All I’m saying is according to English grammatical rules it’s a perfectly valid method of referring to a singular person when gender is unknown.
Now according to societal politeness rules on the other hand, it’s rude as fuck.
It’s not rude, it’s dehumanizing. Slightly worse, right?
Unless it identifies as another species, then it’s still dehumanizing but also affirming I guess.
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Don’t say that word!
I read this in JarJar’s voice
Lmao I was thinking that you mean they and was so fucking confused for a while thinking how rude I’ve been for YEARS.
I would say that, given that it’s never ok, it is part of English grammartical rules. In German they actually use two different words for when a human eats or when an animal eats, it’s not unprecedented and there’s no need to lend any credibility to the usage of the word “it”.
There is a single precedent I can think of, which is that with some regularity I see infants/newborns referred to as “it”.
A mindset from the before (antibiotics) times. Babies used to die quite frequently. So much that in some cultures babies weren’t named until later in their life, not during pregnancy as it’s custom today. So they were kind of an out there thing, that wasn’t baptized and named yet, they were an it. They were “the baby”. No different than a dog or a turtle, they might die without a name, given an unmarked burial. And off to the next pregnancy. Still a tragedy, and people did mourn and suffered the loss. But not to the same degree of modern, western medicalized, pregnancies were almost every single baby born is expected to at least survive to infancy.
“Can you tell if that’s a man or a woman over there?” “It’s a man.”
My point was merely to show the difference between what is grammatically ok vs what is societally ok.
In time, I imagine English grammar will continue to change with the language and it will take on a definition that indicates something nonsentient.
according to English grammatical rules it’s a perfectly valid method of referring to a singular person
show me ONE fucking example prior to 2000 of people using “it” for persons without it being dehumanizing
singular “they” has fulfilled this function for at least 500 years. “it” has never been a pronoun for humans, until it recently saw use as a neo-pronoun.
there is no grammar rulebook. grammar is usage. you are claiming that it’s been used like that. you’re wrong.
You’re more than welcome to go back in time and inform my 10th grade teacher of this. Lemme know how that works out for you.
oh shit nvm didn’t realize your tenth grade English teacher said otherwise mb
I default to whatever the traditional apparent gender would be assumed I.E. you look like traditional woman/man I refer to you as such. Then I allow myself to be corrected if it’s inaccurate.
The intent isn’t offensive and I’m not going to ask each individual what pronouns are preferred but will respect whatever I’m informed is correct in each instance. I think it’s being made into a mountain when it’s really just a mole hill. You can’t expect every human to automatically be correct or informed or even default to a neutral when it is not yet the norm.
It seems too trivial to be butthurt over if it isn’t malicious, especially upon first interaction. Let the person know, then if ignored or dismissed it can be considered offensive.
I don’t get upset when people call my Bugles potato chips, they are little crunchy cones of heaven
I started using they after 2 years accidentally misgendering a colleague from another country because it looked like she had a beard in Teams profile picture
That sounds reallllly rough haha, hopefully it was taken with more humor than insult. I just go with ye ol “assume ignorance or mistake over malice” anytime an interaction like that happens. Majoritively it is one of the former and there was never an issue to begin with. Sorta like getting some fused Bugles, I doubt the company intended to send it to me, just a simple double delicious mistake
Yeah as a pretty genderfucky person, people pretty commonly misgender me, and most of the time it’s no big deal. It gets pretty easy to tell when it’s intentional and when it isn’t. As long as people are empathetic and doing their best, it’s never a problem personally.
That being said, many people outside gender norms have sustained a lot of pain over their identity, oftentimes by using pronouns intentionally to out us or otherwise belittle us. The brain maladapts, especially in more serious cases of abuse, and the limbic system takes over to keep us safe - a distinctive characteristic of PTSD. It’s taken a long time (still ongoing) for me to heal from that, and lots of queer folks are still too close to active abuse to even begin the process. Any grace that one can lend people in these moments can be monumental in their healing process.
