More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful
Interestingly it looks like in 3 of 4 charts men have, at worst, returned to mean. It’s the women getting more leftist. And I don’t blame them.
Conservative being down is a good presentation choice.
From a personal point of view, I agree, but playing devil’s advocate, really the chart should be flipped so that the left/rightness is shown that way and the dates are on the vertical axis.
It’d also be good if the time periods matched, and if there was a source for the data.
Is this… tilted slightly?
Am I leaning?
left-leaning, maybe
Mine curves to the left
When I think of all the women & girls in my life that I care about, I remember that I could never be a conservative. It would be a betrayal.
Assuming this is accurate, I’m pleased to see men in the UK bucking the trend.
This is out of date.
People are losing faith rapidly in the left because they don’t seem to be for the everyday working class Briton like they used to be.
There is a big shift going to Reform now largely because they want to reduce immigration. The left deny the situation and the right have claimed they will reduce it every year then increase.
People are flooding to the “far right”* because they don’t seen the main parties address the main issue they want addressing and have been talking about for decades at this point, generations even.
_* not actually far right. But the left love throwing that term around to anyone that has a different opinion to them. They just want lower immigration, which historically has been a left leaning ideology
As women gain independence, frightened men turn to patriarchal solutions. Hence a turd like JD Vance spouting hateful and controlling rhetoric on podcasts and Ahole Tate brainwashing adolescent boys. Fuck these people.
A few folks have mentioned that these charts
- conflate liberal/conservative with the dominant left/right parties in these nations
- does not include people who do not identify with one of those dominant parties
- have some somewhat unreliable stats magic behind them
A lot of young men in the US are reporting themselves as “not a Democrat or Republican”, and that’s causing a lot of this proportional shift. I would bet that characterizes a lot of folks on this site who are not conservative.
https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/3/13/24098780/politics-gender-divide-generation-z-youth-men-women
https://www.allendowney.com/blog/2024/01/28/is-the-ideology-gap-growing/
On the flip side, in Europe extreme right parties are mostly being propped up by young men, while in other age groups men and women vote relatively similarly, which supports this finding.
Exactly. I would be almost as upset with being classified as a liberal or a Democrat as I would be a conservative.
I get classified as all three depending on who I’m talking to.
At the same time I know many people (my brother included) that claim to be “independent” because they think that the trump camp is somehow outside the conservative camp, and therefore respond “independent” on polls. Because they think “I’m not democrat or conservative, I just want to drain the swamp” and then support trump, who is literally a swamp.
Edit: read Jane Jacobs system of survival
This is your brain on idealism, just pure vibes. Political astrology.
Have you read it? Don’t judge too quickly!Actually on second thought nvm. If that’s you’re response then I’m out :)
No, but like… dude, you could flip half of those supposed traits between categories and it would read exactly the same. That’s why I called it astrology.
Perhaps you just did a bad job of presenting the book’s ideas, but I’ve just read through a summary of it and it didn’t exactly make me reconsider my knee jerk reaction.
Thanks for explaining. I did a bad job explaining it, but I’m only taking a short break irl and am just jumping into this conversation. I’ve removed that section of my comment.
The book explains this in more detail and I recommend it. We don’t get much deep discussion into what it means to be conservative/liberal and the purpose of the book isn’t to go into that but it does provide a framework. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs
What the fuck South Korea? Also you just know that sudden rise in liberal men in the UK is the Tories’ doing.
SK is wild right now. Women are taking part in the 4B movement (no dating, sex, childbirth, or marriage. The Korean words start with “B”). There was a online feminist group that got people so heated they thought they were sneaking hand signals into “male” media and they were getting people fired. If certain characters didn’t come out with risqué enough clothing, male netizens would blame some secret feminist in the company. Women are assaulted if they’re confused for a feminist due to just their hairstyle. A book (“Kim Jiyoung 1989” I think) that is, like, baby’s first feminist literature, can have your spouse leave you. Men say you can’t date a woman whose read it. All the book is about is the subtle sexism women face. They have an epidemic of “molka,” which are secret cameras in women’s bathrooms among other places. Women tell each other to bring nail polish to paint over the screws to protect themselves. Their new president is looking to abolish the gender equality ministry and blames feminism for the low birth rate.
