The house and Senate are basically powerless now. The one thing that they had left was voting on the budget and now we’re seeing that that doesn’t even matter anymore.
I’m sorry, but people need to be much more concerned. I feel like we’ve normalized this stuff so much. If your 2016 self was seeing what is happening today; I think you’d be extremely shocked to hear yourself talking about “well, we just need to vote blue no matter who” as we literally have the state doing child abductions. Which is essentially what you’re saying.
Also, the fascist don’t need violence to say you are violent. They have been saying that protesters are violent the entire fucking time. I’m not talking about random mercenary acts. I’m talking about self defense against an unjust state attacking it’s citizens.
I’m sorry, but people need to be much more concerned. I feel like we’ve normalized this stuff so much.
The fuck are we supposed do? Make phone calls that get screened and ignored? Write letters that get immediately trashed? Empty our life savings into advertising campaigns? Start a guerrilla war against ICE?
People ARE concerned, more than ever. But the only peaceful option that we haven’t tried yet is voting, so people are gonna vote.
What an absolutely ignorant statement. Congress has lost no power, it’s just that it is marginally in control of the Republicans who want to cede power to Trump. Trump meanwhile is desperately trying to speed-run power consolidation because his administration is scared shitless that the Democrats will take Congress in 2026. That is why red states are panic gerrymandering and changing election rules, why they are working to get the Voting Rights Act overturned, and why they want military presence normalized in blue states.
I’m sorry, but people need to be much more concerned.
Who says I’m not concerned? Being concerned doesn’t mean acting in a drastic and foolish manner. Do you think the left is ready for a military style conflict with the fascists? That is where they are stronger than us, and that is where challenge makes them stronger still. We can beat them and gain ground consistently in every other arena, but you want to go right to the one place where they currently have an advantage?
I feel like we’ve normalized this stuff so much. If your 2016 self was seeing what is happening today; I think you’d be extremely shocked to hear yourself talking about “well, we just need to vote blue no matter who”
What the hell are you talking about? Yeah, I’ve always been an against third party strategies, but I’ve never advocated for “blue no matter who” as some kind of panacea, and I think that slogan in-particular is toxic as hell. Yes, vote for the lesser of two evils, but the lesser evil is still a demon to be overcome, and that should never be glossed over.
Also, the fascist don’t need violence to say you are violent.
No fucking kidding. But they do need violence to convince the courts that deploying the Texas national guard in Chicago is necessary (for instance). I totally get the impulse. I see the videos of these ignorant thugs and want to tear them apart myself, but I know that’s not the best way to help when considering the big picture. We need more underground networks hiding people. We need more volunteers providing legal support. We need more protesters delaying and tying up enforcement. We need more reporting and awareness campaigns. We need more progressives replacing establishment Democrats. There is plenty of work to be done. There is no need to engage in violent battles that will just lose us good people.
What an absolutely ignorant statement. Congress has lost no power
Thanks for letting me know you actually have no idea how we even got here in the first place.
They absolutely have lost power. You don’t lose power by directly having specific powers revoked. The legislative branch of government has become powerless because of the expansion of powers of the executive. It has rendered it all but useless.
That opening paragraph you wrote is so incredibly delusional. You think the Trump admin is desperate and scared of the Democrats winning? Hello? Have you been asleep since Obama left office?
Good luck mate. When you go to the polls in 2026 and they’re all guarded by ICE to “ensure election security” maybe then you’ll understand what I’m saying. But you’re kind of just proving my point; that people in this country are deluding themselves into thinking the system that brought about fascism will somehow also save them from it.
Go ahead. Save my comment and let me know come 2026.
Good luck mate. When you go to the polls in 2026 and they’re all guarded by ICE to “ensure election security” maybe then you’ll understand what I’m saying.
