therefore need to take their necessary territory from “lesser” races by force. To summarise rapidly how it was developed, the German colonialists basically went “Look at America, they expanded to the west basically exterminating every native population in the way and replacing they with white settlers and now they’re super rich and powerful, so if we exterminate a bunch of native populations, take over their land and put native Germans in their place, we should become super rich and powerful too”.
The idea was put into practice in Namibia, then one of the German empire’s colonies, resulting in the genocide of the Herero and Nama.
Fast forward a bit, Adolph Hitler was visited in prison by one of the main colonialist thinkers behind lebensraum theory and Hitler was rapidly convinced to adopt it.
And that’s how was born the genocidal project of the Nazis in eastern Europe, just as their mentor the United States had rid “their” land of “lesser” north Americans natives to expand westward and make way for the “superior” whites, so would Germany rid eastern Europe of Jews and Slavs to make way for the “Aryans”.
Now comes the question: is Russia doing any of that? Does the Russian government believe in and promote a theory that rank races to justify the extermination of “lesser” ones? Is Russia shoving Ukrainians (or anyone else) in concentration camps and “reservation”? Do they steal Ukrainians houses and invite Russian natives to go live in the stolen houses in Ukraine?
The answer to all of those questions is no. If you think it’s yes you need to demonstrate it, saying “they look just like Nazis” without drawing any actual parallels between them is no better than saying “anyone I don’t like is a Nazi”.
The fact that all of russia’s puppet state demanded to join NATO (BTW: you cannot be invited it only works by writing an official demand to join and approval by all member state), is a revealing fact.
If a NATO country can somehow influence the elections and public opinion on NATO in those so called “Russian puppets”, which they very much can, they can make sure to have pro-NATO politicians in power who will demand a NATO membership, that way they effectively force the country to join while making it look like it was voluntary.
As we saw in Ukraine, Russia does not need any reason to invade a sovereign nation (their reason for invading looking also stangely like german justification for poland invasion)
“Russia does not need any reason to invade[…] their reason for invading looking also stangely like…”
Look, if you’re gonna spew bullshit, can’t you at least keep it strait and somewhat coherent?
Putin didn’t just wake up and decide he was feeling like invading something that day, whether you like it or not they had actual reasons to do it and the fact that you or I may or may not think those reasons are not legitimate does not matter since neither you nor I have a say in the Kremlin.
Also, once again you say “they look like Nazis” without showing why you think they look like Nazis. How are their reasons similar? Russia’s stated reasons for invading are to prevent all of their western frontier neighbors to become part of a military alliance they deem aggressive to them and to stop the killing of ethnic Russians in the Donbas and Luhansk regions and overthrow the current far right government of Ukraine, how is that similar to the Nazi’s excuses to invade Poland?
The countless horrors of torture, rape, murder and brainwashing by the russian state, seems to prove their reasoning right.
[citation needed]
That wouldn’t be the first time the west has falsely accused an enemy of those things so I’m really gonna need a source for that.
I do not claim that the west is perfect, with the actions of the united states and other in recent times, but claiming that russia or china have clean hands would be outright hypocritical.
You claim that the west is systematically better than Russia, China and other countries that the west considers rivals or enemy (funny coincidence that those are all countries the west don’t like isn’t it) and when we demonstrate to you that this is bullshit since the west has literally done almost every single thing you accuse China, Russia, etc of, often in worst and more than once, you go “Ha but I think the west is bad too” so that you can continue pretending to be objective even after we expose you massive pro-west bias.
Thanks to the free press, the western world made their population aware of this wrong actions and helped steer them in the right direction.
The press in the west is not free, it’s the private property of a handful of billionaires who, since they are their private properties, have complete control over what is or is not published in their outlets. I’d even say that given that the capitalists are the ruling class in the west, privately owned medias are really state owned medias with extra steps.
Not to mention the fact that western outlet are often in contact with organs of western governments, most notoriously with the CIA, who often dictate what the outlets should publish.