(editing to say: lmao love me some bugles too)
I understand not wanting to ask everyone all the time, but defaulting to a neutral pronoun isn’t going to become the norm unless people start using it even when it isn’t the norm. That said, it does feel a lot less natural in Ukrainian and Russian to me, so I’m still trying to figure out the best option there. But in English, singular “they” is pretty widespread already, I think.
I don’t think singular “they” is that common except among very young people, and does lead to confusion.
As an example, my brother once showed me a picture of a person on a dating app and said “they are nice” and I thought he was talking about the person’s breasts…
Also, “it” is dehumanising, I’d feel uncomfortable calling someone “it” even if they told me it was their preferred pronoun.
Singular they has existed in English before the times of Shakespeare. It’s not a fad. It’s a bloody grammatical reality.
Singular they has also always been used when the person is unidentified. “Somebody left their umbrella here!” It’s when the person is identified that it feels awkward at first for us Gen Xers and older in particular.
Context matters. Sometimes it’s confusing!
“They” is pretty widespread but I agree about the “it” part.
That’s what I do Im autistic and struggle with names already and tbh folks that have pronouns that differ from what they look like just fry my brain as that’s another bit of Data I have to remember especially when there are multiple people like that
I’m very much the same way. Using everyone’s pronouns perfectly, especially among people I don’t know well, is a challenge. But all that’s been required to get along with queer folks has just been a best effort and willingness to be corrected and move on.
Y’all.
Could you give this drink to the person of unknown gender over there? Y’all seems to have finished y’all’s previous drink and we want to keep everyone happy!
G’huck
I just call everyone dude.
“Hey, dude.”
“Wassup, dude?”
“My dudes!”
“Dude’s crazy!”
There’s people who don’t like dude being used as unisex
Can’t help people who take offence when none is given. People need to stop taking what isn’t theirs.
People need to stop taking what isn’t theirs.
I’m going to be referring to people taking offense to things like that or being offended for another group of people as “stealing offense” now.
It’s such a great way to put it too.
Why is your name so extra?
Because I’m dope as shit. 😎
For sure the only convincing argument is when they asked if I fuck dudes… that made me think haha
Well, those dudes suck.
Those people should stay in their homes and off the internet, so no one has to see them or speak to them.
Or, y’know, if someone asks me not to call em dude, I just do my best not to. It’s a bit simpler
They aren’t dudes.
Nobody’s asking the elephants how they feel about it
This is how the neutral gender in latin, got absorbed into the male gender in most romance languages.
Doesnt German have a gender neutral form just in case you can’t remember what imaginary sex organs “Pizza” has?
My pizza has whatever kind if imaginary sex organs I want, thank you very much.
Some people have never seen Good Burger and it shows
I’m 100% down for normalizing ‘it’
I see you have an MBA.
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Gendered pronouns in most sentences are a waste and often lead to a false ascertainment. While I don’t use ‘it’ for everyone, I would love to get used to it.
This is why the universal language should be Indonesian. No gendered words, no pronouns, heck there’s even no tenses. By the way, you also pronounce the words the way it was written like Latin so there’s no confusion on how to pronounce the words. The grammar is also straightforward enough you can just grab a dictionary and start speaking coherent Indonesian.
After trying to learn Portuguese this sounds like heaven.
While I don’t care about the gender crap (use what ever), I appreciate having a different pronoun for people or conscious things vs objects of any kind. They/them still holds info over it/that.
I admit I am a poisoned well, though. I was taught ‘it’ is outright disrespectful. Even before I knew LGBTQ+ anything, so it implicitly doesn’t apply to people, IMO.
Roses are red,
violets are blue.
Singular they
predates singular you.
Serial killers refer to people as “it” already. They are the trend setters!
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I isn’t gendered already…
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I suddenly want to move to Sweden. Or just anywhere we don’t need to have arguments about minor language aspects constantly.
