- cross-posted to:
- flippanarchy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
- cross-posted to:
- flippanarchy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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Looks like people voted no to slavery, but the question asked do you not support slavery.
The answer should have been (yes) I do not support slavery.
Instead (no) I do not support slavery.
I can image a good chunk of people got confused with the wording, and I myself am still confused reading it.
Are you sure? It seems pretty straightforward to me. “This amendment would bar slavery and involuntary servitude.” It’s the first sentence.
With the amount of people that voted for Trump I don’t have much confidence in the literacy of randos
I bet the wording on the ballot was different. Similar election results sites for my local ballot measures hasve greatly simplified the language the ballot had (which honestly is probably how ballot measures should be written)
This is the ballot text, it’s not really confusing at all.
The link you supplied clears it all up. No way anyone could have misunderstood the vote, the ballot even outlines what yes and no mean in the context.
I think I now agree with what krashmo said in the thread below.
“Or maybe Americans are largely shitty people. Stop trying to excuse the behavior and accept it for what it is”
A “resistance” against the will of the majority is generally called a terrorist organization.
Progressive Americans, face it: Most of the people around you want this.
George Carlin called it decades ago.
The politicians are a reflection of us.
Our PEOPLE suck.
A fat, greedy, proudly ignorant, proudly racist, spray tanned elitist bully drunk on schaudenfreude is the perfect American mascot.
He’s like the United States took human form. A monument to all our sins.
If you still consider the rugged individualism we crow about a feature and not severe mental illness, you are infected with the disease. If you want winners and losers, go live in the forest and see if you live or die.
Societies need to work together, and we have been trained in the spirt of capitalist competition🤮 to compete against eachother, to tear eachother down, to root against one another hoping to get moooaaaar for ourselves. This is the very opposite of a society.
Very well said.
In California they have prisoners fight the wildfires. I find it sickening, but it’s a popular program. I wonder if that’s where this result comes from. The wildfires get worse and worse and they need bodies to sacrifice. Depressing.
My thoughts as well.
It’s the wildfires. They don’t want to pay more in taxes to hire more firefighters, at least that’s what makes sense to me.
It’s still an abominably shitty thing and, IMHO, a human rights violation too.
That’s a volunteer program. This is inside the prison work and comes with physical and mental punishment if you refuse.
Not exactly “voluntary” in a meaningful way if the alternative is in-prison work or punishment.
I dunno, I voted for it, but California has HUGE conservative areas and the notion of working off your sentence isn’t exactly new or seen as particularly cruel by most. Also the comparisons to slavery will fall on deaf ears because it’s as much slavery as imprisoning people is kidnapping.
If you are OK with prisons, forced labor within them isn’t going to seem significantly harsher.
Isn’t work in prisons usually a privilege? Is this something that is actually used? What happens when someone just doesn’t do what is asked of them?
Solitary confinement, bread and water meals, and even beatings by guards have been reported by prisoners.
People likely voted for not repealing the provision allowing involuntary servitude as a punishment for crime and not for keeping slavery.
Whoever thought combining those two things in one vote was a good idea is an idiot
…what other slavery currently exists (legally) that this would have addressed? This isn’t combining two things. Barring slavery in any form includes punitive servitude. Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.
Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.
Yes, those are two different things that should be addressed separately.
One is emergency plumbing, the other is maintenance.
Man dirk, I’m embarrassed for you and your family 🤦
I’m more embarrassed for the teachers who seem to have failed them.
$10 says the teachers tried. Getting blood out of a rock is hard, never mind getting imagination into one.
Its a form of slavery…
No, it’s a form of punishment. It can be avoided by not committing crimes.
You’re making the following statements, lmk if this is inaccurate:
-Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.
-Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).
Inference made: Constitutional protections and rights do NOT apply to those going against the rule of law.
Questions for you:
-If involuntary servitude isn’t considered slavery, then what would you consider slavery to be?
-Is this a form of punishment that helps to reform and correct those deemed currently unsuitable for society (without going into the meaninglessness of Orwellian naming conventions, they are called the “Department of Corrections”, aren’t they?)
-Do you think the rule of law always corresponds with ethical standards?
-I always like to ask myself the following: Who stands to benefit from allowing slaver- I mean, “involuntary servitude” to continue to be allowed? Who stands to benefit from all this cheap labor?
I’m curious as to your answers here.
I’m curious as to your answers here.
The thing is: it is not black-or-white but always and heavily depends on context. But let me try to clarify my point of view.
Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.
If someone commits a crime and is sentenced to do community service for example, then it is a punishment, yes. In a modern society they are not forced (i.e. with actual psychologic/financial/physical force) but rather given the option to either do community service (or whatever they were sentenced to by the judge, like for example an arsonist has to help rebuilding what they burned down) or chose not to do it. It this case they either have to pay a certain amount of money or they’re going to jail instead.
Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).
Yes, in two ways. First, it is part of their correction process by giving them a structured day, a responsibility, something to be proud of (like getting a qualification or being able to have some form of apprenticeship helping them to gain a foothold in society, etc., etc.). And second as part of their imprisionment. Also mainly to have a structured day and having them away from their cell so the prison staff can search it for contraband, the cleaning staff to do their work, etc. The prisoners will also get some money from it for being able to buy “luxury goods” in the prison kiosk (i.e. goods that are not provided by the prison, like chocolate, good/better coffee, etc.).
They’re also not “forced” to do this. If they decide not to, then they usually get more strict rules, like less “free” time in the courtyard, not allowed to have regular visitors, no day parole, earlier cell confinement and less time to see other inmates, etc.
what would you consider slavery to be
Forcing someone to do work for you, using physical (threatening with, or using violence), psychological (talk them into doing it, yelling at them, bully them, etc.), or financial (exploiting their poverty) force and/or ignoring safety risks and/or ignoring health issues and risks.
So: inmates are “forced” doing work in the context I described: not slaves. Poor exploited locals building soccer stadiums in Dubai: slaves.
Oh go away, they did not vote for “slavery”. They voted to allow making convicted felons work as part of their sentence. It’s slavery in the same sense that working to buy food and pay rent is “slavery”. Metaphorically yes, but calling it slavery devalues the experiences of all the people who were kidnapped from their homes, brought here in chains on ships, and sold in a market.
Something something 13th Amendment?
Yes, let’s read the 13th Amendment together: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
Notice that two things are listed - slavery and involuntary servitude. I define convict labor as involuntary servitude. The 13th Amendment doesn’t back up either interpretation.
Yeah guy, we are both referencing the same idea, but from distinctly different perspectives, it would seem. You seem to like the punishment clauses, whereas I would argue that an Amendment ratified in 1865 is very much due for an overhaul.
The props are worded so insanely that without hours of prep, I would vote incorrectly.
My state banned ranked choice voting by an insane margin because it was worded like “only citizens should be allowed to vote, and each citizen only gets one vote each!” Literally two Google searches would clear it up if people had more critical thinking skills
That’s what I’d call a rigged election.
This is also one of the downsides of citizen ballot initiatives. The proponent can usually word things however they want.
In Mass., I know they have a strict judicial review for the language. It requires a clear and fair statement, and it gets refined through a unique type of litigation.