Just look at how they report on the genocide of Palestinians, does that look like fair and unbiased reporting to you? Those that look free pro Israel bias?
great analysis, comrade. i would like to point out though, that racist pseudoscience didnt start with the us, but rather that they were sadly able to inherit a quite rich tradition of this vile bullshit, ideas that were previously pushed by british intelligentsia. the idea of concentration camps was also arguably pioneered in america with the native american reservations.
That makes sense
im sorry to tell you that, but your reasoning is wrong form the first sentence to the last and contains a lot of lies and cia propaganda, which makes it a quite impressive piece of liberalism. lets examine.
already your first statement is wrong, due to the fact that only through studying the history of a particular regime you can begin to make sense of its structure and motivations in accordance with historical and dialectical materialism. it is obvious to anyone, that the us stood for oppression, subjugation and ethnic cleansing from its very inception and hasnt stopped ever since, with them even commiting genocide right now in gaza. with western europe nowadays being nothing more than a satellite of the us, you also mention china and russia, neither of whom are imperialist, since their capitalist economies arent yet in the late stages that make imperialist ambitions possible and necessary. moreover both have historically been victims of western imperialism, and while russia had in fact an imperialist phase until 1917, it never even came close to the atrocities commited by the west.
and no, anti-imperialists like me dont want “revenge”, but justice. such justice can only be achieved by dismantling the illegal settler colony named usa and finally freeing the prison house of nations.
in your second point, you, despite dismissing the study of history previously, try to make references to historical happenings. your only problem is, that you are wrong and end up with nothing but regurgitated cia propaganda, since russia isnt mirroring nazi germany in any way, quite the opposite. the only reason one like you could make such a statement is if you dont know how the nazis operated and who their supporters were. russia is being surrounded and attacked by fascist nato forces, as well as their neonazi proxies, since decades and has shown an incredible amount of restraint in that situation, not only referring from military measures for the longest time, but even trying to cooperate with western powers. the smo is just russia finally making a stand for itself, something that imho should have been done much sooner.
you then compare русский мир to the german lebensraum, concepts that are also entirely unrelated. the german nazi concept is simply a more modern version of the american manifest destiny, an incredibly vile genocidal ideology, that btw also inspired the current zionist colonial project, with the only difference between the two being that the older example succeeded. the russian one meanwhile, while of course being a nationalist concept worthy of criticism, only calls for a sphere of russian cultural and political influence, something that in comparison is rather harmless.
your later notions of alleged russian puppet states demanding to join nato, as well of the ukraine being sovereign after 2014 and most hilariously the west having some semblance of free press that is somehow enlightening the people just look like idealist phantasies with absolutely no ground in reality to me, with me honestly shocked how people are still believing such things after things like operation aerodynamic and operation mockingbird became public information.
the last thing i would like to point out to you is that demands for taiwanese independence should only come from indigenous taiwanese people, not immigrated han chinese who since then unjustly assumed the taiwanese cultural identity. incidentally the indigenous population is one of the core demographics among supporters of reunification with the prc.
and no, i dont claim russia and the prc to be perfect, but they are still obviously preferable over the greatest enemy of mankind that is western imperialism.
This is just sad to hear and i don’t think arguing on the internet is gonna bring is anywhere. I don’t understand where your US fantasy and obsession comes from, siting cases that are from the 50’ and not really related to your point. It sounds like desperate fearmongering by an authoritarian state to stay relevant in front of its population. Ironically, the aggressive actions of russia is what push EU countries away closer to the US as it doesnt leave us any other choice. Russia was a major trading partner and vital to european economies. Ukraine biggest allies after all are from eastern europe(ex russian colonies), the evil imperialist that wants to destroy russia doesnt seem that interested in the conflict as this thread is about. You can it how you want and replace revenge with justice but committing atrocities on your neighbor, is not a productive way for justice. Just shows some imperialistic bloodlust eastern european countries are wary off. Please dont forget that eastern europe are also people with their own minds and that the only thing we want is peace we would love to be closer to russia but its not the path your leaders are willing to go to. Instead creating divisions with whatever usa narrative they are pushing. Have a conflict with the us if thats what you want but please let us be and dont involve us in that.
