Ah, this old canard in which radical leftism didn’t do anything wrong, no revolutions lead to dictatorships and centrally planned economies were sabotaged by the capitalist illuminati. God forbid we critique leftist ideologies, anyone who does that is worse than a nazi.
This comic will be a poor fit when people don’t conversationally use horseshoe theory to compare the barely-existent US left (who support improvements that would help all demographics but which are somehow considered radical) to the aggressively hateful US right (who is now pretty sure they will get to see their favorite targets hauled away and deported or imprisoned depending on whether you mean brown people or queer folk).
Also horseshoe theory is the creation of a journalist and no studies support the claim.
Tuol Sleng was actually just a nice leftist resort.
Left or right doesn’t matter… Authoritarianism is the enemy.
I blame the two party system in the US. It squishes all ideologies into a simple binary choice, and this bleeds into the political discourse even outside the US and especially online.
In my country we have a communist party which falls squarely in the conservative camp, wanting to return to the “good old days” before the revolution. It also has more support in the rural areas whereas cities trend more towards economic right.
Naturally a planned economy under-performs an evolutionary economy.
The first time. What about the planned economy that learns from the previous one’s mistakes? Or the one after that?
What about the planned economy that learns from the previous one’s mistakes? Or the one after that?
Based on all the past experiments, they all fail.
Every person and company has complex needs and desires and ultimately, it’s impossible for a central authority to fully anticipate and manage that over the size of a nation, because the quantity of parameters and unknown is almost infinite. Heck I don’t even know what I’ll want to eat for dinner!
Without even diving into the issue of concentrating so much power into a single hand. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I dunno, human history is a story of conscious design and planning outperforming evolutionary systems.
China and Vietnam are doing pretty well with their mixed economies. Seems like they’ve harnessed the positive effects of evolutionary economies without giving up conscious control to a stock market that only makes decisions via short-term profits.
Vietnam is still developing so there is a lot of room for growth, but China already has a mountain of issues bubbling under the surface.
How well do you think your comment will age in 3 to 5 years?
Pretty well. I’m not arguing China is perfect or anything, but they are at least capable of addressing a problem and moving on to the next one. Like, 50 years ago they were having trouble feeding people. Today, they’re everyone’s largest trading partner. That comes with it’s own set of issues, but I think they have the capacity to work through it.
50 years ago, the United States was arguing about abortion and inflation. When I was in elementary school, it was with talk of school shootings on the news. Today, we’re still arguing about abortion and inflation. Now I’m in the workforce and several generations have grown up with school shootings on the news. If China has issues “bubbling under the surface”, then our issues have become gangrenous.
You’re being purposely dishonest when you argue that the issues of the US 50 years ago are the same as they are today. Inflation isn’t something that goes away. It’s a necessity in for a growing economy. Abortion is politically still here but views on sexuality and women are not the same as it was 50 years ago.
Our issues are bad and still probably get worse before they get better but I still would not trade places with China. As I said it’s easier when you are still a developing nation but their issues are not something you’d envy.
They have a real estate problem that can end their economy, a gender disparity due to their 1 child policy that will leave generations of men without any hopes of finding a partner, and they still get to deal with the same education inflation problem that exists everywhere: all children spending their whole lives studying to get into the few good universities but without that good job waiting for them.
It still does poorly because we are bad at predicting the future
Horseshoe theory is truly one of my worst enemies, a thought terminating cliche that is zesty enough to feel like a revelation so every midwit loves to trot it out to feel superior. “Opposite things have similarities, therefore, opposite things tend toward the same”
At no point have I ever seen anyone in a political science class mention horseshoe theory except in the process of explaining that it isn’t a scientific concept that has validity and was the creation of a journalist. There is no evidence that backs the horseshoe theory. A former Marxist is not going to have much in common with theocrats, monarchists, or fascists and is unlikely to move from one to the other.
TL;DR: horseshoe theory isn’t taught in poli sci because its bullshit.
If you squint enough, you’re gonna see a normal distribution.