What you’re saying? WTF? I’m the one who brought up the fact that their entire intention is to have troops present for the election. And yeah, it’s exactly because they are afraid of the outcome that they want to do that, and it’s exactly because they want to do it that we shouldn’t make it easy for them. Fuck this really turned into a dumb dick measuring contest. Does any part of this screed support the notion that now is the time to roll out violence against ICE?
They are not afraid of the outcomes mate. They are controlling the outcomes. This is the disconnect we have. You think the democracy is still functioning in some way. It is not. And it has not ever functioned as a democracy for anyone but the rich. The only purpose electoral politics at this point is in delaying. Which I support.
You admit to all of the means in which those with power control the outcomes of elections. But somehow think that that can be overcome solely by working within the system that they control.
Fascist don’t suddenly go “aw, gee, we tried to rig the election with intimidation and gerrymandering. But we still lost. Golly gee, I guess we’ll just give up power”. No, they continue breaking the rules and lying.
You’re asking for a party in power that isn’t playing by the rules to give up power after somehow losing in their rigged electoral process? Again, delay within that system is still meaningful. But it’s just that. Delay.
No, this has never been a conversation about random acts of violence against ICE. I’ve literally said that several times over. It is about protecting and defending people that are being killed and disappeared right now. It’s a conversation about “remain nonviolent” people like yourselves that, I assume, do not actually go out in the streets (maybe you show up on “no kings” days).
It is about organizing and training groups to defend themselves. Not encouraging passively accepting the violence they experience. Which is why someone like you changed the conversation to electoral politics in the first place. You don’t experience the violence first hand and so are not forced to step outside of that system. You have hope that that system will protect you, or at the very least, not hurt you.
I think people like you instantly think someone is talking about a group of masked vigilantes with AKs as the only means of resistance. I suggest you read up on the tactics of community defense employed by groups like the Black Panther Party. Which is what I mentioned in my very first comment.
You sure love to type which is a shame because you don’t seem to want to say much. Almost none of this relates in any way to this conversation at all. I never claimed that electoral politics will save us, but it’s also not irrelevant. I never claimed that Trump “can be overcome solely by working within the system” and, in fact, I listed several suggestions that were explicitly outside the system. I never suggested asking “a party in power that isn’t playing by the rules to give up power”, but I’m not going to abandon the electoral battlefield either when public opinion is strongly in our favor and growing.
It’s a conversation about “remain nonviolent” people like yourselves that, I assume, do not actually go out in the streets (maybe you show up on “no kings” days).
Who the fuck are you to be saying this? To this point, there is fucking nobody out there mounting a violent resistance. I don’t have to assume that you aren’t acting on your stated convictions because it’s a damn fact. Meanwhile, there are a ton of us out there protesting regularly, for “No Kings” and otherwise. What a fucking hypocrite you are Mr Black Panther tough guy.
You see, if you came back and said. "Nope, I work with PSL or I’m working with DSA, or I’m working with <mutual aid> group ". Then id respect that.
But you didn’t. You got defensive towards me assuming your inaction outside of hoping for an outcome in electoral politics. Couldn’t list one thing you’re actually doing outside of ranting on Lemmy.
No one actively touching grass would be so offended by that. They’d point to the things they are helping with. It’s clear you’re not doing anything and it’s clear you’re trying to convince yourself more than me that that is the correct course of action.
For your information I’ve suffered from a persistent sinus migraine headache for the past 12 years that limits my ability to engage as much as I would like. Even so, I’ve been out to protest ICE facilities seven times. I also donate what I can, even though I can’t hold down a job. I’d love to be involved in organizing and canvassing, but since I barely sleep I hardly have the temperament for either. And no, I don’t get out and touch grass very much, since the light and pollin make everything worse.
Is that sufficient for you? Am I required to do more to earn your approval? Fuck you.
So, maybe don’t talk about shit you’re not capable of experiencing? Idk. I didn’t give you chronic migraines mate. Sounds like we finally hit the soft spot to recognize you have no clue what you’re even talking about.