I will mention gaza as it is so often used as an argument, but the evil controlled press puppet of the CIA is actually quite outraged by the actions of israel, followed by its population having more and more Europeans government taking an in increasingly harder stance, politics are slow but have to follow the heart of the population at some point. Dont forget that russians are the dominant ethnic group in israel since you love talking about historical points. We have our hands quite full with our issues here but seems like people cant stop to ask for our intervention abroad. I would like to remind that eu countries never vetoed anything, rather abstained and stayed out of the conflict as the world has shown us with ukraine that they dont want to intervene in foreign conflict.
Just a point i find facinating, Its quite cute how you describe rusky mir, just think for a second how do you think a average german citizen would have described lebensraum in their times? Try to mature the world is not as black and white as you wish it was. I would like to remind you that the russian leaders called ukraine as a non state that should be eradicated, which i find quite at odd with your ‘pacific description’
People in this thread clearly don’t understand what the implications are. There is a very clear danger of war on the European continent that will involve NATO and by proxy the US. Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option. Europe is not going to just let Ukraine fall and will ramp up their involvement. We already have France willing to send troops.
You don’t understand that the only danger of further war is again from US/NATO. Europe is going to let Ukraine fall because it has no choice. France is a laughing stock. Even what they threatened to send could do nothing.
Comment from the Torygrapgh readership:
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
@LarkinDePark @Alsjemenou because appeasement totally works with dictators and lebensraum
I honestly don’t think Zelensky is a Nazi. He may be an open Nazi collaborator but I think he sees that as a necessity. Dictator yes, but lebensraum? You mean with the breakaways?
“By proxy” doesn’t change the nature of what he is. Collaboration is complicity. If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.
@LarkinDePark appeasing putin with the slaughter of Kyiv won’t stop him from taking the transinistra.
putin needs to be stopped.
How do the people of Transinistria feel about this?
the US is already involved by proxy
Well not very much with that speakerguy in the house.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Ok genocidaire
Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option
One who consider a proxy war where thousand people die and a country get destroyed the “cheapest option” tells you how much they are in bad faith. For politicians your life is indeed cheap and something they can trash away for profits
So no aid to Ukraine and show Russia that it can indeed start wars where thousands die and destroy countries, without negative consequences?
As long as it doesn’t mess up with their business no government in the world care if russia starts a war. Where’s the aid to gaza as a genocide is happening at the hands of israel? War is a business and politicians wants more of it
Where are the negative consequences for America? Why can America invade any country it wants and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children but for some reason when Russia does it we have to show them they aren’t allowed?
Only America and its allies can start wars and commit genocides?
I didn’t condone the USA’s actions, and it’s clear from your comment that you assume I would. It’s clear to me who is the aggressor in this conflict between Ukraine and Russia, and it’s not Ukraine.
Don’t let your disdain for one imperialist push you over to another.
Classic whataboutism.
Because the US does interventionism, fund far-right politicians, etc., Russia (and China) can do as such, and even more. At least the US doesn’t want to “regain it’s old lost territories”.
In fairness it’s a solid criticism considering there’s two kinds of comparisons that aren’t made on equal footing. To argue U.S.'s kind of intervention is the same as the Russias, would be more appropriate to consider Russia’s pre 2014 involvement in Ukraine. If you want to compare full-scale military operations then ZILtoid makes a good point. We haven’t tried to annex another country in a long time.
This is a delicate situation. If a NATO country is sending troops to Ukraine, it will escalate the war into a full blown world war.
We know what happened in both world wars, so there is no good answers here.
The good answer is not seeking war and destruction
Generally, I’d agree with that sentiment. However, what path forward would provide the best way out of the situation and discourage further conflict in the region?
When we look at the lead up to WW2, we see a build-up of tension by Germany and attempted appeasement by the other major powers in an effort to avoid another breakout of war in Europe, only a few decades after the first great war ravaged these nations.