It’s funny because Lemmygrad/Hexbear are indistinguishable from Gab.ai, and it’s a bunch of liberals on the center who think “free healthcare” is somehow not centrist
Edit; honestly, all you need to do is look at the comments in this thread saying oppression isn’t always bad. Lemmy.world never fails to amuse
First day provided tons of evidence from the lord god being disrespected and completely shat on by trump to literal nazi salutes. That have endless meme potential and can be spread around for completely free and low effort in order to swing public opinion. I am sure returning to some obscure tibetian basket weaving forum with userbase of five and talking about genociding everyone not like you while the right media machine is working overtime is going to get the public to change their mind.
If it were that trivial why was public opinion not swayed earlier? The fact is at least 30-40% actually want Hitler. The rest are OK with Hitler if he actually cuts their taxes or makes them prosperous. If he built gas chambers and broadcast the mass murder of brown folks he would still have at least 30% support. We in the US are factually just garbage people.
The people saying oppression isn’t always bad, what kind of examples or situations do they give? Pretty curious because I can’t really think of any examples where oppression would be good.
To be fair, those sentiments are also espoused on ml. Just saying…
Lol, some leftists need to get over the fact that not everyone will agree with their pov, and that doesn’t mean those who disagree are “center” or “liberal”, whatever the fuck they think those labels mean. I am tired of what feels like emotional blackmail by hardliners who insist that their biased opinions are definitive progressivism, or that they are the arbiters of truth or justice. But continue being wrong, it’s just you losing credibility 🤷♀️ Truth and justice require a principled and unbiased approach towards morality, ethics and philosophy. I believe people can do better than zero-sum realpolitiks, I guess that’s just my naïve take.
/tiredposting
Yes, you’re correct. But this isn’t the right platform to expect updoots for saying the correct thing.
This here is Lemmy… Founded by tankies, and unfortunately today tankies seem to be wanting their platform back. The may get it back, at this rate… Which sucks, because so many platforms these days are so insanely far-right.
There isn’t really a home for many of us any longer. It’s genuinely depressing… Just far right, and far left places, where the dumbasses of the world love to yell.
Good Lord you’re arrogant
Sorry it came across like that, I was super tired. I think other commenters are right that authoritarianism sucks, whether it’s left or right.
It also sucks when it’s centrist. And guess what, your opinions are not less biased than anyone else, you are no more the arbiters of truth or justice than anyone else, you are no more “principled and unbiased” in you approach towards morality ethics and philosophy than anyone else. Don’t be so goddamn arrogant.
You’re right that no one is an angel or god, no one has perfect knowledge and as such cannot hand out perfect justice. That’s what I am saying, essentially. As soon as people create authoritarian systems, of any kind, they become adherents to one singular way of thinking. That’s the problem.
Edit: stop making the thing into an ad hominem, I am talking about systems and processes.
Yeah, and centrists in the current climate are all supporters of the authoritarian system that is capitalism, and essentially are all adherents to one singular way of thinking.
Your argument is quite compelling, but I’m going to side with the person you’re denigrating on this one. I’m sorry…
I’m just not very far-right… So I can’t fully get into your mindset.
That’s not what zero-sum means. Implied strawman. Insisting that your own position is the arbiter of unbiased truth and justice without demonstrating it (because obviously).
Lol k.
I disagree strongly with this. You simply have no leg to stand on here.
LoL
Tell it to what words mean
The worst thing to come out of social media discourse is ad hominem attacks (attacking a person) being perceived as attacking the argument itself. What an annoying take, no one is a god or angel. We have to do the work to find truth and justice.
Wasn’t an ad hominem either, and that certainly wasn’t invented by social media.
What are you doing, fam? Is this satire itself? Please stop co-opting debate club culture, I paid for my right to use these words.
Oppression is bad…
…Unless that oppression is done by the vanguard to protect the revolution. Then the oppression is ok.
Yeah, the people saying that the guillotine crowd just want to stop oppression are either the stupidest, most ignorant people imaginable or they’re just lying.
The sweet spot is for the current ruling class to obey a set of rules out of fear of the guillotine or incarceration.
Exercising the guillotine or incarceration excessively would just be starting over to build the necessary fear with a new ignorant crop of ruling class.