Do you think that I’m talking about individual vigilante acts of violence? I guess I can’t really blame you. The education system in the US definitely reinforces it’s whitewashed MLK by pointing to “the other methods” just being random political assassinations or some anarchist kid throwing a molotov cocktail at a cop car. I’m guessing that’s what you have in your head? The US education system really only allows people to be taught a single method of resistance that is easily controlled by the state.
I mentioned the Black Panther Party specifically because of its community defense tactics as well as community support programs they enlisted.
If you’re actually interested in what I’m talking about then you can go have a read about their methods of community defense. But the fact that you’re asking for an example of individual resistance from me tells me you don’t actually know what I’m talking about.
The organizations I work with personally are working to build these types of communities. Our primary defensive tactics currently are in non lethal forms directed at keeping protesters safe from the situations that lead to violence in the first place. We are not, however, a currently “invaded” city. And are learning tactics from our organization in cities that have been heavily occupied.
And yes. We are “antifa” if that’s what fits your definition. Though that literally just means any organization that wants to protect their community at this point. Some police departments at this point could be labeled “antifa” for limiting ICE activity in their city. Though most are not.
This isn’t about going out and murking random state actors. This is about community defense and safety in a time in which communities are being attacked. And, yes, physical resistance and group intimidation ARE tactics to be used in that defense.
We need more people though. We cannot be effective if every liberal at a protest stands idle while a random comrade is brutalized and taken by ICE. ICE are weak scared little boys that run back to their vans if enough people intimidate them. They are not prepared for or expect to deal with anything but one person they pick out at a time. Physical resistance has been effective in protecting people.
I agree. Showing up to show you support for those out here that still don’t accept defeat as an answer and fight the good fight for the few that read this far.
I’m asking for suggestions about what I can do, because it feels like there are no good options. Thanks for the condescension, though. It’s really effective. /s
Well, I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your initial comment. Maybe you shouldn’t phrase your comments to be condescending. I took it as “yeah, well, what are YOU doing?”
Maybe that’s my fault though. If so I apologize.
If you are genuinely asking. Find PSL in your area. Even if they aren’t actively working on the things I discussed the people in PSL will know which groups are. Basically, it’s a starting point to get you in with the type of people that are helping community outreach. This can be as low risk or as high risk as you are comfortable with.
The house and Senate are basically powerless now. The one thing that they had left was voting on the budget and now we’re seeing that that doesn’t even matter anymore.
I’m sorry, but people need to be much more concerned. I feel like we’ve normalized this stuff so much. If your 2016 self was seeing what is happening today; I think you’d be extremely shocked to hear yourself talking about “well, we just need to vote blue no matter who” as we literally have the state doing child abductions. Which is essentially what you’re saying.
Also, the fascist don’t need violence to say you are violent. They have been saying that protesters are violent the entire fucking time. I’m not talking about random mercenary acts. I’m talking about self defense against an unjust state attacking it’s citizens.
The fuck are we supposed do? Make phone calls that get screened and ignored? Write letters that get immediately trashed? Empty our life savings into advertising campaigns? Start a guerrilla war against ICE?
People ARE concerned, more than ever. But the only peaceful option that we haven’t tried yet is voting, so people are gonna vote.
Look for PSL in your area. Most general starting point I can give you without knowing where you live. I feel your frustration mate.
What an absolutely ignorant statement. Congress has lost no power, it’s just that it is marginally in control of the Republicans who want to cede power to Trump. Trump meanwhile is desperately trying to speed-run power consolidation because his administration is scared shitless that the Democrats will take Congress in 2026. That is why red states are panic gerrymandering and changing election rules, why they are working to get the Voting Rights Act overturned, and why they want military presence normalized in blue states.
Who says I’m not concerned? Being concerned doesn’t mean acting in a drastic and foolish manner. Do you think the left is ready for a military style conflict with the fascists? That is where they are stronger than us, and that is where challenge makes them stronger still. We can beat them and gain ground consistently in every other arena, but you want to go right to the one place where they currently have an advantage?