Notable events:
- Remilitarization of the Rhineland (Mar 1936) – this was a clear power move and violation of the Treaty of Versailles that ended WW1. With no real reaction from the France/Britain, this was a clear indication to Hitler he could continue to push things much further.
- Anschluss (Annexation of Austria, Mar 1938) - Germany was prepared to take Austria by force, but managed to do so with only the threat of violence. This was also against the Treaty of Versailles and also had no real reaction from the Allied powers.
- Sudetenland conquest (Sept 1938) - Germany pressures Czechoslovakia for pieces of it’s territory that border Germany. British PM finally gets involved, allowing the exchange of territory for a promise of peace. This is the famous " Peace for our time declaration.
- Annexation of territory from Lithuania (Mar 1939) - Lithuania pressed to give up territory under threat of war.
- Czech/Slovokia split and occupation/control (Mar 1939) - Under further pressure and threat of invasion, Czechoslovakia split and both come under German control.
- Invasion of Poland by Germany and USSR (Sept 1939) - First open conflict. France and Britain declare war on Germany, roughly a year after the “Peace for our time” negotiations/declaration that clearly made a difference!
As you can see, in the build-up to WW2, the European powers that opposed German expansion sought alternatives. They even allowed Germany to push its weight around on its neighbors, taking territory from others, and consolidating power. By the time the great powers were forced into conflict by open war in Poland, they were no longer in a position to hope to control Germany at all, doubly so with their apparent new cooperation with the USSR.
Knowing what happened, it’s easy to see that any intervention by France and/or Britain, whether it sparked violence or not, in the early days of German aggression would have almost certainly led to a less powerful Germany, perhaps one that could not have taken over most of Europe so easily.
I think the key take away from all of this is that, modern nations that have a desire for conquest are a danger to all. They are not to be believed, they should not be appeased, they should not be rewarded. Any violence against free nations should be resisted, supported by all free nations, but without escalation to full-blown nuclear war.
The danger of washing our hands of the conflict and saying something like, “Violence bad. End the war. They can have Ukraine/Donetsk/whatever.” is that Russia won’t stop there. They’ll get bigger, stronger, and move on to the next target when they’re ready.
The horrible part about all of this is that the apparent best way to keep long-term violence down is to continue the fighting now. The longer the conflict continues, and the more humiliated Russia becomes, the less likely Russia will chose to do a similar invasion in the future.
Generally, I’d agree with that sentiment. However, what path forward would provide the best way out of the situation and discourage further conflict in the region?
Stopping the war industry and ceasing all sort of imperialistic activities, even on one side alone will put at end on most conflicts but every ruler is in for more wealth and power, they don’t want to stop. This does not mean that because someone is doing it everyone has to follow suit, it literally means that every corrupted politician and their government seek war.
If there’s anything to be extrapolated from history is that ramping up for war and fueling authoritarian regimes brings you exactly war and dictatorships.
Any violence against free nations should be resisted
So do you agree that palestine should have the rights to defend themself against israel?
The danger of washing our hands
If there’s anyone washing their hands is politicians drinking champagne in dubai next to russian yachts. The same politicians that send people money to ukraine goverement.
Stopping the war industry and ceasing all sort of imperialistic activities, even on one side alone will put at end on most conflicts but every ruler is in for more wealth and power, they don’t want to stop. This does not mean that because someone is doing it everyone has to follow suit, it literally means that every corrupted politician and their government seek war.
I think this is overly naive and simplistic.
So do you agree that palestine should have the rights to defend themself against israel?
(I’m not as well versed in this conflict, but a few thoughts from my perspective)
The situation and power dynamics are quite different there. I don’t have any easy answer unfortunately.
- Palestine doesn’t have a conventional army or a means to fight Israel the same way Ukraine is fighting Russia.
- Israel’s reaction and occupation of Gaza Strip is horrible.
- Historically, Israel’s treatment of Palestinian people has been completely unacceptable.
