- cross-posted to:
- opensource@lemmy.ml
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- opensource@lemmy.ml
- linux@lemmy.ml
Quite a few posts about selecting a distro to use. Maybe it’s time to make that link a little more prominent?
Oh boy here we go again
Distrochooser is not a good resource for newbies IMO. There are too many questions, many of which are misleading or hard to understand (NOBODY taking this knows what systemd is)
Many answers are misleasing: “I want a distro that is supported by game publishers” for example implies each distro has its own game compatibility, this is NOT the case.
And when you’re finally done it recommends too many distros, many of which are irrelevant, niche, or flat out not recommended anymore (PCLinuxOS?!?!)
When someone asks for a distro, please just run a random number generator to choose between ZorinOS, PopOS, or Linux Mint. If someone is only gaming, maybe include Nobara too.
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It would actually be pretty effective. Just have it return one of the mainstream distros and be done.
Style it like a Tux slot machine. Click on the raised wing to pull it down and let the reels roll, stopping on the perfect distro for you!
Exactly! Many of the criteria included aren’t all that good for new users, and neither are the suggestions. It’s not really a good resource for experienced users either.
One of us could probably put that together pretty quickly lol
But if we did want to build a new distro recommender… Maybe there are like 5 or so questions that would be relevant.
Just off the top of my head some possibilities:
If you’re a beginner, Mint is a good choice. One could argue Ubuntu (noobs don’t gaf about snap if they even know what it is). I think noobs would want good GUI tools and a very popular, very polished distro. So issues are infrequent but finding answers is easy.
Into gaming? There’s a few distros that come up like Nobara. (I’ve seen Manjaro mentioned but idk).
If you want something that looks kinda like macos there’s Endeavor. Does anyone recommend that one these days? I don’t usually see it mentioned.
Idk.
You’re probably right, an rng that chooses between a few distros might be better lol
You mixed up Endeavor with Elementary OS, Endeavpr is an arch based distro that you can choose several DE’s or WM’s witj
Ah right. I’m an idiot.
mistakes happen :)
Exactly. If you have to ask this sort of question, the answer is those three. Everything else is just confusing.
Yeah, I disagree. It’s the least subjective resource I can find as nobody asks the questions on that questionnaire here. I’d much prefer it if people used distrochooser and then shared their answers (e.g https://distrochooser.de/en/d5b60b6e6134/), wrote some extra stuff e.g “I want NVIDIA support because I want CUDA” or something, and based on that, we recommend distros. Instead of the herd mentality of “duh, linux mint stoopeed”
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That avoiding systemd is even a choise is nuts
I really want to know what the crossover is on people who know what systemd is, much less have any actual reason to decide they wish to actively avoid it, and those who would find this the best way of determining their next distro. That has to be a vanishingly small group of people.
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Deceptive list that appears to include only distros that don’t package systemd at all. A distro can offer more than one init system. For instance, Gentoo defaults to OpenRC but offers systemd as an option for users who want it for whatever reason. It isn’t on that list.
(But I agree that if you know what systemd is and that you don’t want it, you’re not using Distrochooser. You’re not looking up your next distro in Wikipedia, either.)
Keep in mind that you are an experienced user of linux.
This site is probably about people who are both inexperienced, and also may not have time to adequately learn the system the way you have.
And no, as someone who has gone through Fedora, Mint, and Arch, saying they’re for “everyone” just assumes everyone is going to use linux the same way you do. Which is a huge mistake. Arch didn’t even have a normal installer up until a year ago, the process even with the arch wiki guide is completely unwieldy for most users to do. Many distros disable popular codecs by default, which a lot of users wouldn’t have the patience for. Some will have Nvidia drivers for up to date for gaming, and some won’t.
And most of all, you’re also running new users into the choice dilemma, where there’s so many options they just won’t know what to pick.