Or how about you make laws that limit the influence any one person can have and remove money from politics so anyone can run and you don’t have bribes called lobbying?
Oh not your power fantasy? Sorry. I guess countries where democracy works and socialism is blended with capitalism so people are happy all need to have bloody genocides happen to them as well. I can see how it is a very reasonable and non extreme take from a very educated person.
Or how about you make laws that limit the influence any one person can have and remove money from politics so anyone can run and you don’t have bribes called lobbying?
Do you see a path forward to this that doesn’t somehow involve doing away with the current system that allows influence and money in politics? Don’t you think the people who benefit from this arrangement will do everything in their power to keep us from reforming it?
If entirety of the public sees how fucking stupid they are and if you keep reminding them constantly you will get your reforms especially since almost all of the rest of the democractic world has it figured out.
The rest of the democratic world isn’t working off a framework from the 1700s
Lol. Liberals are deeply unserious people.
oppression leads to depression
Horseshoe theory posits a wolf in sheeps clothing and a sheep in wolfs clothing are the same thing.
Ah yess," we need to create classless society by eating all the rich, killing all the landlords and destroying capitalism around the world" is totally different from the far right which is also “do violence against people we don’t like in order to get the society we want”. Youre not a faschist if you think the people who you want to kill are responsible for all your issues I guess. Wait, wasn’t that literally what hitler said?
Calling to violence is sure to get all the reforms you want. You could also, idunno, take a page from the rightwingers playbook and viralize memes about every single thing the administration does wrong so the public does not forget and is turned against them.
What a ridiculous position. You honestly believe that all socialists and/or communists want to kill the rich and the landlords?
Or is that just a convenient strawman you’ve created?
Communism commits evil when it goes wrong; fascism commits evil when all goes to plan. No one, not even Stalin, ever became a communist in order to do evil, whereas that’s the whole point in becoming a fascist. - Julie Burchill
No, some of you are reasonable and non violent. Communists are just fucking idiots no matter which way you cut it.
Because see, you are right now excusing stalin for killing up to 20% of a countries population. YOU ARE NORMALIZING GENOCIDE OF A MASS MURDERER
you have no idea what went down and how it wasnt an accident. it was a quota. There is nothing to discuss. Fuck you for normalizing mass murder and making excuses. You are literally no better than a fucking nazi making excuses for hitler.
Least deranged anti-communist.
I’m not a communist or a socialist, nor did I write the quote.
ETA:
After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives was declassified, and researchers were allowed to study it. This contained official records of 799,455 executions (1921–1953),[717][718] around 1.5 to 1.7 million deaths in the Gulag,[719][720][721] some 390,000[722] deaths during the dekulakisation forced resettlement, and up to 400,000 deaths of persons deported during the 1940s,[723] with a total of about 3.3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.[724] According to historian Stephen Wheatcroft, approximately 1 million of these deaths were “purposive” while the rest happened through neglect and irresponsibility.[725] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Death_toll
The population of the USSR in 1924 was ~124m. The population of the USSR in 1952 was ~186m. This gives us a percentage of 2%-1% of the population.
The revolutionary war saw ~1% of the colonies’ population dying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
There was a 58% population decline from 1800 to 1890 of natives in what is now the United States of America. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States
By that logic, anti-monarchism is also fascist. After all, they tried to create a “better society” by eating all the kings, killing the landed gentry, and destroying feudalism. Must be fascist, right?
This is such an unnuanced representation of anti-monarchism
As it is an unnuanced take of anti-capitalism
Yeah, i kinda missed the point there
no worries
A lot of countries went from monarchies to democracies peacefully and are better for it. If you want to kill people you dont agree with you are faschist. The government is literally baby feeding you workable memes you can use to ring over the population to the side of societal reforms. If you lot were more public about wanting to kill people, why wouldnt the general population vote for trump the third time in order to keep you violent maniacs in check?
How about you spread information about everything the current administration does wrong to sway the public opinion. There is ton of material already and its been day 1. You jerking off to mass murder is working against your goals of a better society.