- Hamas’ actions have been awful, both historically and with the first attack in October where they started this conflict. Their attacks routinely target civilians, which is unacceptable.
So, if there are people living in Palestine who want to fight the occupiers, that perspective makes sense to me. So, at the most basic level, yes – I think they should be able to defend themselves. However, Hamas historically seems prioritized only in hurting Israel, and their actions routinely hurt Palestine in a number of ways. Plus, supporting terrorist organizations (like Hamas) with arms/training/etc has worked out poorly for the US in the past.
So, unfortunately, I think there are no “good guys” here (besides the civilians caught up in this who want peace). I think both Israel and Hamas steered into this conflict when alternative course of actions existed. Conflict between these groups has been ongoing for decades and has no good or simple solution.
Yeah, but Russia invaded Ukraine. So what should be done now.
If left to their own devices, Ukraine would be annexed to Russia and surrounding countries would be next. The casualties would probably be less here (not guaranteed) and the quality of life of the Ukrainians would drastically degrade.
If NATO sends boots on the ground, then it becomes a full blown world war with warring countries having lots of nukes. The casualties are enormous with a potential doomsday scenario.
Right now, NATO finance a proxy war. Ukrainians fight back and hard to shut out Russians. They need the tech and financing to do so. If they don’t have it, Russia takes over and we go back to the first scenario. Casualties are high.
There is no good ending where Russia negotiate peace and return home. War fucking sucks, and there is no good answer.
Yeah, but Russia invaded Ukraine. So what should be done now.
What about putting sanction on china for providing russia weapons or on emirates and turkey for allowing russian to just chill there and bypass restrictions?
If left to their own devices, Ukraine would be annexed to Russia and surrounding countries would be next.
Where do you got this from? Is Israel planning to invade the whole middle east after they invaded gaza?
the quality of life of the Ukrainians would drastically degrade.
Would it actually? Ukraine turned into an authoritatian regime under martial law where no man between 18 and 60 can leave the country. There’s probably many brave ukranians fighting for freedom but it’s the ukranian government getting money and weapons.
The casualties are already high and the country is getting destroyed, it’s just not happening in your garden
The answer is the west won. Presumably a good answer
Anglo dominance over the world is why the world is ending. Y’all are fucking shit stewards of a planet.
I’m not talking about just money. Of course in current capitalist society we analyse through the lens of finances. But obviously the cost of war includes the loss of human life. And of course some people will manage to profit financially from war. This isn’t a revolutionary thought.
What I mean is that due to the obligation of being a NATO member, there is no way around having to join war in the EU. Actual boots on the ground, full blown, war machine goes choo-choo war. That costs many hundreds or even thousands of American lives. And yes, billions a day.
If you don’t want that, then having Putin lose in Ukraine in key. It’s key because it will diminish his political backing in Russia.
That costs many hundreds or even thousands of American lives.
Better dispose of the ukrainians instead
America isn’t disposing anybody. Russia is.
But Amarica bad, hypercapitalist dictator good.
It is a bad idea to trust and rely on Ameeica. Some Afgans learned this lesson in 2021, the same is happening to Ukraine now.
Many such cases!
Gaddafi’s is just sad. Such a terrible decision to give up their nuclear deterrence and trust western governments.
Nukes are why the DPRK hasn’t been invaded again, and why it hasn’t ended up Libya is now.
Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for peace with Russia, then got invaded by Russia.
they weren’t ukrainian nukes. they were soviet nukes and ukraine didn’t have the money or expertise to take care of them.
I wouldn’t put it that way exactly. Ukraine was a constituent part of the USSR, and eastern Ukraine was a major industrial hub. I don’t know the history of it, but perhaps giving the nukes to Russia was part of the deal made in the Post-Soviet transition in Ukraine.
Russia inherited the Soviet military for the most part. It’s unlikely that Ukraine could have used those nukes in the first place.
Ukraine was very much at peace with Russia as it always had been before the 2014 coup and the resulting fascist gov that didn’t care about such agreements.
