Probably. I also believe that they would truly honor someone who went through a difficult, painful journey in order to realize - and become - who they really are.
What’s SNW and even DSC then? I’m confused how main characters like Ortegas and Stamets are “set-pieces”? I do really hope they bring back Captain Angel though, what a great baddie (you love) haha.
Well, when they only exist to die for plot points and their only character developent exists to service the convenience of the moment— yeah, clearly these characters are only important as a matter of plot convenience, not as actual people.
It’s cheap, shitty, and shallow. And if you don’t see that for what it is, I feel very bad for you. but I feel worse for all of the LGBTQ audience members who are fooled into thinking that this is progress. It’s fucking trash.
Trek has only evolved from “lgbtq people are invisible” to “lgbtq people are expendable for the sake of ratings”
They only acknowledge us to murder us horribly in order to yank tears.
…Seven of Nine and Rafi got their own command. Stamets and Culber remained a loving couple throughout (apart from Culver’s unfortunate temporary death) and adopted a young enby who had their own growth throughout the series while everyone respected their pronouns. Nurse Chapel is a bi woman who withdrew her application to a fellowship at the Vulcan Science Council, essentially telling them “your fellowship ain’t ready for *me*”.
I wouldn’t consider their queer identities to be conveniences or their character arcs to be simple plot points by any stretch of the imagination. retconning Sulu as gay? Maybe. Agender computer genius aliens stealing the ship or a third-gender alien’s romantic encounter with Riker? Okay, sure.
But the latest Trek serieses put queer people in space and haven’t been using them as lip service or exclusively as minor supporting characters. They’ve been full-fledged characters whose queer identities the audience was been made aware of and shown that, in the future, the bigots lose because their queerness doesn’t define them…it is just a part of who they are. They are masters of their own destinies.
(That being said, as much as I hate the lip service stuff, I do wish they’d have thrown us a bone with Detmer and Owosekun because c’mon…enough queerbaiting already.)
They’ve had out, badass prominent characters whose identities don’t define them in the last three live action Star Trek series, spitting in the face of the aNTi-wOkE haters who claim to love Star Trek but have only ever watched it through their own particular bigoted myopic lenses. What do you want them to do? Invent an actual time machine to do rewrites of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT?
The best way to apologize is to learn from your mistakes and do better in the future. The Star Trek show runners have taken this to heart, so I don’t know what more you want from them. (And I say this as a long-time, trans, leftist Star Trek fan.)
If anyone had a problem it might be the Ferengi watching (Fe)Males putting on clothes and doing business, but they’d just figure out a fine to levy and keep the latinum moving.
It’s worth pointing out that Grand Negus Rom led sweeping changes in Ferengi society largely inspired by the business acumen of his beloved Moogie and to a lesser extent his wife, Leta.
Ferengi were originally written to be a villain race when Roddenberry was directly running TNG, but they ended up testing comical to audiences, originally they were very 60’s free love era coded villains, wearing fur, using space whips, and of course absurdly misogynistic, They also sinffed around like animals, and hooted and hollarded very barbarically, and they weren’t into Rikeresk Polyamory AT ALL, the no clothes thing was a really early line of dialog where a ferengi says “disgusting, they cloth their women, inviting you to disrobe them” or some stupid shit like that. DS9 retconed the Ferengi A LOT, showing the first ferengi female, which was just a slightly shorter ferengi with smaller ears. I always kinda hoped they’d explain woman never leaving Ferengiar, or their homes by having them be very dysmorphic to the males, like huge and immobile physiologically, because aliens. but they mostly made ferengi a comic relief race, they’re kookie! but eventually Moogie controls ferenginar through two puppet Grand Negus. At first the culture shock causes a lot of backlash, but once clothing companies realize they can expend their markets by some 50% of local on planet business everyone stop caring.
I don’t know, but there’s a pattern of Rick Berman having something to do with sexist takes in Star Trek. It’s complicated, and there’s a lot of hear-say. And I think there ought to be some credit given all around for Trek generally being progressive for it’s time.
But it seems like more of the issues seemed to happen when Rick Berman was involved, at least in the TNG, DS9 era:
Rick Berman certainly worked to pull down the franchise. To be clear, though, Ferengi society was not a sexist take. It was a negative depiction of a sexist society. You were never supposed to watch an episode and come away thinking “man, those Ferengi really have it all figured out.”
You were never supposed to watch an episode and come away thinking “man, those Ferengi really have it all figured out.”
Yeah. Certainly.
It still stands out as a weird artistic choice, I think. We see this extreme take on sexism, but it’s a long time before we get a female Ferengi protagonist shown overcoming it.