Practically all countries that abandoned monarchism did it during, after or in fear of violent upheaval. Your frankly just historyless in your reasoning here.
A lot of countries went from monarchies to democracies peacefully
could you name one?
What if the monarchy, with all their power, does nothing to alleviate your abysmal working conditions, and indeed profits from your suffering? What if the monarchy responds to your peaceful petition by, say, butchering your procession in the hundreds?
How about you spread information about everything the current administration does wrong to sway the public opinion. There is ton of material already and its been day 1. You jerking off to mass murder is working against your goals of a better society.
When we do that it gets hand-waved away as “TDS” or some equally trite nonsense.
If you want to kill people you dont agree with you are faschist
Not even the word. A definition of fascism from wikipedia
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
The countries which didn’t go so peacefully notably the US and France and the UK executing Charles I by chopping his head off were partially responsible for other abdications of power being more peaceful. Had nobody been willing to fight we might still all be saying “your majesty”
Cool. I guess only people to the right and left are valid. The right is bad, and the left is good. The rest? I guess we don’t count…
Gee sounds a little like a far right standpoint… That’s so weird, they never go authoritarian!
I guess only people to the right and left are valid. The right is bad, and the left is good. The rest? I guess we don’t count…
Somehow you seem to have misunderstood both actual horseshoe theory and the comic mockery of it.
psst: the center is the part between the two ends. That’s what makes it the center.
I asked AI the following question. I thought the response was worth sharing:
“What evidence is there for the merits of horseshoe theory?”
Let me analyze this carefully. The horseshoe theory suggests that the far-left and far-right of the political spectrum are more similar to each other than to the political center.
The main arguments made in favor of horseshoe theory include:
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Both far-left and far-right movements have historically shown tendencies toward authoritarianism, with examples like Stalin’s USSR and Hitler’s Germany using similar tactics of state control, propaganda, and suppression of dissent.
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Some similar rhetorical and organizational patterns appear in both far-left and far-right movements, such as: populist appeals, scapegoating of particular groups, calls for radical system change, and rejection of liberal democratic norms.
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There are historical cases of individuals and groups moving between far-left and far-right positions, suggesting some underlying commonalities.
However, there are significant critiques of horseshoe theory:
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It oversimplifies complex political ideologies and movements, forcing them into a rigid geometric metaphor that may not reflect reality.
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Surface-level similarities in tactics or rhetoric don’t necessarily indicate deeper ideological similarities. The fundamental goals and values often remain drastically different.
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The theory can be used to dismiss radical critiques of existing systems by equating all forms of political extremism, regardless of their specific content.
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Political scientists generally view it as an oversimplified model that doesn’t adequately capture the multidimensional nature of political ideology.
Rather than a strict horseshoe pattern, many political scientists prefer more nuanced models that consider multiple axes of political belief and recognize that authoritarian tendencies can emerge across the political spectrum without necessarily indicating ideological similarity.
What are your thoughts on how political ideologies should be mapped or compared?
What are your thoughts on how political ideologies should be mapped or compared?
I feel like one scale (left/right) to represent all of politics is such a generalization that most models based on it are pointless
Yes exactly, I recently watched this guy’s video and it made me a lot more aware of the left/right thinking we do
Obligatory “axis spectrum better”
-
NPR did a segment on how people from different sides of the spectrum tend to see each other in a negative light. I TRY NOT TO man, but someone yesterday told me to my face, “Those mother fuckers should burn”, because his neighbor made a sound complaint about his chickens.
Our city is NEXT TO LA. I’m a farmer, and so is he. I don’t understand his worldview at all. He’s an immigrant, and he’s anti-immigration. His business struggles to compete with larger businesses, but he fears socialism. He brags about freedom of speech and the pursuit of happiness, but he thinks he should be able to control women’s bodies. Also, he said a bunch of people should die in a fire. My sister has cerebral paulsy, and if you don’t know, a lot of people who died in the fire couldn’t run for the same reason. I wanted to spit in his face. I’m a bald, white, male farmer, so people open up to me, thinking they’re in good company. I look like a redneck, and technically, I have one. The shit people say is wild. It tends to darken my world view. I try not to focus on them, though, except in ways I can be kind and slowly sway them, hopefully.