The fascist government is the one invading Ukraine, my guy.
How many times are we going to go over this, my guy?
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia
Removed by mod
Sad, but true
Removed by mod
Gaddafi was a leader in the liberation struggle against the Global North’s imperialism.
It was Gaddafi who was sodomized with a bayonet. Wikipedia: Killing of Muammar Gaddafi
The NTC initially claimed Gaddafi died from injuries sustained in a firefight when loyalist forces attempted to free him, although a video of his last moments shows rebel fighters beating him and one of them sodomizing him with a bayonet before he was shot several times.
In typical US fashion, it fabricated atrocities as a pretext for regime change: 2011 Libyan rape allegations
Three women, loads of lies and the destruction of Libya
Hillary Clinton, Susan Rice and Samantha Power were the three principal advocates of war against Libya in 2011, setting the North African nation on a free fall ever since. Demonstrations broke out in some Libyan cities against the government of late Muammar Gaddafi in February 2011, in what became known as the “Arab Spring” that engulfed the region. However, Libya’s promised spring turned into a destructive autumn during which Gaddafi was murdered on 20 October, 2011, and Libya was left anguishing in lawlessness, courtesy of the three women.
The US does this all the time; it’s still doing it. The blueprint of regime change operations
Fight for “democracy” /s
subjects
You mean insurgents funded by the west after having them give up their nuclear deterrence because it posed a major threat to capitalism/imperialism in the region.
Libya went from one of the poorest countries in the world to having the highest human development index in Africa by 2010 under the socialist government. Housing and healthcare were made a human right and youth literacy reached pretty much 100%.
Yes, I’ll have sympathy for the country that was basically extorted by the west through brutal sanctions into disarming itself so it could be invaded and destroyed, as any human should.
He made it better for Arabs, everyone else was treated horribly. But hey I guess being a dictator is fine as long as the people you like are being treated okay and fuck everyone else. How very Modi of you.
He made it better for Arabs, everyone else was treated horribly.
Who was everyone else?
But hey I guess being a dictator
Libya in Gaddafi’s time was more democratic than the United States has ever been. Libya: How To Kill a Nation
When Five Eyes governments and corporate media tell you that someone’s a “dictator,” they do it to manufacture consent for regime change.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
[citation needed]
Ukraine rely on a lot more than just the USA. But what else can they do? It’s either that or they get annexed.
Their are a small country versus a world power.
The region doesn’t rely on the US, the post-2014 fascist government that doesn’t care about the wishes of eastern Ukrainians does.
There wasn’t a problem here until the US-backed coup in 2014 and subsequent killing of eastern Ukrainians and Crimeans (if you’re wondering why Crimeans overwhelmingly support Russia) by the coup gov for resisting, which also doesn’t respect the Minsk agreements to stay neutral.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
fascist
You mean Putin?
No yew
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
ridiculed everywhere else
Just the anglosphere-dominated spaces like reddit that are full of US propaganda.
Feel free to point out what you disagree with.
Well, you spelled Ukraine correctly, I guess
Removed by mod
So… no argument?
If the lead and microplastics in the water don’t take you out, overt collapse will; and I pray I get to watch it happen you absolute defect
You replying seems to indicate otherwise.
Loving the ableism btw
Biden frantically sends more aid to israel
It’s not his money I don’t he really care where they get wasted
nice job america, now in addition to everything else, you’ve lost a war you weren’t even fighting in. Fuck yeah!
Are you implying Ukraine has lost the war? That’s just not true, they still hold territory that according to Putin is part of Russia
deleted by creator
“you have lost” is past tense
Yes, “you have lost” is present perfect and describes that the loss occurred at some unspecified point in time before. It can also describe a loss which effects can still be felt in the present.
The implication is that OP is convinced that Ukraine has no chance of holding their lines, as you correctly pointed out earlier.
Definately NOT proxy cannon fodder
Countries will get fed up of sending aid to Ukraine long before Russia decides to return its annexed territories. We’re already seeing signs of that.
