You know, Robin Williams was the reason that I started doing stand-up comedy? My personal hero. Knowing that he did this for Neelix, especially when he was getting a lot of hate? Robin is a saint. Also just a small thing because I wanted to honor the man…
Reason #72151.
7-21-51.
July 21st, 1951.
Robin Williams birthdate.
Carry on 💙
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The older I get, the more I appreciate Neelix.
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The problem, I think, is that people think Neelix is this vapid obnoxiously happy character.
Once you’re a bit older or if you’ve been through shit, you realise he’s suffering from severe trauma and mental illness, and that the whole jovial extroversion thing is often a coping mechanism. He’s been through a lot, so he doesn’t want others to be sad.
Far more complex than you initially think.
As someone with relatives who survived the holocaust, I recognise the type.
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Not too different from Robin Williams
Not me. The.older I get the more I think it’s creepy that when we meet him he’s dating a 2 year old. As a teenager I bought the “they develop faster” hand wave, but if you think about it regardless of how quickly kes’s species develops physically, they still only have a level of experience and knowledge you can learn in 2 years. Dating someone that naive is a very rapey power imbalance. I can’t believe they allowed him around Naomi. Should have thrown him out the airlock.
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I agree that you can’t really compare years to years here. They clearly mature mentally and physically faster. It is altogether weird still, but so is the basic concept of dating aliens from another species.
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For me the problem isn’t so much in the concept itself, but rather how casually it’s treated by the writing. Almost nobody on the show ever delves deep at all into how strange it is from a human point of view. It’s taken as read, and the audience is just left to stew in their own notions.
Vulcans may live longer, but they mature at about the same rate, reaching adulthood in their early to mid 20s. I’m not saying humans (or talaxians) are superior to kes’s race, only that there’s only so much you can learn in 2 years. It’s more like a 50 year old human dating a 17 year old human, it’s creepy and exploitative.
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It’s not about “better”, it’s about power imbalance. When we meet her, when neelix has already been dating her for quite a while, she has the life experience of a very small child whereas he is a full grown adult who served in tne army and ran a trading business. It’s a classic example of grooming.
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On the surface, yeah, it’s pretty bad, and if Neelix was a human I wouldn’t excuse it (cough cough TOM), but Talaxians had much more cultural exchange and knowledge of the Ocampa. I can criticize the writers for not properly dealing with the squick factor, but in-universe I have to give characters the benefit of the doubt and take them at their word.
Ocampans really do mature and accumulate knowledge and understanding at over ten times the rate of humans. They have passed all galactic cultural standards for being able to consent, and are granted the ability to choose for themselves. They clearly also have some telepathic abilities, so it’s likely those come into play in passing on knowledge and understanding from one generation to the next, allowing them to progress through maturity exponentially faster than most other species.
And since Talaxians have cultural history with them, Neelix has enough of a rich understanding of that dynamic to make an informed choice that has nothing predatory about it.
Kes could out-maneuver almost anyone on board both intellectually and emotionally, but she also has enough gravity to not seem either fey or condescending about it. I don’t see any power imbalance there. If anything she’s the one taking advantage of Neelix in order to escape the drudgery of her own life. She cares for him, but it’s obvious from the eventual outcome that she doesn’t really see him as a life partner so much as an opportunity.
Text of the story for people with non-superhuman vision:
‘It was about the third season. They finished my makeup around 7. I was going over to Stage 16 where we shot the cave scenes. I walked down the long alley between the stages. As I turned the corner I could see way up the other end of the alley another person walking towards me. It was just sunrise. We got closer and closer. Were about 10 feet from each other, and I realized it’s Robin Williams, who was on the lot doing The Birdcage. He sees me and goes, ‘Oh my God, Mr Neelix!’ Then he does this whole routine about what it’s like to be a chef in outer space. The eggs are floating, the pancakes are getting too big!’ a Robin Williams shtick. I had a private performance for like a minute and it was really funny. Then he came up, gave me a big hug and said, 'I love your character, sir.’ Such a sweet, sweet man, I’ll never forget that.
You are a kind soul.