What the hell are you talking about? Yeah, I’ve always been an against third party strategies, but I’ve never advocated for “blue no matter who” as some kind of panacea, and I think that slogan in-particular is toxic as hell. Yes, vote for the lesser of two evils, but the lesser evil is still a demon to be overcome, and that should never be glossed over.
No fucking kidding. But they do need violence to convince the courts that deploying the Texas national guard in Chicago is necessary (for instance). I totally get the impulse. I see the videos of these ignorant thugs and want to tear them apart myself, but I know that’s not the best way to help when considering the big picture. We need more underground networks hiding people. We need more volunteers providing legal support. We need more protesters delaying and tying up enforcement. We need more reporting and awareness campaigns. We need more progressives replacing establishment Democrats. There is plenty of work to be done. There is no need to engage in violent battles that will just lose us good people.
Thanks for letting me know you actually have no idea how we even got here in the first place.
They absolutely have lost power. You don’t lose power by directly having specific powers revoked. The legislative branch of government has become powerless because of the expansion of powers of the executive. It has rendered it all but useless.
That opening paragraph you wrote is so incredibly delusional. You think the Trump admin is desperate and scared of the Democrats winning? Hello? Have you been asleep since Obama left office?
Good luck mate. When you go to the polls in 2026 and they’re all guarded by ICE to “ensure election security” maybe then you’ll understand what I’m saying. But you’re kind of just proving my point; that people in this country are deluding themselves into thinking the system that brought about fascism will somehow also save them from it.
Go ahead. Save my comment and let me know come 2026.
What you’re saying? WTF? I’m the one who brought up the fact that their entire intention is to have troops present for the election. And yeah, it’s exactly because they are afraid of the outcome that they want to do that, and it’s exactly because they want to do it that we shouldn’t make it easy for them. Fuck this really turned into a dumb dick measuring contest. Does any part of this screed support the notion that now is the time to roll out violence against ICE?
They are not afraid of the outcomes mate. They are controlling the outcomes. This is the disconnect we have. You think the democracy is still functioning in some way. It is not. And it has not ever functioned as a democracy for anyone but the rich. The only purpose electoral politics at this point is in delaying. Which I support.
You admit to all of the means in which those with power control the outcomes of elections. But somehow think that that can be overcome solely by working within the system that they control.
Fascist don’t suddenly go “aw, gee, we tried to rig the election with intimidation and gerrymandering. But we still lost. Golly gee, I guess we’ll just give up power”. No, they continue breaking the rules and lying.
You’re asking for a party in power that isn’t playing by the rules to give up power after somehow losing in their rigged electoral process? Again, delay within that system is still meaningful. But it’s just that. Delay.
No, this has never been a conversation about random acts of violence against ICE. I’ve literally said that several times over. It is about protecting and defending people that are being killed and disappeared right now. It’s a conversation about “remain nonviolent” people like yourselves that, I assume, do not actually go out in the streets (maybe you show up on “no kings” days).
It is about organizing and training groups to defend themselves. Not encouraging passively accepting the violence they experience. Which is why someone like you changed the conversation to electoral politics in the first place. You don’t experience the violence first hand and so are not forced to step outside of that system. You have hope that that system will protect you, or at the very least, not hurt you.
I think people like you instantly think someone is talking about a group of masked vigilantes with AKs as the only means of resistance. I suggest you read up on the tactics of community defense employed by groups like the Black Panther Party. Which is what I mentioned in my very first comment.
You sure love to type which is a shame because you don’t seem to want to say much. Almost none of this relates in any way to this conversation at all. I never claimed that electoral politics will save us, but it’s also not irrelevant. I never claimed that Trump “can be overcome solely by working within the system” and, in fact, I listed several suggestions that were explicitly outside the system. I never suggested asking “a party in power that isn’t playing by the rules to give up power”, but I’m not going to abandon the electoral battlefield either when public opinion is strongly in our favor and growing.