If NATO isn’t willing to go in and force the Russians out themselves, I fail to see how this war is anything but a net gain for Russia. They will just sit back and let their “new territories” become more and more Russified.
To me, the aid is just a delaying tactic to allow Ukraine to continue fighting until the west can figure out a way to accept that Ukraine has lost its territories without losing face.
It’s a shit show, but I don’t share the optimism that a lot of people have for a Ukrainian victory. It’s like a game of chess, and it’s currently Ukraine/NATOs turn, because the Russians are already dug in.
Over 100k dead Russians isn’t really a “net victory” regardless of territory gained
Ukraine=Palestine. Noone will fight for ir and will get robbed by the powerful bandit, Israel (Rússia).
Except that US politicians pretend it’s the opposite
Ukraine=Palestine and Israel=Russia is peak Marvel brain.
Germany=Britain
Benin=Lichtenstein
Yakub = Jesus
What’s Marvel brain? I tried looking it up but just got a bunch of marvel characters with large heads.
Idealist, cartoonish, black & white, good vs. evil thinking. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists thinking.
Imperial core governments and the corporate media present to us a cartoonish, Marvel Cinematic Universe version of the world that serves the capitalist class’ interests, particularly their imperialist interests. Inventing Reality and Manufacturing Consent laid this out almost 40 years ago.
Ukraine=good=democracy, Russia=bad=authoritarian. Russia’s invasion was unprovoked because history began on Feb. 24, 2022. Russia is doing genocide (bullshit), never mind the previous decade of Ukraine-backed neonazis genociding the people of the Donbas; or that, for 30 years, people from Noam Chomsky to Jeffrey Sachs to Henry Kissinger warned against breaking our promise not to expand NATO eastward toward Russia. Russia is an oligarchy, never mind Ukraine’s oligarchic coup government that the US installed a decade ago. Ukraine is a democracy, never mind that it has suspended opposition parties and cancelled elections.
Removed by mod
Ukraine is already losing and unless something crazy happens they will lose.
That’s why Congress doesn’t want to send more aid.
No reason to let the Russians capture more patriot batteries…
Republicans are good buddies with Putin. If Trump would have been in power, he would have been selling weapons for the Russians, then play along with the whole “Ukrainians are actually Russians” stuff of Putin.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
ok but y r u here tho
There are plenty of good Lemmy communities that aren’t on those instances. I don’t blanket block them personally, but I understand those who do.
Someone has to downvote you
Go back to Reddit and have your opinions fed to you by billion dollar corporations
Folks, Holden Caulfield thinks we’re phonies. Mission failed; we’ll get ’em next time.
Copypasta from https://lemmy.ml/comment/9279492
- IT Pro: Cambridge Analytica models were exaggerated and ineffective, [UK Information Commissioner’s Office] claims
- Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesn’t Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia
- Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets
- Washington Post: FEC fines DNC, Clinton for violating rules in funding Steele dossier
- Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters
- Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election
- Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork
- Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big Deal On the Left, there’s been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitter’s internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.
- MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
- Jeff Gerth at Columbia Journalism Review on Russiagate: Editor’s Note | Part one | Part two | Part three | Part four
- Matt Taibbi: WMD, Part II: CIA “Cooked The Intelligence” To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016
- Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Won’t Go Away
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
You could easily achive your goal by going back to reddit, there’s nothing wrong with it. Seems like federated international community hosted by enthusiasts is just not your cup of tea. Centralized platform which goes to IPO would be able to provide you with echo chamber that you seek for.
Can’t wait until this shit is over so that all the shit-for-brains boomers finally take down all their stupid flags.
Which Congress?
Exactly. People need to remember that this is the Internet, not their home country. We don’t know where you’re from.
You can use your powers of deductive reasoning to come to the correct answer.
Or maybe you can’t… lol.
There are two types of people. Those who can extrapolate a conclusion from an incomplete data set and
Which do you think?
The Central Australian Aboriginal Congress?
