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Now explain this to EU based corporations, which in my opinion needs to be the focus on making the change. They drive the economy. All major assets in software income are being routed to American firms through their licenses.
Nice, DINUM is doing a lot so great to see go beyond with supra national collaboration!
I’m using NextCloud (Germany and international open source community) hosted on Webo (Slovenia) with data centers in Germany and Helsinki (so I bet on Hetzner). I’m happy with it but I’ll keep on eye on https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs
I’d be curious, they use Minio which puts S3 first. Does it mean Docs (the official instance) is relying on AWS?
If so IMHO that’s not a great default EU sovereignty.
I would assume (without having looked at the codebase) that if they use minio they are, by default, not reliant on AWS.
Minio is its own S3 implementation which can be self-hosted.
S3, being an AWS protocol originally has
AWSenvironment variables all over the place but that does not necessarily mean a reliance on the service. Rather, they rely on the protocol and you bring your own S3 endpoint I would assume. be that minio, hetzner or what have you.Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense, closing the issue then.
FWIW if others are curious https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs/issues/755 opened an issue
I thought that MinIO is a Open-Source S3 implementation, which you can just install on your own system. S3 is a “protocol” here IIUC.
Is your complaint that they are using the S3 protocol, because it was invented and is controlled by AWS?
Or that some services might use it without MinIO, directly on AWS?
Seems I misunderstood, if it’s solely the branding (of that implementation) then it’s fine. I thought they relied on AWS itself.
Calligra and LibreOffice already exist though. I am not against this in principle but couldn’t they have invested in an existing FOSS project?
While both of those are great software. Unless I’m not aware of something they aren’t cloud/network based office suites like Google docs and office 365.
It seems this is an alternative to office software where you can work simultaneously and share documents in the same cloud/network.
I don’t think there is an alternative to office 365 and Google docs at this point that is open source. So this seems like a great project and I’ll definitely be considering it for our company.
What about Collabora Online? It integrates nicely into Nextcloud, but I am not sure about pricing for business use.
https://www.collaboraonline.com/collabora-online/
Guide for self hosting: https://collabora-online-for-nextcloud.readthedocs.io/en/latest/install/
Thanks I’ll definitely check that out. I’ve seen some posts about it working on Synology Nas devices so that’s very interesting.
If you ever diverge away from proprietary Synology solution, NextCloud has 100% integration with Collabora too.
There’s onlyoffice for cloud based office
OnlyOffice has a lot of ties with Russia/CIS. I’d personally avoid it on that basis.
Do you have Amy sources on that
OnlyOffice has a lot of ties with Russia/CIS. I’d personally avoid it on that basis.
Onlyoffice seems a little slack on the security and updates. I saw the warnings in the desktop package, have they made sure the online offerings are secure?
what do you mean?
If there are issues like this, sounds like a good goal for a country that wants to divest from US tech companies.
There is nextcloud and others you can self host at least.
Wait LibreOffice has a cloud?
Note: The LibreOffice Online repository at TDF is temporarily frozen. Updates on this will be published on our blog and on our website.
yeah
A lot of government programs don’t really make sense and are there just to put a name on a CV sadly. Collabora Online does exactly that and is primary licensed under Mozilla Public License.
They could have easily expanded Collabora. But you know, can’t stamp your name on it.
To be fair, though a new project might not be as efficient as improving another, projects learn off each other, and sometimes it’s good to have developmental ‘competition’, and variety.
Can either of those do collaborative editing? I usually think of that feature when I think of Google Docs
Really cool. I tried to sign up but you have to be part of an officially recognized organization in France and input their registration number as part of the process.
I definitely don’t want the government attached to my personal files, in any country.
Yeah I thought this was open to the general public, I didn’t realize that it was not
I’m sure it will be. This is a government funded thing in the early stages so I can see how they would set it up that way.
Really glad to see the EU adopt more open source software as a way to combat the centralized control some of the american software companies have over the space.
As someone in and from the US, good. Private companies are far to prevalent in public institutions all over the world. Something as basic and fundamental as word processing should not be controlled by a small select few huge international companies.
