Absolutely. Though as we were discussing elsewhere in this post, humans can be evil, and selfish, and greedy, and people can literally help bring back slavery rather than force themselves to truly look at it, call it out as “bad”, and do something about it.
I somewhat understand the other side of the argument as well - like, if someone was old and just wanted to lie back and enjoy life for awhile (as we all will be someday, unless we die first), then who am I to take action or even desire to stop such a one from doing exactly that? On the other hand, someone who ACTUALLY does that causes little to no harm, whereas someone who does the OPPOSITE of that, e.g. by taking the action to vote - whether at a local school board, or on the state or especially federal level - that is when such a person’s rights end, the very moment that they begin to infringe upon the rights of others.
And like, if a child were to take a book out of the library and burn it, wouldn’t that child get in trouble? Maybe they would have to pay a fine, perhaps have disciplinary action taken against them such as being suspended, or if mitigating circumstances coexist then at least be sent to counseling? So how much more in trouble should an adult get into, if they likewise burn a book, or maybe… oh… let’s say that they lead a violent attempt to overthrow the democratically-elected government, shitting on the constitution and in the process, cause at least one police officer to be killed, brutally, with his screams of agony caught on video - how much should such a person be punished? (That is a trick question obviously, b/c it presumes that “justice” is what is dispensed at all.) Let us call this “individual 1”, but moving past that, how much responsibility would a new person hold, let’s call them “individual 2” if even AFTER all of that occurred, and I mean it is not secret but rather came to light and was publicly condemned by people in positions of authority everywhere (Democrats, Republicans, Independents, in the Executive, Legislative - both House and Senate - Judicial, as in Supreme Court, DOJ, federal lower courts, etc.), this person (individual 2) actually votes for individual 1?
When we step up to become leaders, then we take on additional responsibility beyond the common man. Voting is similarly a position of responsibility, in determining what will be done in the USA. As people vote - again, whether in small, local matters such as school board issues, or even more so at the larger levels that affect so many more people besides one’s own self + family + even neighbors - I would hope that they would remember the lessons of history, so that we do not have to repeat them. However, since that turns out not to be true, it seems that slavery will be coming back… it is here already in fact, in many areas in the south where there are more incarcerated black people than there ever were as slaves, and I am not entirely convinced that everyone in there is fully a “criminal” (maybe, but the systems that push for convictions based on quotas, in those for-profit institutions, lends credence to the thought that not ALL of them are that way…); plus in any case employment seems to be becoming more slave-like all the time, as the “American dream” of potentially owning a home and thereby becoming financially independent is increasingly being taken away from so very many. We are already re-walking those paths, that so long ago we turned away from in disgust, but like a dog returning to its vomit… we cannot seem to help ourselves. Finally, I want to add that many people, e.g. in WWI and WWII both, literally gave their lives to fight against fascism spreading in other countries - however, fast-forward to today and a goodly fraction of people in America are indicating that they want to fight on the side for fascism, rather than against it. We are moving backwards, and not slowly either, but practically at a run:-( (though precisely how fast nobody seems to know, and I for one do not trust any media source anymore, nor do I see that changing anytime soon, which in itself should be an extremely troubling warning sign of things yet to come).
It seems difficult to put such people in jail for such “crimes” when for one thing, >40% of Americans think that it was a good thing, and for another thing, several congresspeople have stated that they were there and participated - some even lying about that - as a badge of honor and pride. Truth has gotten “twisted” so that it is not “True” anymore, in some people’s minds. Brainwashing techniques - e.g. repeating something ad nauseam so as to bypass the logical thought processes and instill it as “simply a fact” (even/especially when it is no such thing) - are extremely powerful, and I see efforts to use it on both sides of the political divide.
Speaking of, at one point in our history we were Americans first, members of a political party second, but this is no longer true, and nowadays someone’s political affiliation is the single greatest defining characteristic of them (that btw is not true - or at least might not be!? - but it seems to be many people’s perception in any case:-D).
And therefore, in order to stop the badness that whatever the “other side” will do, yes even murder captured on television apparently can be excused, and even celebrated for just how “peaceful” that protest was, and b/c it was so “peaceful”, perhaps it should be done again, around… oh, let’s say… the time of the next election maybe?
If you will allow me, I beg to differ: violence is the APPROPRIATE response, sometimes - rarely but not never. e.g., if you had a child who was being mauled by a dog, wouldn’t you go to their aid, and strike the dog to get it to go away? Of course you would - any sane, responsible person would.