Who the fuck are you to be saying this? To this point, there is fucking nobody out there mounting a violent resistance. I don’t have to assume that you aren’t acting on your stated convictions because it’s a damn fact. Meanwhile, there are a ton of us out there protesting regularly, for “No Kings” and otherwise. What a fucking hypocrite you are Mr Black Panther tough guy.
You see, if you came back and said. "Nope, I work with PSL or I’m working with DSA, or I’m working with <mutual aid> group ". Then id respect that.
But you didn’t. You got defensive towards me assuming your inaction outside of hoping for an outcome in electoral politics. Couldn’t list one thing you’re actually doing outside of ranting on Lemmy.
No one actively touching grass would be so offended by that. They’d point to the things they are helping with. It’s clear you’re not doing anything and it’s clear you’re trying to convince yourself more than me that that is the correct course of action.
For your information I’ve suffered from a persistent sinus migraine headache for the past 12 years that limits my ability to engage as much as I would like. Even so, I’ve been out to protest ICE facilities seven times. I also donate what I can, even though I can’t hold down a job. I’d love to be involved in organizing and canvassing, but since I barely sleep I hardly have the temperament for either. And no, I don’t get out and touch grass very much, since the light and pollin make everything worse.
Is that sufficient for you? Am I required to do more to earn your approval? Fuck you.
So, maybe don’t talk about shit you’re not capable of experiencing? Idk. I didn’t give you chronic migraines mate. Sounds like we finally hit the soft spot to recognize you have no clue what you’re even talking about.
Fuck me? Get in line.
Can you share with us what tactics you are personally employing that are proving effective?
Do you think that I’m talking about individual vigilante acts of violence? I guess I can’t really blame you. The education system in the US definitely reinforces it’s whitewashed MLK by pointing to “the other methods” just being random political assassinations or some anarchist kid throwing a molotov cocktail at a cop car. I’m guessing that’s what you have in your head? The US education system really only allows people to be taught a single method of resistance that is easily controlled by the state.
I mentioned the Black Panther Party specifically because of its community defense tactics as well as community support programs they enlisted.
If you’re actually interested in what I’m talking about then you can go have a read about their methods of community defense. But the fact that you’re asking for an example of individual resistance from me tells me you don’t actually know what I’m talking about.
The organizations I work with personally are working to build these types of communities. Our primary defensive tactics currently are in non lethal forms directed at keeping protesters safe from the situations that lead to violence in the first place. We are not, however, a currently “invaded” city. And are learning tactics from our organization in cities that have been heavily occupied.
And yes. We are “antifa” if that’s what fits your definition. Though that literally just means any organization that wants to protect their community at this point. Some police departments at this point could be labeled “antifa” for limiting ICE activity in their city. Though most are not.
This isn’t about going out and murking random state actors. This is about community defense and safety in a time in which communities are being attacked. And, yes, physical resistance and group intimidation ARE tactics to be used in that defense.
We need more people though. We cannot be effective if every liberal at a protest stands idle while a random comrade is brutalized and taken by ICE. ICE are weak scared little boys that run back to their vans if enough people intimidate them. They are not prepared for or expect to deal with anything but one person they pick out at a time. Physical resistance has been effective in protecting people.
I agree. Showing up to show you support for those out here that still don’t accept defeat as an answer and fight the good fight for the few that read this far.
I’m asking for suggestions about what I can do, because it feels like there are no good options. Thanks for the condescension, though. It’s really effective. /s
Well, I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your initial comment. Maybe you shouldn’t phrase your comments to be condescending. I took it as “yeah, well, what are YOU doing?”
Maybe that’s my fault though. If so I apologize.
If you are genuinely asking. Find PSL in your area. Even if they aren’t actively working on the things I discussed the people in PSL will know which groups are. Basically, it’s a starting point to get you in with the type of people that are helping community outreach. This can be as low risk or as high risk as you are comfortable with.