Yeah, that’s definitely fair to say. I don’t think we saw any Ferengi women until DS9. TNG tried to introduce them as the new big bad in season 1, but when that kind of fizzled they really didn’t seem to have any solid ideas to develop them.
Depends on where they’re hypocritical or not. In real life, queer culture is entirely about making less restrictive laws regarding morality. The “small government” types should absolutely be locking arms at Pride Parades, but the Pride Gadsden is a rarity.
You think an empire that is extremely sexist to the point where they let a Ferengi be a leader of a noble house before a woman would be super accepting of trans issues?
…Yes? Because I stated exactly why I feel it fits with the Klingon ethos? Outside of combat, Klingons don’t generally favor deception, so why would a trans woman trying to pretend she’s a man not be looked at as dishonorable? Besides, Grilka couldn’t be the leader of the House because (as far as the Klingons knew) Kozak died in combat which meant Quark had the right to be the head of the House. Had Quark admitted upfront that Kozak had gotten drunk and fallen on his own blade, he never would have been involved and Grilka would have been granted the House.
In the real world, it is entirely possible to be against gender but not sex (c.f. TERFs like J.K. Rowling) or to be against sex but not gender (c.f. how many gender reassignment surgeries are performed in Iran, where it’s culturally better to be a woman or trans-woman than it is to be a gay man).
A huge part of the Klingon civil war arc is that the Duras family had no male heir. They eventually just dig one out of the brothels. At no point is it considered a viable option for either of the sisters to openly lead.
When Worf wanted to get married to Jadzia, they needed Martok’s wife’s approval due to the extremely stratified gender roles. When they had trouble getting said approval, Martok basically said that it wasn’t his place to interfere and sort it out himself. A huge portion of the reason why Jadzia had trouble getting approval is because she doesn’t behave like you’d expect a Klingon women to. All of this friction is in spite of the fact that Martok is a lot more open minded than most other Klingons.
Klingon society is regressive in a million other ways. They are governed by a glorified aristocracy. Worf installed Martok as chancellor by killing Gowron in a casual death battle. They advised crusher to help Worf kill himselves when he was paralyzed. The society is still fairly religious. A popular coming of age ceremony involves repeatedly getting shocked with pain sticks.
All of that’s just off the top of my head. There’s probably more. The idea that Klingon society is ass backwards in a million different ways but super tolerant of trans individuals stretches all belief and feels more akin to Tumblr headcanon than any actual reality.
My dude, your lame Tumblr insult aside, you’re still conflating discrimination of sex with discrimination of gender. Yes Klingon society is sexist in a lot of ways, but that doesn’t necessitate that they’re genderist too, because 1) despite what conservative ideology believes sex and gender aren’t the same thing, and 2) you’re attempting to square that circle using human logic with a species that isn’t. I gave you an example of each situation that exists on our current planet as is.
You’re also ignoring that L’Rell was Chancellor of the Empire and also that lots of female Klingons are shown in the military same as the males.
There is absolutely nothing in Klingon society that indicates that they’d be accepting of trans individuals. There are a million things in Klingon society that, while not explicitly anti trans, heavily hint at a society that would not be accepting.
I feel like you like Star Trek and want every aspect of it to be explicitly pro trans. However instead of just acknowledging that Klingons were portrayed as extremely regressive anyway, you invent a headcanon and grasp as straws to justify it.
She may have overacted. Once Gowron became aware of the situation, he addressed her directly and assured her we would honor her rights to the house. She may have not needed The Bravest Ferengi to get involved, but it didn’t help her being understood.
I have a suspicion that Klingons would consider not being your true self dishonorable, so of course they’d be accepting of trans people.
edit: It looks like there’s a Romulan petaQ among us. Your bigotry will not serve you well here.
Probably. I also believe that they would truly honor someone who went through a difficult, painful journey in order to realize - and become - who they really are.
They would sing songs of their struggle and subsequent conquest and glory!
Some day, we’ll get a Trek series that treats LGBTQ folx as people rather than set-pieces, and, perhaps, we will hear those songs…
What’s SNW and even DSC then? I’m confused how main characters like Ortegas and Stamets are “set-pieces”? I do really hope they bring back Captain Angel though, what a great baddie (you love) haha.
Super excited to see more ofc, even a captain =]
Well, when they only exist to die for plot points and their only character developent exists to service the convenience of the moment— yeah, clearly these characters are only important as a matter of plot convenience, not as actual people.