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Fedora is not for everyone. I think the assessment of that site is correct. When I first installed it, it came with KDE and Wayland installed. Wayland couldn’t share screens at the time and my webcam didn’t work. Which new user has the time to understand the difference between X11 and Wayland? I also wanted to install OBSStudio and finding an rpm repo was no fun at all.
In the end, I uninstalled Fedora.
I agree that Fedora’s habit for pushing (sometimes breaking) changes is definitely something to keep an eye out. However, it has been so good over the last (almost) two years. I would even argue that Fedora has become more self-conscious of the consequences and (especially) how this might affect their more casual user base.
Btw, how long ago did you try out Fedora? FWIW, Fedora (Silverblue; to be more precise[1]) was the first distro that I’ve tried and while I’ve had some experiences with other distros over time (mostly through dual boot), Fedora (Atomic) seems to have become the distro I call home.
- It’s probably not as masochistic as you might think for a new user 😅. Though I’d have to say that it took some effort, control and discipline to not instantly go back to Windows (or any other Linux distro for that matter).
Fedora must’ve been during COVID, because I can’t remember the year. If things are better now, then maybe distrochooser has to be updated. It’s on github, so if you believe it’s become user-friendly, do contribute.
Fedora must’ve been during COVID, because I can’t remember the year.
That explains a lot of why you felt that way about Fedora. Thank you for enlightening us on that!
If things are better now, then maybe distrochooser has to be updated.
Can’t agree more.
It’s on github, so if you believe it’s become user-friendly, do contribute.
Honestly, I’ve tried to contribute in the past; but it didn’t feel as if they got implemented. Perhaps the maintainer has implemented them without making it noticeable to met, but in its current iteration it doesn’t feel as if that’s case. I’ve since given up on it.
While I get why distrochooser.de is romanticized, in its current iteration it’s simply not very good and anyone that is somewhat well-versed in how different distros operate and how Distrochooser works, will tell you the same. At best, it provides some orientation into what some of the more common distros are. But it fails to answer some fundamental questions in the process; like:
- What is the relation between a distro and its derivative and (more importantly) how does that matter to a user?
- How exactly does a distribution’s chosen release model affect software and updates? And while we’re into that, what’s even the difference between the “stable” used when talking about point release distros that opt to freeze packages over longer periods of time vs the “stable” that’s brought up in conversations regarding update concerns and how they might break software (I’m honestly not even sure if the one(s) responsible for writing the parts of Distrochooser even know(s) themselves)[1].
There are a lot of other fundamental questions that are involved in the decision for picking a distro that would have made a lot more sense than the ones found on Distrochooser. E.g. Do you use an Nvidia GPU and want this to cause no issues in the process of installation and is this your biggest concern? If yes: then just use Pop!_OS. Otherwise, move on to the other questions etc. I think the fact that a flowchart isn’t used for some uses and that ultimately priorities aren’t brought up to finalize the decision are the two biggest issues that Distrochooser has in its current iteration.
And we haven’t even gone over the many distros that despite having little to no user base are still included in the results, while (more recent) ‘staples’ like Garuda and Nobara are clearly left out for reasons most likely related to the maintainers not being able to keep up with the Linux landscape. Which, to be fair, is quite hard; so I don’t blame them. I, in fact, applaud them for their continued contributions and hope that some day it will become something that we can proudly present to others for their first orientation.
Allow me to end this with a question to OP:
- Do you feel the same way about excellent websites like DistroWatch.com and DistroSea?[2]
- If yes; Why didn’t you make a similar post for either of the two instead?
- If no; Why not?
- Sure, there is some overlap in what they mean and how they’re used, but it’s a very important distinction; otherwise openSUSE’s stable rolling release designation for their Tumbleweed wouldn’t make any sense.
- If anything, I think these two actually make more sense to be included.
IMO you’re thinking too much as an advanced user for a simple user. The only point I agree on is the NVIDIA GPU. If you feel up to it, contribute. The website’s code is on Github https://github.com/distrochooser/distrochooser
I’ve never heard of nor used Garuda. As I said, feel free to contribute.