We should actually use an opensource, decentralized and private alternative instead of relying on another centralized service
See Fileverse for example: https://fileverse.io/
Why distributed? Having your data tied to a blockchain seems unnecessarily complicated, and it essentially puts your data at risk if the bulk of the community moves to the next hot thing.
We really need to decouple storage from the apps themselves. Whether you use distributed storage, local storage, or something commercially backed like S3 should be a choice separate from the app you use to view and edit your data.
I self-host Collabora (online version of LibreOffice; OnlyOffice is another option), and my data lives on my NAS, but it could just as easily live on S3 or some distributed data store.
I self-host Collabora (online version of LibreOffice; OnlyOffice is another option), and my data lives on my NAS, but it could just as easily live on S3 or some distributed data store.
Oh this is interesting. Any pitfalls you could talk about before I go popping this up myself?
It’s pretty easy if you use NextCloud with the AIO image, but if you’re doing anything fancier than that, strap in because there aren’t many decent tutorials.
strap in because there aren’t many decent tutorials
Yeah I’ve noticed. It was rough figuring out how to set up a reverse proxy with SSL too. Self-hosting is a process.
Even nextcloud-not-AIO offers a way to install the server of office suites through the settings of the admin account all in the web GUI. I’ve chosen onlyoffice but it could have been nextcloud docs or collabora (and soon maybe, this thing)
(Not op) Its distrubuted so you don’t lose your content if something happens to one location.
Just browsing the landing page, it looks like the blockchain part offers proof of ownership and strict access controls without having to use a centralized service, which is needed in some form if it’s distrubuted.
I imagine but haven’t seen that it might handle payments for having things be distrubuted as well, which would have meant having to include credit cards otherwise which would complicate things like micro payments to any given person hosting your content.
Edit: also this is the kind of thing that should use an S3 compatible API so you don’t get locked in as you said. It’d let you move the data between providers effortlessly.
Its distrubuted so you don’t lose your content if something happens to one location.
Right, but you’ll lose your content if enough people lose interest in the network. That’s absolutely a thing in the crypto world where things move fast. Relying on the network effect to secure your data sounds… sketchy.
which is needed in some form if it’s distrubuted
Sure, and the easiest way to do that is w/ public key cryptography, sign your encrypted stuff and you can always prove ownership. A blockchain gives you that, but it’s hardly necessary to have consensus around that.
include credit cards
It probably uses some cryptocurrency. Lots of cryptocurrencies work well for micropayments (e.g. LiteCoin, Monero, or even Bitcoin w/ the lightning network).
I just don’t see the need for a blockchain here. Bittorrent has been doing content-based addressing for ages, and it doesn’t need a blockchain, you just ask for the data at a given hash and you get it. Or you can use IPFS. If everything is properly encrypted, you’re good to go!
What the blockchain does offer is a way to pay for storage. So the more you pay, the more likely your data is to still be there after some time as people leave the network and nodes drop and whatnot. All in all though, it seems really risky to put anything important on it, and you might as well just pay for a storage provider from a legal entity that you can sue if things go poorly (and maybe two, so you’re not screwed if goes bankrupt or whatever).
I was looking at it more, and it does use IPFS for the data storage (files and the collaboration chats etc), as well as Arweave, which I’d never heard of until today.
I agree but having two major countries using this might be a good move for more efforts from nations. I know Canada still uses all M$FT platforms and recently moved to EXO.
Purpose built projects like this would be easy for public servants to adopt and adapt their workflow.
I wish we did with more open source and local software. My school in Canada has some agreement with Microsoft so we have to use everything from them.
The school mail used for all accounts is hosted by outlook
The databases are all azure
The 2fa app on our phone to boot the school computer has to be Microsoft (even gave me shit because I am root…)
Teams
We had a whole course for a year on how to use word.It’s a public school. Obviously with this most students will move to the USA for higher pay, we are literally subsidizing the USA education.
The school board here uses Google, and Microsoft… I emailed their board and the province’s privacy commissionaire asking why. I grew up with an agenda, and that shit worked better than using a website and email for JK/SK aged kids.