TL;DR: Yeah, it’s pretty bad over there right now.
Holy fuck. There are legitimately third world countries better than this what the fuck.
Anti-feminism has taken a huge hold in SK. it’s partially related to the draft, but that’s nothing new. women have been getting increased respect over the past decades, esp in sharp contrast to the pre-war era when women didnt even deserve names beyond “X’s mom”.
the situation for women is actually improving a lot here, in many ways better than in other developed nations. consider it just one last baby whine
oh yeah, South Korea has gone off the rails recently. lots of news stories about men assaulting women for the assumption that they’re feminists, anti-woman politicians being elected, women losing their jobs for being (or assumed to be) feminists, it’s all Very Not Good.
The Tories are really good at convincing people to hate them, fuck the Tories
Hey look if you start taking away white male privilege they freak out when they find out people of other races, genders and creeds are better than them, who knew?
What’s the source? I wanna learn about the weird unexpected drops in some countries.
For anyone else also interested, I went and had a look at the links Dessalines kindly provided.
The source on the graphs says “Sources: Daniel Cox, Survey Center on American Life; Gallup Poll Social Series; FT analysis of General Social Surveys of Korea, Germany & US and the British Election Study. US data is respondent’s stated ideology. Other countries show support for liberal and conservative parties All figures are adjusted for time trend in the overall population.” Where FT is financial times.
It’s not clear how the words “liberal” and “conservative” were chosen, whether they’re intended to mean “socially progressive” and “socially traditional” or have other connotations bound with the political parties too, and whether the original data chose those descriptions or if they’re FT’s inference as being “close enough” for an American audience.
Unfortunately the FT data site is refusing to let me look at them without “legitimate interest” advertising cookies so I can’t tell you much more or if there’s any detail on methodology.
🌳 Die? No. We lost them, and now we cannot find them.
Now I hear Treebeard whining about modern females and how none of them want to be Entwives for alpha Ents
If you read the books, you’ll find that you’re not far off.
Poor Treebeard…
I genuinely fear for future for women across the world
Lol yeah woman were much safer, better educated, and financially independent historically. /S
That’s a different argument - yes, things were worse in the past than they are now. That doesn’t mean that things won’t get worse than they are now in the future.
Read “why women had better sex under socialism, and other arguments for economic independence”
Current trends will definitely continue and there has never been large sociopolitical upheavals in the past, and there definitely won’t be any in the future.
lol
Current trends will definitely continue and there has never been large sociopolitical upheavals in the past, and there definitely won’t be any in the future.
Why won’t anyone date me?
Prolly because you are poor
In more categories than one. Could you be more specific?
Financial and emotional… The order depends on the counterparty’s preference
You were correct before you even answered
Here, have some unsourced data on subjective tendencies.
Nah, that doesn’t count as data just yet then.
Especially not at a point in time where someone like Trump is said to represent “Conservatism”.
Is anyone brave enough to ask why?
Women are rightfully concerned about the loss of bodily autonomy. They don’t want to live in the handmaids tale.
I’m sure that is part of it but proposing that as the sole reason seems unnecessarily reductive.
Bro really said that losing all right to bodily autonomy isn’t a good enough reason to dramatically shift someone’s political leaning
I didn’t say that at all and if that’s what you thought I said then your reading comprehension skills could use some work. I said reproductive rights are a part of a larger culture shift in how women vote. If even one woman has started voting against Republicans for reasons other than abortion access then your dumb assertion that they don’t care about anything else falls apart. So maybe you should stop trying to simplify complex issues into easy to digest soundbites in order to make yourself seem like the most intelligent person in the room.
You’re right, but man reading this is insufferable. You could be much more effective if you weren’t trying to be a vindictive dick.
If you read the comment that preceded my response and came away thinking that I’m the one who devolved the conversation to this point then I’m going to have to disagree with you. That guy was clearly trying to stroke his own ego by putting someone else down and vapid grade school bullying tactics are something of a pet peeve of mine. My original comment was perfectly civil.