These people are being brainwashed into thinking that by rising up, they are protecting the “true America”. Their heartfelt desire to protect things is GOOD. Their willingness to rise up and actually do something is GOOD. They are not complacent - they are literal heroes, in their own minds at least, but also called thus by those they respect, on the television, in the radio, in the “news” sources they choose to read, etc.
That is what is so twisted about the whole thing - it is not their badness or weaknesses that are being exploited (greed, lust, laziness, etc.), so much as their STRENGTHS, which are being re-directed towards an end that those who employ violence have not bothered to think through and understand. There IS a weakness involved, probably several (crowd mentality, giving up your agency to another rather than questioning everything - e.g. I Thessalonians 5:21 commands, though many preachers, especially evangelical Christianity, behind the pulpits in the Heartland of America do not teach that anymore… and instead are laying out the exact opposite message), but I do not think these people are themselves insane, so much as they are merely “normal”.
Which is not to say that the overall effect is not insanity, ofc.
And yeah I suspect the “Americans first” thing would be more the previous generation, like during WWI & II, when people had to stand together regardless of political affiliation, against an outside aggressor. Whereas today, that outside aggressor has patiently lain in wait for so long that the call (for violence) is now coming from inside our own house… even if its’ true origin derives from outside of it, e.g. Faux News dictating the talking points that Americans should follow, even if those came originally from Russia. Even if the latter country were to cease to exist literally today, the damage has already been done, and people in the USA now think how they wanted them to; but conversely even if the Republican party were to cease to exist today, those outside forces would continue to push for their desired ends… It is pressure from outside, and yet people today do not see it as that, and willingly go along with it.
We might agree more than we are letting on. I am doing a horrible job explaining my position though:-(. For one, I think we both agree that hypothetically there are SOMETIMES cases that only violence can solve, and then the real trick is to figure out when & where those cases are, yet they are EXCEEDINGLY rare and caution is best advised until people are ABSOLUTELY certain. And politically speaking, they almost never happen, but when they do they involve great deliberation and care, e.g. the USA entering into WWI and WWII in order to stop the spread of aggressive, violent nations at the expense of our allies; or like Ukranians defending their homeland from an imminent and ongoing invasion attempt.
But none of that describes what happened on January 6. I mean, how does defecating on a desk “protect the constitution”? Or smashing random stuff, rioting, looting, or crushing a police officer literally to death? Some of the people there, during the earlier peaceful phase, truly just wanted their voices to be heard, while others just were angry and took the excuse to do violence. But if someone truly wanted to “protect the constitution” as they claimed, then I happen to think that it might be worth, you know, reading it first!? Which takes real effort - maybe literal years of study in order to fully understand the context and all parts involved.
I suppose what I was trying to say then is that these outside agitators take a very real, honest, and good desire to do something - protect the homeland from badness - but twist it into conveying that you do NOT need to do the hard stuff like “study”, and instead you can simply show up at such and such an address at such and such a time, and your presence alone will be mostly enough. Bonus points for bringing guns, whether loaded or not they make a good “tough” image. Some very few people go a step further and do the actual violence, but it really helps to be able to blend into a crowd, i.e. the gullible people who have a conscience but weak follow-through (to actually understand any of what is going on) can be useful to those who desire to use them as meat-shields.
And to be clear I am neither advocating for the political violence, nor especially for the intentional gullibility that allows someone to be used as a meat shield by someone who actually does intend harm to innocents. I only meant that I understand that feeling at the very core, the feeling that is the targt that is being twisted and subverted by those with crafty plots, that to protect one’s home country is a good thing:-). Which is what makes the whole thing all the more sickening - b/c it is not merely greed or malice or gluttony or lust or some such that is being exploited, but rather the very GOOD desire to protect the innocents in this nation! i.e., those who are causing the spread of violence, whether they actively do the violence personally are not, they think they are actually doing GOOD (in the same way that you or I would use violence to protect a child from an animal’s attack - it actually can be a GOOD desire, at least when used solely in the appropriate context), however in reality they are causing grievous harm (by taking that good and doing it in an incorrect context).:-(
But that is the boundary up to which I feel like I understand. Beyond that, I am hella confused - especially what can be done about it, if anything at this point.:-(
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Absolutely. Though as we were discussing elsewhere in this post, humans can be evil, and selfish, and greedy, and people can literally help bring back slavery rather than force themselves to truly look at it, call it out as “bad”, and do something about it.