Checked out the site on mobile, and it was unresponsive to any of my clicks.
Yeah agreed - anything not FOSS is just setting up another bad situation waiting to happen
It says in one of the first paragraphs, that its open-source
Ah, I missed that detall! https://github.com/suitenumerique/docs
Well this software is more intended for administrative staff working for the government, so I don’t think that decentralisation is their goal here.
What do folks think of cryptpad?
Thinking ofmore like planning on switching from proton after CEO bullshitI personally really like Cryptpad. I haven’t heard of Fileverse, so I’ll check it out. Cryptpad is the closest thing I’ve found to a drop-in Google Suite replacement.
I’ll look into that one too, I didn’t know about it
Which bullshit are you talking about? I might have missed it and my search didn’t bring much on it
edit: I think i found it: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/40123727/17360792
Short version to save others a click: Proton’s CEO tweeted an endorsement of Trump’s FTC pick, going on to praise how apparently the Republicans are now the party for the “little guys” and crediting the ongoing antitrust proceedings to Trump’s first term.
Just checked the part about self-hosting. While it’s probably possible to handle things with a less heavy approach, their only “easy to use” example right now is to have a full-blown kubernetes cluster at hand or run locally in the source directory. That’s a bit much.
In the README there’s also instructions for Docker Compose, although it’s quite the compose file, with SIXTEEN containers defined. Not something I’d want to self-host.
it seems to contains development containers and external services containers. So the compose file is more for local dev it seems
What i do find weird is the choice for Django for the backend. Python is incredibly slow, and django rest framework is even worse.
Honestly, k8s is super easy and very lightweight to run locally if you know the rights tools. There are a few good options but I prefer k3d. I can install Docker/k3d and also build a local cluster running in maybe 2 minutes. It’s excellent for local dev. Even good for production in some niche scenarios
I don’t like the approach of piling more things on top of even more things to achieve the same goal as the base, frankly speaking. A “local” kubernetes cluster serve no purpose other than incredible complexity for little to no gain over a mere docker-compose. And a small cluster would work equally well with docker swarm.
A service, even made of multiple parts, should always be described that way. It’s easy to move “up” the stack of complexity, if you so desire. Having “have a k8s cluster with helm” working as the base requirement sounds insane to me.
Honestly, a lot of the time I don’t understand why a lot of businesses use k8s.
At my company especially, we know almost exactly what our traffic will look like from 9am-5pm. We don’t really need flexible scaling, yet we still use it because the technology is hyped. Similar to cloud, we certainly don’t need to be spending as much as we do, but since everyone else is on or migrating to the cloud, we are as well.
The “problem” with k8s is not that it’s abstract-y (it’s not inherently any more abstract than docker), it’s that it’s very complex and enterprise-y.
The need for such a complex orchestration layer is not necessarily immediately obvious, until you’ve worked on a complex infra setup that wasn’t deployed with kubernetes. Believe me when you’ve seen the depths of hell that are hundreds of separately configured customer setups using thousands of lines of ansible playbooks, all using ad-hoc systems for creating containers/VMs, with even more ad-hoc and hacked together development and staging environments, suddenly k8s starts looking very appetizing. Instead of an abominable spaghetti of bash scripts, playbooks, and random documentation, one common (albeit complex) set of tools understood by every professional which manages your application deployment & configuration, redundancy, software upgrades, firewall configs, etc.
A small self-hosted production kubernetes cluster doesn’t have to be hard to operate or significantly more expensive than bare-metal; you can buy 3U of rack space, plop in 3 semi-large servers (think 128 GB plus a few TB of SSD RAID), install rancher and longhorn, and now you’ve got a prod cluster large enough for nearly every workload such that if you ever need to upgrade that means you have so many customers that hiring a k8s administrator will be a no-brainer.
Or you can buy minutes from AWS because CapEx is the absolute devil and instead you pay several times as much in OpEx to make it someone else’s problem. But if you’re doing that then you’re not comparing against “installing things the old-fashioned way”.
Thanks for the response!
I personally haven’t rolled a k8s or k3s cluster, so it’s always felt a bit abstract to me. I probably should though, to demystify it to myself in my work environment.