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they have hen
which nobody uses
Just 90 ways to say “with”
Wiz wit is non-optional in Finland, but there are 90 different ways to have wiz wit it.
Nice.
I was on Reddit and used he/she. I was scolded by about 15 posters as to why I should be using they.
smh
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I would say it takes effort to be polite. What takes no effort is being rude or dismissive.
Maybe you’re just naturally a positive person though which the majority of people aren’t (at least not on Reddit/lemmy)
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It’s a lowest common denominator strategy. If you respond in kindness, there’s an outsized chance you’ll be attacked in kind. So lots of people choose to attack first rather than be a victim of being attacked. It’s a strategy that only works if enough people choose it.
That’s why I stuck to more niche communities on reddit, less chance that people engage like that. Or, even if they do, I can be genuinely kind back and they usually cool off.
Or, from another perspective, you don’t know if the person you’re engaging with means you or your community harm but they said things that people who do mean you harm have said in the past. So, you make it immediately clear that you and your community aren’t easy targets. It’s still a lowest common denominator strategy, but one that centers the safety of others.
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Yeah, I agree with you. But your strategy requires not allowing (or giving the appearance of not allowing) someone to get to you. If someone says something that pisses you off, you’re probably going to reply while pissed off. I’m not saying this is the optimal strategy, I’m saying it’s just what people do.
I’m neurodivergent, so I usually don’t get wrapped up in conversations like that, but even I fall for it sometimes.
Maybe it’s because sometimes I find myself accidentally in hexbear and getting banned
Why would I want to respect morons who dont give me the same benefit of the doubt though?
In places where assumptions cause kneejerk downvotes and comments like you explained, I wont take the time to make sure to be 100% respectful towards people.
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If they dont give me the benefit of the doubt, I will gladly insult them for talking shit.
I dont really care about rights, as that was never really given to me in my life. I speak up about things I feel that need to be spoken up on.
I didnt say I dont give them respect. I said I dont go out of my way to not cause tears. If for some reason they suspect me of malicious misgendering, and start bitching about it, they can just piss off. I dont misgender, except for comical purposes.
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Those statements are not even in the same context. I have a basic level of respect I give and any more than that is expedient. If they dont respect that, then those are the fuckups that make it sure that I will never ever go out of my way just to please people.
If you identify with the group that fucks with people like that, I cant help you. I guess you can take it as a direct insult, but then I actually dont care because you live and breath by being malicious.
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Why take the time at all then? If you’re going to be rude you clearly don’t care about educating the person.
So you really just do it for some personal validation?
I dont see any kind of merit in educating the person. I usually see that people are too set in their ways, they dont have enough plasticity for this.
Then just ignore them
I was on Reddit … scolded by about 15 posters …
sounds like a success to me
he/she is pretty awkward to use when “they” is RIGHT THERE
“they” has been used singular for longer than “you” had been singular… if you have some weird “rulerslap me mommy” grammar fetish, you can successfully stay erect while using singular they by knowing it was good enough for chaucer, okay
Refer to people as “it” if you want to sound like a serial killer. “It puts the lotion on its skin…”
But what if you just want to know what it’s got in its filthy pocketses, precious?
Then you have the Japanese that just refer to everyone by name and only use pronouns when you don’t know the person’s name
It/that
Grammatically correct, as all things should be
Nah, I identify as multiple people, so it’s they/them for me
That wasn’t asking
When a baby is born they say “its a boy” for example.
Or at any age if the gender is being revealed. “Is that a man or a woman?” “It’s a man.”
“Ecce homo!”
Learn turkish. We only have one pronoun (two if you count the plural). Also, no gender in job titles (or anything else).
Or most Austronesian languages
My vote is with for them/they.
i vote for “it” makes it unified for everything, ties it neatly up.
It/that.
What about “that” or even “that thing” when you want to be fancy.
My pronouns are that/it.