When pregnancy and child birth are such a monumental part of a persons life, and the ability to choose whether or not to go through that process is taken away, it makes a lot of sense why this is the ‘sole reason’ for some women. As someone who very recently gave birth, everything else in the world and other political topics are dwarfed by the absolute earth-shattering life event that is bringing a child into this world. I think it is something that people who haven’t been through it themselves, or who are not empethetic can not wrap their heads around. But there is absolutely a reason why many women are voting liberal for abortion rights alone. That is the single freedom that contributes most directly to a womens adult life. While tax policies and national affairs have an impact on everyones day to day lives, reproductive rights have an acute impact on womens immediate futures.
Abortion is undoubtedly a big reason for shifting voting habits for a large number of women. However, it is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the way conservatives, particularly conservative men, treat and talk about women.
I know women who describe themselves as pro-life and yet have moved away from the Republican party due to the way they have handled various GOP leaders sex scandals, rape accusations, and general attitude towards women. They don’t want abortion rights restored and yet they are turning away from Republicans. That is why I say that viewing this shift in voting habits solely through the lens of reproductive rights is unnecessarily reductive. By doing so you are excluding women who are part of that shift from consideration both in this discussion and in the larger view of what women in America want their future to look like. Your experience, while not uncommon, is not universal and any discussion that frames a complex issue in such a way is missing part of the picture.
Oh there are absolutely women who have turned their backs on the conservative party for those reasons and remain pro life. Personally, I see the issues as interconnected. It feels like we see a headline at least once a month where a conservative politician had an extra marital affair and was perfectly fine insisting their girlfriend get an abortion so that they can maintain their squeaky clean image. Or if their daughter had premarital sex and her successful college career was in jeopardy they would see things differently. Rules for thee and not for me. The shift is obviously more nuanced than a single issue, but reproductive rights radiates through a lot of different issues because it has to do with specifically men and their belief that their opinion matters more than others.
This is probably more of a symptom than a cause, but social media platforms pushing manosphere content isn’t helping.
I wasn’t paying attention for like 2 seconds and it went from “Men also have rights” to “Andrew Tate is a role model”, like WTF internet, stop ruining good things, fuck.
Unfortunately, “Men’s Rights” was a bait and switch. The Alpha/Sigma ideology says there can only ever be a handful of “True Men” worthy of human rights. Everyone else has to either prove themselves through combat or submit to being less than human.
Unfortunately it’s not a bait and switch, there real issues in how we’re failing boys and men are surely contributing to this concerning trend.
Especially when we blame the victims.
These “True Men” ass holes are simply swooping in to prey on the young men who’ve been left behind, like any cult leader would.
real issues in how we’re failing boys and men
Only the poor ones. You know, the “betas”.
These “True Men” ass holes are simply swooping in to prey on the young men who’ve been left behind
They’re driving the disparity. Artificially constricting the demand for labor in order to drive down wages. Privatizing public services to squeeze working people for their last dime. Bombarding audiences with FUD in order to get them to blame every conceivable external agent - illegal migrants, evil foreign governments, spies, terrorists, literal fucking space aliens - so that the public is in a constant state of anxiety and exhaustion. Busting unions. Busting street protests. Busting college campuses. Corrupting the foundations of the political system to shield themselves from accountability for their shady actions. Then dumping vast fortunes into policing and the military in order to unleash wave upon wave of violence on working class communities.
At the forefront of all of these moves are “Alpha” men. People who believe themselves entitled to enormous wealth and social privilege, extracting at the expense of the rest of us. Its only after we’ve been ravaged that we see the lackeys and sycophants of these self-entitled paymasters step back in to recruit for the next generation of gladiatorial fighters, street cops, and foreign mercenaries.
Alpha/Sigma ideology
I remember when that was just a category of porn writing 😞
I recon its both, looks like the symptom makes the cause more potent makes the symptoms worse.
Andrew Tate blaming normal life issues on women and pushing teenagers to be very hateful against them is one big reason
If the issues young men had wherent real he wouldnt have the followers. We do account for 75% of suicides so Tate’s diagnosis is correct just his treatment is wrong.