Complex is definitely what I have noticed when I see my devops team PR into the ingress directories.
I guess the abstract issue I see, that ties in to the meme i shared above, is that sometimes around deploys where we get blips of 503/4’s and we appear to be unable to track them down. Is it the load balancer? Ingress? Kong? The fact that there is so many layers make infra issues rough to debug
I mean yeah it’s all very complex for sure. Managing a cluster is very involved and k8s administration is typically a completely separate role from dev/devops. I am comfortable with the idea and I still run my selfhosted setup on docker because it’s easier and I have no personal use for multi-node setups.
However when you get down to it pretty much everything in k8s solves a real problem that in a “traditional” infra would require lots of ad-hoc bullshit. The ingress system of k8s is, at a high level, a standardized recreation of the typical “haproxy+nginx+ad-hoc provisioning” setup you’d find in a “classical” private cloud deployment. TLS in, send to nginx, nginx chooses a relevant healthy back-end and reverse proxies the request. K8s doesn’t really do anything crazy complex, the complexity is just inherent to having a many-to-many mapping of HTTP requests while optionally supporting multi-zone setups with local affinity and lifecycle management/awareness.
But unlike with a traditional deployment there’s not a greybeard guru in the back who deployed it all and knows the ins-and-outs so it’s quite common that the complexity is not understood and underappreciated by the “admins”. That complexity is a blessing when you need to leverage it but a curse when you lack the expertise to understand what is happening holistically.
Kind of like a linux distro… It’s amazing when it works but when libpam throws an error and you don’t even know what that library is or does, well you’re in for a fun evening.
Kubernetes is not really meant primarily for scaling. Even kubernetes clusters require autoscaling groups on nodes to support it, for example, or horizontal pod autoscalers, but they are minor features.
The benefits are pooling computing resources and creating effectively a private cloud. Easy replication of applications in case of hardware failure. Single language to deploy applications, network controls, etc.
Yea I’m not a fan of helm either. In fact, I avoid charts when possible. But kustomize is great.
I feel the same way about docker compose. If it wasn’t already obvious, I’m biased in favor of k8s. I like and prefer that interface. But that’s just preference. If you like docker compose, great!
There’s one point where I do disagree however. There are scenarios where a local k8s cluster has a good and clear purpose. If your production environment runs on k8s, then it’s best to mirror that locally as much as possible. In fact, there are many apps that even require a k8s api to run. Plus, being able to destroy and rebuild your entire k8s cluster in 30s is wonderful for local testing.
Edit: typos
I won’t argue with the ups and downs of each technos, but I recently looked into docker swarms and it was all I expected kubernetes to be, without the hassle. And I could also get a full cluster with services restored from scratch in 30s. But I am obviously biased towards it, too :)
Did not realize swarm was still a thing, not trying to be offensive here.
My best find was using traefik as a reverse proxy in docker (compose). It is easily configurable through container labels and pulls resource definitions straight from docker. It is awesome!
k8s is overkill for a lot of homelabs. Using docker compose is a fraction of that complexity
Yes if single node, kinda if 2-3 nodes, no for anything above that IMHO.
There are many reasons to use k8s. Managing multiple nodes is one good one. But more importantly, k8s gives you an api-driven runtime environment. It’s really not comparable to docker compose.
Seconding k3d (and, by extension, k3s). If you’re in a market for sth suitable for more upstream-compliant clustering solution (k3s uses SQLite instead of etcd, iirc), RKE2 is also a great choice
Please develop this self hosted version using sandstorm
It makes hosting a breeze with one click installation
What does this do over what the collabora tools in Nextcloud do?
NGL I keep forgetting NextCloud has collaboration tools.
We already have kDrive you get 1TB storage for only 2€ a month, it’s based in Switzerland
Where are you getting that pricing?
https://www.infomaniak.com/en/ksuite/myksuite
1.90€ per month for 1TB
Is there an open source implementation of kDrive as well?