Do you feel the same way about excellent websites like DistroWatch.com and DistroSea?
Never heard of DistroSea. It seem like a good complement to DistroChooser. It works for most usecases:
- narrow down what fits for you by answering a questionnaire (DistroChooser)
- if you feel like it, test a few of the suggested distros from the questionnaire on DistroSea
DistroWatch as useful as statista.com for suggesting your next travel destination. If you had to travel somewhere and had a list of criteria, but didn’t want to spend all day researching, would you go to a travel agent or open an encyclopedia?
I think many in the community, like yourself, have forgotten what it’s like to give just enough of a fuck to change something but not to want to be too invested. A beginner isn’t going to want to understand why a system is stable or not: they just want a stable system. You don’t have to explain to them “Yeah, so the configuration is a file, you see? Only you edit that file. Then you run this command that interprets the file and build a dependency tree, downloads everything necessary, to a partition that’s temporarily mounted as read-write, symlinks to…”. Nobody cares. The average user DGAF.
Imagine if you just wanted to get a vacuum cleaner at the store with 3 criteria. Imagine you don’t give a rat’s ass about vacuum cleaner. You just want to point the thing at the ground, let it succ all the bits, but as quietly as possible, and not break down in 2 years to force you back out here. But the sales person you get harps on about the genius of the person who invented some internal component you’ve never heard of, goes on to explain why, ideologically, getting a certain brand is the only way because blablablabla. Maybe you’d buy a vacuum cleaner just to shut them up or walk out of the store.
My optimal experience would be the sales person listening to me, lining up the best candidates, and explaining, in bullet points, why they are there. Then finally, ask me if I have a favorite and to give me a test environment. If I don’t understand something, I can ask more questions.- narrow down options --> DistroChooser
- test them --> DistroSea
- more questions --> right here
Thank you for your response. But our conversation seems so far somewhat inefficient. And I fear it might be due to reasons related to the XY problem. Therefore, before I reply to the points made in the above comment, I would like to ask you if you could state the following:
- Ultimately, what are you trying to achieve (and why); what is the problem even?
- What is your solution to this problem? And where does adding Distrochooser to the sidebar come into plan? Have you perhaps thought of other possible solutions and why they might be inferior to the suggested one?
Thank you in advance!
Ultimately, what are you trying to achieve (and why); what is the problem even?
There have been complaints in posts about people asking for advice on which disto to use, that there are too many such posts.
What is your solution to this problem?
Provide users the tools to possibly answer the question themselves before creating a post.
And where does adding Distrochooser to the sidebar come into plan?
DistroChooser is a self-help tool for that purpose.
Have you perhaps thought of other possible solutions and why they might be inferior to the suggested one?
- keep answering posts --> more complaints, possibly silent quitting of community
- write bot --> I ain’t got the time, maybe somebody has, dunno what the bot would do
- find alternative website --> I ain’t got the time
XY problem confirmed. Thank you OP!
There have been complaints in posts about people asking for advice on which disto to use, that there are too many such posts.
This is a legit concern.Thank you for trying to tackle this!
Provide users the tools to possibly answer the question themselves before creating a post.
Noble. And in its essence, it makes a lot of sense.
DistroChooser is a self-help tool for that purpose.
As a self-help tool it’s very bad. Sorry*. I actually hoped that you would mention how it might be used as a basic requirement for anyone that asks which distro to use. The enforcement could be done with a bot which simply scans if any link to distrochooser is present in a post that remotely resembles one that asks for advice on which distro to use. I would actually even argue against this, but I think we might be able to reach an agreement on which questions are actually worth keeping around for further use…
- keep answering posts --> more complaints, possibly silent quitting of community
Honestly, this is better than to limit newbies to strictly stick to Distrochooser for asking which distro they should use 🤣.