I somewhat understand the other side of the argument as well - like, if someone was old and just wanted to lie back and enjoy life for awhile (as we all will be someday, unless we die first), then who am I to take action or even desire to stop such a one from doing exactly that? On the other hand, someone who ACTUALLY does that causes little to no harm, whereas someone who does the OPPOSITE of that, e.g. by taking the action to vote - whether at a local school board, or on the state or especially federal level - that is when such a person’s rights end, the very moment that they begin to infringe upon the rights of others.
And like, if a child were to take a book out of the library and burn it, wouldn’t that child get in trouble? Maybe they would have to pay a fine, perhaps have disciplinary action taken against them such as being suspended, or if mitigating circumstances coexist then at least be sent to counseling? So how much more in trouble should an adult get into, if they likewise burn a book, or maybe… oh… let’s say that they lead a violent attempt to overthrow the democratically-elected government, shitting on the constitution and in the process, cause at least one police officer to be killed, brutally, with his screams of agony caught on video - how much should such a person be punished? (That is a trick question obviously, b/c it presumes that “justice” is what is dispensed at all.) Let us call this “individual 1”, but moving past that, how much responsibility would a new person hold, let’s call them “individual 2” if even AFTER all of that occurred, and I mean it is not secret but rather came to light and was publicly condemned by people in positions of authority everywhere (Democrats, Republicans, Independents, in the Executive, Legislative - both House and Senate - Judicial, as in Supreme Court, DOJ, federal lower courts, etc.), this person (individual 2) actually votes for individual 1?
When we step up to become leaders, then we take on additional responsibility beyond the common man. Voting is similarly a position of responsibility, in determining what will be done in the USA. As people vote - again, whether in small, local matters such as school board issues, or even more so at the larger levels that affect so many more people besides one’s own self + family + even neighbors - I would hope that they would remember the lessons of history, so that we do not have to repeat them. However, since that turns out not to be true, it seems that slavery will be coming back… it is here already in fact, in many areas in the south where there are more incarcerated black people than there ever were as slaves, and I am not entirely convinced that everyone in there is fully a “criminal” (maybe, but the systems that push for convictions based on quotas, in those for-profit institutions, lends credence to the thought that not ALL of them are that way…); plus in any case employment seems to be becoming more slave-like all the time, as the “American dream” of potentially owning a home and thereby becoming financially independent is increasingly being taken away from so very many. We are already re-walking those paths, that so long ago we turned away from in disgust, but like a dog returning to its vomit… we cannot seem to help ourselves. Finally, I want to add that many people, e.g. in WWI and WWII both, literally gave their lives to fight against fascism spreading in other countries - however, fast-forward to today and a goodly fraction of people in America are indicating that they want to fight on the side for fascism, rather than against it. We are moving backwards, and not slowly either, but practically at a run:-( (though precisely how fast nobody seems to know, and I for one do not trust any media source anymore, nor do I see that changing anytime soon, which in itself should be an extremely troubling warning sign of things yet to come).
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It seems difficult to put such people in jail for such “crimes” when for one thing, >40% of Americans think that it was a good thing, and for another thing, several congresspeople have stated that they were there and participated - some even lying about that - as a badge of honor and pride. Truth has gotten “twisted” so that it is not “True” anymore, in some people’s minds. Brainwashing techniques - e.g. repeating something ad nauseam so as to bypass the logical thought processes and instill it as “simply a fact” (even/especially when it is no such thing) - are extremely powerful, and I see efforts to use it on both sides of the political divide.
Speaking of, at one point in our history we were Americans first, members of a political party second, but this is no longer true, and nowadays someone’s political affiliation is the single greatest defining characteristic of them (that btw is not true - or at least might not be!? - but it seems to be many people’s perception in any case:-D).
And therefore, in order to stop the badness that whatever the “other side” will do, yes even murder captured on television apparently can be excused, and even celebrated for just how “peaceful” that protest was, and b/c it was so “peaceful”, perhaps it should be done again, around… oh, let’s say… the time of the next election maybe?
I guess we will see what happens.
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If you will allow me, I beg to differ: violence is the APPROPRIATE response, sometimes - rarely but not never. e.g., if you had a child who was being mauled by a dog, wouldn’t you go to their aid, and strike the dog to get it to go away? Of course you would - any sane, responsible person would.