75% of suicide deaths. the number of attempts is about the same
“Dont send a women to do a mans job” - Andrew Tate
He preys on vulnerable young men, yes, that’s the point. There are healthier male role models online but I’m not sure youtube shares them widely.
Exactly. But i feel both sides simply see these young men as soldiers to be recruited to their army of ideology. Regardless their is definatly a crisis of purpose for all youths thats effecting men particularly badly.
This is such a wildly intelligent comment that I’m curious what the down voters think. Guessing either Tate fans or ignoramuses, but I’m happy to be proven wrong.
Have been discussing it with them and they are simply unwilling to give him any credit even if said credit is for highly successfull marketing of a wildly dangerouse religion like ideology to vulnerable youths.
How disgusting, people being unwilling to credit a rapist and sex trafficker.
It’s “The Woke”. Women are more visible in society as they are treated more equally, so certain (yes not all men) men see that as men losing rights and want to go back to “the good old days”
If you created a similar graph mapping the ideology gap between races or straight and LGBTQIA+ they’d look very similar.
The answer is simple the media is radicalizing people and gender is one of their primary motivations it is hand tailored to divide and conquer minds.
I agree. Any divide they can make they will make. Its also convenient as it means they can use their culture war propaganda for double action to distract the masses.
Rapid increases in the productive forces of South Korea has resulted in a progressive population of women and a hyper-reactionary population of men, the increase in productive forces was so rapid it caused a hyper-sharpening of contradictions with tradition.
Fascism is sociologically rooted in the sexual insecurity of men. That’s why it’s always men driving it.
Do you have a reason to think this or did it just sound good in your head
There is a ton of academic interest in the relationship between sexuality and fascism. It was first noted in “The Mass Psychology of Fascism” by Wilhelm Reich after WW2. My comment is, of course, a massive oversimplification of a complex social dynamic.
It’s the same dynamic that made US racists paranoid that black men wanted to rape white women when, in fact, their deeper fear was that white women wanted to have sex with black men. Fascists are particularly sensitive to sexual relations between “their women” and whomever they have chosen to blame for all their misfortunes.
Fascism is Capitalism in decline. Masculinity is a recognized part of fascism, but fascism is rooted in Capitalist decay, not in moral failures of men.
Women live in the same declining capitalistic society as men, yet they are far more resistant to fascism. That’s not to say there is something wrong with men or masculinity. Society puts different pressures on men and women so they react differently.
Fascism is capitalism when the capitalist class gets too successful, as soon as the capitalists realize they can establish fascism they always do.
So facism is mens fault? I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing? Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
The only possible explanation for any of this is that men are bad and we should definitely not examine the underlying causes and material conditions at all.
No, it’s not “men’s” fault, but the people who’s fault it is are primarily men. That’s not an opinion, that’s just history, not to mention what’s happening before our eyes. Even women who are fascist push patriarchy. There is no point in debating whether fascism is primarily a male driven phenomenon. The only legitimate question is why?
Your misconstruing the statement. Fascism is a way for insecure men to feel powerful. These men are feeling insecure due to lack of job prospects, lack of honest to God to physical insecurity, and that also makes them less desirable to potential mates.
The way to protect against fascism is to ensure proper addressing of Maslow‘s-goddamn-hierarchy of needs. Endstage, capitalism leads to fascism, but it has to secure itself in spreading racism and sexism.
I knew it as soon as I read your ‘Tate is right’ bullshit.
So facism is mens fault?
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.
I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing?
The same way that one woman having an abortion harms another woman; not at all.
Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
It’s room temperature IQ weakling reactionaries like you that are harming young men. Real men stand against fascists.
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries
that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.this is kind of meaningless to point out, since men also had the power in every country that turned towards socialism, gave or took away rights, started and ended wars, etc.
I knew it as soon as I read your ‘Tate is right’ bullshit.
So men have no issues and the only reason men are listening to tate is cos they are hatfull evil bastards?
Yes. Men had all the political power in the countries that turned to fascism in the past. If you knew any history this would be obvious.