I do not enjoy watching Neelix very often, but I understand why the crew liked him so much. He’s just so unconditionally kind and always trying to make everyone smile. I bet it was really cool to try all his alien foods too
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Two of my fav VOY episodes are centered around Neelix. He’s one of the best characters on that show. No need to argue with me about it, because deep down we all know I’m right. ^^
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Jetrel and Mortal Coil, of course. My fav Tuvok episode is probably Meld, but mainly because I loved the plot around Suder and the actor of Suder is great in general. I’ve got nothing against Tuvok, but I don’t really get Vulcans and their logic only attitude. It’s why I thought the arc around Tuvix was interesting, but agreed, the character made a lot of folks very uncomfortable. Still, I think they should’ve used the transporter to “duplicate” Tuvix and devide the copy instantly back to Neelix and Tuvok. ^^
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Glad you liked my picks. :)
Oh, I’m fully aware of the Vulcan “logic only” background, but to me watching them behave and act the way they do, I’d rather watch paint dry. ^^
Regarding the double Tuvix plot: It’s why you have to split the copy Tuvix the same second he’s being created. Not aware of wtf was going on, Tuvok and Neelix show up again and are like: “Who the hell is that lad?” :D
Edit: Nah, you’re grand and I liked your objection. I had to explain further how to avoid that problem in the first place.
Edit 2: I loved Spock’s brother Sybok. He had some spice in his jam.
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Don’t you be worrying, love. All’s good.
Agreed, Vulcans do win all gold medals for sass! In that regard I’ve got to admit that my fav is probably T’Pol. But it’s hard to pick a winner with Spock and Tuvok participating in that race.
Had to laugh so hard trying to imagine how the Doctor’s hair would first turn grey and fall out a second later :D
Sybok returning in SNW would be epic!
Also, Gravity is a very good Tuvok episode. Stubborn lil snot, back in the day. ^^
I really liked the episode in the orbital lift as well. And I wish Suder had been in more episodes! He was so good!
Oh yes, Rise was fricking great, too!
Edit: Thanks a mil, re-watching that episode right now! :D
Brad Dourif is awesome, I love his character in everything I’ve seen him in. His Babylon 5 episode was crazy good too.
Sudor’s arc is great. Have you seen Babylon 5? Because Brad Dourif plays a monk in ‘passing through Gethsemane’ and it’s also an excellent performance. Probably my favorite guest character in the series.
Goddamn I love that episode.
I’m not going to say it’s the best episode of the series, but when I try to think which one is, it’s always the first that comes to mind.
Yes, Bab5 is one of my favourite shows of all time and Dourif’s acting was on point. Same with Walter Koenig in each episode featuring Alfred Bester.
It’s amazing what Koenig did with that character in the limited time he got.
Not hate, but we can’t just ignore Neelix’s creepy controlling nature/jealousy over Kes.
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Unlike Gowron, I can forgive, but I do not forget.
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Uh, yeah he did? He was still acting creepy and controlling regardless of his motives.
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For what it’s worth, I see zero mentions of her age in the thread, so I think that was an assumption on your part
But I’m in complete agreement about the creepy and controlling comments. He wasn’t creepy, he was having anxiety over the relationship, and she addressed it herself, eventually choosing to end that relationship.
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The forgiveness happens after the apology. The forgiveness is required. Perfectly logical, My good Doctor(?).
E: and yeah I wasn’t bringing up age; that’s too wishywashy given rate of maturity for the species and all that.
That said, I’m old enough that dating a 19 year-old would creep normal people out.
Kurn has the opposite problem
Big oof. Right in all eight heart chambers.
Exactly! Now let´s all hate Wesley together! /s
tbh his vibes are off when he starts dating and agrees to impregnate a 2 year old
but if you remove that I like neelix
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That only means that Kes should probably not have a relationship with anyone from a longer lifespan species.
The same way a 200 year old Vulcan would look at a 20 year old human as an immature kid. Hell, I look at a 20 year old human as immature and I’m just in my thirties!
Biological maturity does not equal getting the life experience of an adult. Not enough life experience means more naive and easier to manipulate, even if the older being doesn’t want to.
Hell, I look at a 20 year old human as immature and I’m just in my thirties!
Biological maturity does not equal getting the life experience of an adult. Not enough life experience means more naive and easier to manipulate, even if the older being doesn’t want to.
That’s some shit and you should judge people by their character instead of their age. I’ve known people in their fifties and sixties who were less mature than other people I’ve known in their twenties, and we’re not dealing with developmental issues here.
Some people have gone through way too much shit by the time they hit twenty and have moved well past being “naive and easy to manipulate”. I say this having been one and married another.
Maybe the real “immature kid” is the one making ageist judgements on people who really aren’t that much younger than they are.
It’s still weird in the context of humans made the show Star Trek. I actually like Neelix and Voyager but it was still a little weird. It felt like those times the writers want to inject their fetish into the script, or like in anime there will be a 10,000 year old vampire who looks 9.
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I’m i getting too old or is the image with a bunch of text on it, in an image of a tweet just not at all legible.
Theres another comment in this thread that has a transcript
Thanks I found it.
Time to take your back pills