It is already open-source. All of the source code is on their github and, for docs, they use an implementation of onlyoffice very similar to the one in Nextcloud
Oh that is good to know then. At a cursory glance I only saw the clients’ software available as github repositories and the German and French wikipedia pages called it a proprietary service.
Surprised they didn’t go with cryptpad - aren’t they already French?
Cryptpad is French, but they are using OnlyOffice, which is Russian.
Fuck :( Didn’t know that… I got convinced by the company being supposedly Latvian.
It is Latvian. It’s also Russian. It’s also Singaporean. It just depends on who you ask and how much you want to look into it.
But yeah, that’s a large part of why I use Collabora instead of OnlyOffice, it’s just a lot less sketchy.
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
Thats great
What was wrong with libre?
Pretty sure Libre only does local document collaboration, having it online is helpful for teams far from each other or who simply don’t have the infrastructure for their own central server of this kind.
Well this has been running in our Nextcloud and works pretty well collaboratively :) https://github.com/CollaboraOnline/online not sure how it scales, but definitely an alternative that can be built on
Thanks for this; I may use it to build out my NextCloud server. I’ve already used it to replace shared calendars and contacts.
If you’re using Nextcloud All In One then it’s easy to enable it in the AIO settings.
If you’re not, I suggest looking into it. It’s the new officially recommended way of installing and it’s been great.
Nextcloud has an export/import data function but at the time I did it I only had a few GB of data so not sure how well it scales.
The web browser is the future, especially for a crappy document editor and spread sheet.
Then just use Word online.
Not FOSS and probably not privacy friendly
Pretty good project, but is it the future to have mainly web apps?
Bro has been sleeping under a rock for the past 10 years.
It’s definitely been the direction of travel for the last several years. Not because the products are better, but because it’s easier to develop for just the browser than for Mac, Windows, and Linux.
it’s easier to develop for just the browser than for Mac, Windows, and Linux.
They also work on android and IOS. You are also not dependent on the different toolkits. Also it is so much more performant.
I’ve never found them to be more performant, and i can’t understand the logic of why a programme running inside another programme would be more performant except in comparison to unoptimised alternatives.
I’ve never used a web app that i thought was better than a local app. But i definitely understand why developers prefer them.
They also work on android and IOS.
I can imagine it’ll be a 160 MB app that loads the website in a webview, like it usually is
For offline editing there’s already LibreOffice
LibreOffice does everything I need it to and there’s no need for anything else.
Doesn’t do collaborative online editing and that seems what this is about. But there are foss alternatives already, collabora/nextcloud, cryptpad etc.
Well yeah, that’s why my parent comment said its good for offline editing. I don’t need collaborative online editing.
A bit of both I guess
Web apps have the advantage of not requiring admin permission and being accessible from pretty much everywhere, and they are often less intensive I believe
And I guess cloud storage of documents makes it even better
I guess I don’t mind if I can self host the server. If I can’t I have no interest in touching it.
For sure! self hosting is the way
True: self hosting is beneficial, Foss office suite is great to empower us, users… etc.
The point of the software presented isn’t aimed at regular computer users that would enjoy a bit of independence, it looks more like something aimed at the enterprise administrative level that people may stumble upon while searching for a document (who needs versioning apart from filename extensions if you alone work on the documents).See it as: you may find , download and use updated packaged software on github but in reality it’s really a tool aimed at devs before being a software repository for end users.
I see this as software mainly for the French or German state administration being made public for others to enrich, integrate… Like Olvid is a matrix based E2E encrypted, real authenticated identity based messenger made available to the public once the French government financed it’s development for it’s own use.
no office software requires admin eighter unless you want to install it for all users
it’s often a pain to install in computers that don’t have it by default, like school computers or similar, but alright, didn’t know it!
+some people don’t like installing stuff
+you can’t collaborate with other people on the default LibreOffice I iirc
A good web app is awesome!
But the big ones usually wants to have a native app so that they can scan your whole computer and so on. This is good news.
which is fine if you deny network connections for it with a per-process firewall. but with a webapp you can never be sure that they won’t snatch your documents.
Depends, if it is open source then you just host it yourself for your organisation.
Dont know why we need another foss office but im certainly not going to complain.