Im so happy to learn that women didnt go along with fascism or support it in any way. If u knew anything about history u’d have heard of Magda Goebbels, Irma Grese, Eva Braun, Margaret Harker, Yukiko Sugishita etc.
The same way that one woman having an abortion harms another woman; not at all.
Abortions are about the liberty to do with onself as one wishes, what does this got to do with u blaming men for fascism? Having your gender (something where most people derive a majority of their identity) blamed for the entirety of facism and its hanouse actions isnt exactly fair or a good way to raise a child.
It’s room temperature IQ weakling reactionaries like you that are harming young men. Real men stand against fascists.
This is bad faith child-like insults not a civilised discussion of ideas undertaken by real adults. I stand against fascists and i will not let you paint me as one.
to the privileged, equality is oppression. And therefore more pushback to maintain the status quo
Apparently you are, god speed you poor thing.
Im not afraid of downvotes or getting my feewings hurt.
Women’s lib has been great for women but not so good for men. So men are becoming reactionary.
Bullshit. Most men suffer under toxic patriarchy as well. I absolutely love that this shit is finally getting pulled into the spotlight. I have not suffered a single iota of harm from anything “woke” and I would argue that no honest man has either.
Dishonest men still get to vote though
How do men suffer under patriarchy? Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives? Sounds like ur calling all cis men evil bad people. I wonder what such a narrative would do to a young man trying to develop a sence of self, identity, and personal ideology?
How do men suffer under patriarchy?
Queer and gender nonconforming men get an immense amount of abuse due to patriarchy. Even gender conforming straight boys and men do if they show sensitivity in any real capacity. The abuse of boys and young men for the sake of making them “man up” is hardly an unusual in many areas.
Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives?
What? This has nothing to do with the comment you replied to.
Sounds like ur calling all cis men evil bad people.
No, this is a ridiculous conclusion you drew from someone saying patriarchy hurts everyone.
Do u really want to be the one blaming 75% of suicides on men not being allowed to beat their wives?
This is so back asswards it is genuinely astounding.
Men are 75% of suicides under patriarchy.
Damn I wonder how someone could conclude that patriarchy hurts the majority of men.
Yep. Toxic masculinity wants us to work ourselves to death without complaining to anyone. So our mental health is in the fucking toilet. If you’re not working enough, you’re not providing and you’re not a real man. If you do work enough but show any emotion that’s not a “manly” emotion (anything involving tears outside of a funeral or during Old Yeller or anything that’s too excited) then you’re not a real man.
I could write a whole dissertation on how young men get sucked into that whole toxic ideology due to the promises of being able to have a family and a house. And it’s all a fucking lie.
Toxic masculinity wants us to work ourselves to death
My man… Your owner wants this and we LARPed that kool aid.
Got take some ownership IMHO
Also, got to ID the perp… Otherwise this entire discussion is a futile exercise.
Men are 75% of suicides under patriarchy.
Male suicide is getting worse every year the patriarchy is getting destroyed more every year, im simply pointing out the correlation is backward sof what u claim.
Damn I wonder how someone could conclude that patriarchy hurts the majority of men.
The data correlates exactly the wrong way for this to be true.
Correlation does not equal causation.
I would point to the economic disparity that is widening in virtually every advanced economy as a much more relevant driver of male suicide.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Exactly but causation does not come without correlation. Causation is a subset of correlation.
I would point to the economic disparity that is widening in virtually every advanced economy as a much more relevant driver of male suicide.
Economic disparity should be effecting the genders equally unless you are saying women are doing better financially.
What the fuck?
Just because one side gets more rights, doesn’t mean the other side loses rights.
I guess if the rights you miss is the ability to beat your wife without repercussions.
Huh, that explains the 4B movement in S. Korea.
In my city, there’s a Korean community and from my friend who is a teacher, those girls who left Korea hate Korean dudes and want to hook up with Americans.
I don’t understand anything about Korean culture or k-pop.
But after reading about 4B, this is starting to make sense.
a Nier fandom?
4B can be described as some kind of feminist, but it’s also extremely reactionary.
Do shitty things for years in the pressure cooker until the pressure reaches it’s peak, get an explosive reaction.