- write bot --> I ain’t got the time, maybe somebody has, dunno what the bot would do
I haven’t got any experience with building a bot, but I suppose it works by scanning for words in posts. In that case, simply ‘flagging’ everything that contains the words “which” or “what” in combination with “distro(s)” or “distribution(s)” and ask them to refer their questions to a dedicated Lemmy community in which they can ask would already solve a lot.
- find alternative website --> I ain’t got the time
You don’t have to find an alternative website. Nor write one yourself. As it stands, as far as I’m aware, there’s simply nothing that satisfies the basic needs for this.
So what do I propose? Relegating these questions to their own dedicated Lemmy community is probably a great and easy solution. If something like a test/algorithm/flowchart/quiz/whatever has to be created, then that one might need substantial effort to get off the ground. However, perhaps comments like these might be helpful as a blueprint.
Distro chooser recommends nowadays non existent distros and arch to beginners you are saying “you are thinking too much as an afvanced user blah blah” It is important to know üf your disyro supports the hardware you use thta’s not afvanced and I also saw you call people who recommend mintaffecyed bu “herd mentality”. It is recommended because it is easy for new users stop romanticising an unfinished tool.
In addition, to what everyone has already said, Distrochooser is just bad. It will often pull the stupid card, like this one:
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What would it include?
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That’s why distrochooser is a questionnaire 🤷
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“systemd question shouldn’t be there”
skip it
“NVIDIA GPU question is missing”
contribute https://github.com/distrochooser/distrochooser
“too many options”
I want to say “read it”, but IMO this is presentation, because pros and cons are clearly listed, but maybe it looks like a lot of text. Maybe people need some kind of visual like a podium and a drum roll. 🥁 “aaaand your top suggestions arreeee”…
Also, people aren’t suggesting alternatives except: “make a bot that randomly picks a popular distro”. Is that really how we want to treat new users? “Please hold, in the meantime, here’s an automated response.” Do you follow advice given in automated responses when you’re holding on a line?
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Let’s not. It’s not a good tool.
Why not?
At first I was with this but the first set of questions is so stupid that I can’t see that being a good idea.
Somebody just code up a bot that picks a random mainstream distro everytime somebody asks “what distro should I use?”
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Have you seen the Reddit Linux communities? People don’t care how many tools or useful information you present them. They will ask the SAME “which distro” questions day after day after day.
There are 3 reasons you see repeat posts.
- They are extremely lazy and can’t be bothered to find their way through a maze of information.
- The maze of information is legitimately confusing and they need help. But they are bad at formulating good questions so it looks like point #1. I very rarely see people take the time to explain what they’ve tried and why they failed.
- They want a conversation and getting their question answered is only one half of it.
Also one other thing I noticed is that if you do form a good question and create a wall of text, it can also scare people away. So people deliberately ask very vague questions and then slowly reveal more as they get asked for specifics. At that point you’ve hooked some people, they are a little more invested in helping and you can info dump on them.
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That’s what bots are for: an automated response like “have you tried XXX? share the link to the results here with additional information if you think the questionnaire didn’t consider an aspect important to you”.
It’s a soft response without banning anybody.
It recommends obviously wrong choices like Tails
I just took it favoring a daily driver for gaming and every distro it gave had either didn’t work, isn’t optimized for, or requires additional config for gaming.
wat? got a screenshot or a link to the result?
No matter what I choose, I have to scroll literally to at least half or the end of the page to see Tails. Congrats on finding it in the list, I guess?
Distro chooser is bad, so nah
Nah, I think just recommending the most popular distro is usually best because when new users do run into issues there are years of forums that has probably answered their question before and is just one search away
According to distrowatch for a couple of years going MX/linux is nearly twice as popular as the second most popular.
MX were part of the mepis community antiX belonged to too, with more than a decade of history and body of forum discussion.Distrowatch stats aren’t reliable at all
Which stats are valid?
IBM puppet rag phoronix? For over a decade they have not made a single reference an alternative to systemd exists or a distribution without systemd actually exists.