You sound like a chill guy for what its worth. Sorry your neighbors a dickhead
I used to be baffled by people’s behavior in the same way, but recently I’ve come to understand that a lot of people see the world through the lens of power instead of morals, and they want to see themselves as the most powerful. Socialism means they didn’t “earn” their business, and surely they can become the next mogul without it. He doesn’t care about other immigrants because he sees himself as above them.
I’ve come to understand that a lot of people see the world through the lens of power instead of morals, and they want to see themselves as the most powerful.
That’s one of the most concise ways I’ve seen it written out. People think reactionaries are stupid; when they say that, they don’t understand that conservative morality is wholly based on putting themselves higher in the hierarchy than the people they hate.
It’s why they make exceptions for themselves and their loved ones: it’s entirely morally consistent that they deserve the exceptions because of who they are.
There’s always a bigger fish
Left pushes reading and education right pushes illiteracy and blind faith in the leader but m’authoritatianism
There are many examples of the left pushing blind faith in the leader (see Mao, Kim Il Sung, Stalin)
There are many cases of authoritarians claiming labels that so not reflect their actions or goals, yes.
I’m progressive, but we should not deny the failure modes of progressivism
It is an inversion of it, actually. The sugar starts on the porridge, so the trueness of the Scotsman can’t be found.
It’s a well documented fact that authoritarians utilize leftist terminology as the keystone of their propaganda/branding strategy. The masses, sadly, will always accept charismatic, strongly-worded branding over genuine ideals. There is nothing “no true scottsman” about it.
Adopting the names of left leaning styles of government does nothing to change their actual oligarch and kleptocratic styles is leadership, so that does not apply.
Unless we’re to believe that Nazi Germany was somehow just a bunch of misguided socialists…
Yeah idk, excluding all the historical Marxist Leninists movements from the leftist continuum feels a bit disingenuous.
Well, Elon and German far-right politician Alice Weidel claimed in a recent talk that Hitler was a communist…
(a) love your name… though I do prefer farro/emmer when given the choice ;)
(b) of course those nazis did… always co-opting existing names and symbols for evil
Soviet Russia wasn’t exactly a model of progressivism though— it was a rigidly hierarchical society with extreme wealth disparity.
Same for the other examples.
The NTS fallacy is about redefining terms to cherry-pick data. Those regimes don’t match any version of ‘progressive’ I’ve ever seen.
There was literally a
slipsplit in the first international. You can’t blame those aligning with the lesser influential side for the things the authoritarians did. “The Left” is a far too broad concept to apply the No True Scotsman fallacy to.Edit: typo
Stalin wasn’t progressivism, actually the opposite, it was the conservative part of the party, that inspired the other dictators.
No child left behind has resulted in every child pushed through the system. My son had a IEP so he couldn’t be failed. So spare me how pro education the left is. They have and are continuing to fail whole generations of kids with their daft notion of education. I see it everyday. The teachers see it and people like me who regularly deal with kids see it. The left can’t see it. The effect is the same and the right are winning by letting the left run the show.
Democrats aren’t left wing
Where can I get that upside-down blue flag shirt? That’s going to go hard while the police are beating me for having a sign on a sidewalk.
It’s been a conservative symbol for years, try places that sell Trump merch.
Yeah but I don’t want to give the orange man money. :(
I’ve had people on this platform tell me they were excited for, “the fall of empire.” Knowing full well there would be a human cost. So yes, oppression is bad, but if your answer is violence then it’s time to parse which violence is acceptable to you because obviously you’ve already distinguished.
All political positions weigh the violence of their positions. Liberals who fight to maintain the status quo are fighting to keep people from enclosed resources like food and housing, with the justification of the profit motive. Whether or not they’re right, they’re accepting blood for their policy
We’ve established what blood the liberals actively tolerate. I don’t think that’s a question at this point.
I’m going to let you in on a secret: the maintenance of the empire is also violence, and also has a massive human cost.