These people are being brainwashed into thinking that by rising up, they are protecting the “true America”. Their heartfelt desire to protect things is GOOD. Their willingness to rise up and actually do something is GOOD. They are not complacent - they are literal heroes, in their own minds at least, but also called thus by those they respect, on the television, in the radio, in the “news” sources they choose to read, etc.
That is what is so twisted about the whole thing - it is not their badness or weaknesses that are being exploited (greed, lust, laziness, etc.), so much as their STRENGTHS, which are being re-directed towards an end that those who employ violence have not bothered to think through and understand. There IS a weakness involved, probably several (crowd mentality, giving up your agency to another rather than questioning everything - e.g. I Thessalonians 5:21 commands, though many preachers, especially evangelical Christianity, behind the pulpits in the Heartland of America do not teach that anymore… and instead are laying out the exact opposite message), but I do not think these people are themselves insane, so much as they are merely “normal”.
Which is not to say that the overall effect is not insanity, ofc.
And yeah I suspect the “Americans first” thing would be more the previous generation, like during WWI & II, when people had to stand together regardless of political affiliation, against an outside aggressor. Whereas today, that outside aggressor has patiently lain in wait for so long that the call (for violence) is now coming from inside our own house… even if its’ true origin derives from outside of it, e.g. Faux News dictating the talking points that Americans should follow, even if those came originally from Russia. Even if the latter country were to cease to exist literally today, the damage has already been done, and people in the USA now think how they wanted them to; but conversely even if the Republican party were to cease to exist today, those outside forces would continue to push for their desired ends… It is pressure from outside, and yet people today do not see it as that, and willingly go along with it.
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(I am giving up on kbin working)
We might agree more than we are letting on. I am doing a horrible job explaining my position though:-(. For one, I think we both agree that hypothetically there are SOMETIMES cases that only violence can solve, and then the real trick is to figure out when & where those cases are, yet they are EXCEEDINGLY rare and caution is best advised until people are ABSOLUTELY certain. And politically speaking, they almost never happen, but when they do they involve great deliberation and care, e.g. the USA entering into WWI and WWII in order to stop the spread of aggressive, violent nations at the expense of our allies; or like Ukranians defending their homeland from an imminent and ongoing invasion attempt.
But none of that describes what happened on January 6. I mean, how does defecating on a desk “protect the constitution”? Or smashing random stuff, rioting, looting, or crushing a police officer literally to death? Some of the people there, during the earlier peaceful phase, truly just wanted their voices to be heard, while others just were angry and took the excuse to do violence. But if someone truly wanted to “protect the constitution” as they claimed, then I happen to think that it might be worth, you know, reading it first!? Which takes real effort - maybe literal years of study in order to fully understand the context and all parts involved.
I suppose what I was trying to say then is that these outside agitators take a very real, honest, and good desire to do something - protect the homeland from badness - but twist it into conveying that you do NOT need to do the hard stuff like “study”, and instead you can simply show up at such and such an address at such and such a time, and your presence alone will be mostly enough. Bonus points for bringing guns, whether loaded or not they make a good “tough” image. Some very few people go a step further and do the actual violence, but it really helps to be able to blend into a crowd, i.e. the gullible people who have a conscience but weak follow-through (to actually understand any of what is going on) can be useful to those who desire to use them as meat-shields.
And to be clear I am neither advocating for the political violence, nor especially for the intentional gullibility that allows someone to be used as a meat shield by someone who actually does intend harm to innocents. I only meant that I understand that feeling at the very core, the feeling that is the targt that is being twisted and subverted by those with crafty plots, that to protect one’s home country is a good thing:-). Which is what makes the whole thing all the more sickening - b/c it is not merely greed or malice or gluttony or lust or some such that is being exploited, but rather the very GOOD desire to protect the innocents in this nation! i.e., those who are causing the spread of violence, whether they actively do the violence personally are not, they think they are actually doing GOOD (in the same way that you or I would use violence to protect a child from an animal’s attack - it actually can be a GOOD desire, at least when used solely in the appropriate context), however in reality they are causing grievous harm (by taking that good and doing it in an incorrect context).:-(
But that is the boundary up to which I feel like I understand. Beyond that, I am hella confused - especially what can be done about it, if anything at this point.:-(
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