It’s cheap, shitty, and shallow. And if you don’t see that for what it is, I feel very bad for you. but I feel worse for all of the LGBTQ audience members who are fooled into thinking that this is progress. It’s fucking trash.
Trek has only evolved from “lgbtq people are invisible” to “lgbtq people are expendable for the sake of ratings”
They only acknowledge us to murder us horribly in order to yank tears.
I AM NOT A PLOT POINT
…
…Seven of Nine and Rafi got their own command. Stamets and Culber remained a loving couple throughout (apart from Culver’s unfortunate temporary death) and adopted a young enby who had their own growth throughout the series while everyone respected their pronouns. Nurse Chapel is a bi woman who withdrew her application to a fellowship at the Vulcan Science Council, essentially telling them “your fellowship ain’t ready for *me*”.
I wouldn’t consider their queer identities to be conveniences or their character arcs to be simple plot points by any stretch of the imagination. retconning Sulu as gay? Maybe. Agender computer genius aliens stealing the ship or a third-gender alien’s romantic encounter with Riker? Okay, sure.
But the latest Trek serieses put queer people in space and haven’t been using them as lip service or exclusively as minor supporting characters. They’ve been full-fledged characters whose queer identities the audience was been made aware of and shown that, in the future, the bigots lose because their queerness doesn’t define them…it is just a part of who they are. They are masters of their own destinies.
(That being said, as much as I hate the lip service stuff, I do wish they’d have thrown us a bone with Detmer and Owosekun because c’mon…enough queerbaiting already.)
Oh, so it’s gonna make up for 60 years of shitting on queer people as long as Seven gets her own command.
Thanks for clearing that up
They’ve had out, badass prominent characters whose identities don’t define them in the last three live action Star Trek series, spitting in the face of the aNTi-wOkE haters who claim to love Star Trek but have only ever watched it through their own particular bigoted myopic lenses. What do you want them to do? Invent an actual time machine to do rewrites of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT?
The best way to apologize is to learn from your mistakes and do better in the future. The Star Trek show runners have taken this to heart, so I don’t know what more you want from them. (And I say this as a long-time, trans, leftist Star Trek fan.)
It certainly felt that way when they killed off (redacted for spoilers, but we all know who). It was cheap, and I’m glad they course corrected.
No matter your gender, the ridges of your brow and scars across your body shall never change. For Glory!
The Bat’leth knows no gender, only blood.
If anyone had a problem it might be the Ferengi watching (Fe)Males putting on clothes and doing business, but they’d just figure out a fine to levy and keep the latinum moving.
Gross. I don’t feel like looking up what this implies
Ferengi women are little more than slaves, and (apart from rare exceptions) not allowed to wear clothing.
Yeah I gathered that. Thanks for saving me the trouble of not looking it up. What 15 year old wrote that bs?
It’s worth pointing out that Grand Negus Rom led sweeping changes in Ferengi society largely inspired by the business acumen of his beloved Moogie and to a lesser extent his wife, Leta.
Hey, you have to credit Grand Nagus Zek for starting those reforms!
(Of course, that was also at the bidding of Moogie, but still.)
Ferengi were originally written to be a villain race when Roddenberry was directly running TNG, but they ended up testing comical to audiences, originally they were very 60’s free love era coded villains, wearing fur, using space whips, and of course absurdly misogynistic, They also sinffed around like animals, and hooted and hollarded very barbarically, and they weren’t into Rikeresk Polyamory AT ALL, the no clothes thing was a really early line of dialog where a ferengi says “disgusting, they cloth their women, inviting you to disrobe them” or some stupid shit like that. DS9 retconed the Ferengi A LOT, showing the first ferengi female, which was just a slightly shorter ferengi with smaller ears. I always kinda hoped they’d explain woman never leaving Ferengiar, or their homes by having them be very dysmorphic to the males, like huge and immobile physiologically, because aliens. but they mostly made ferengi a comic relief race, they’re kookie! but eventually Moogie controls ferenginar through two puppet Grand Negus. At first the culture shock causes a lot of backlash, but once clothing companies realize they can expend their markets by some 50% of local on planet business everyone stop caring.
That’s the stupidest shit I ever read.
I don’t know, but there’s a pattern of Rick Berman having something to do with sexist takes in Star Trek. It’s complicated, and there’s a lot of hear-say. And I think there ought to be some credit given all around for Trek generally being progressive for it’s time.
But it seems like more of the issues seemed to happen when Rick Berman was involved, at least in the TNG, DS9 era:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rick+berman+issues&ia=web
Rick Berman certainly worked to pull down the franchise. To be clear, though, Ferengi society was not a sexist take. It was a negative depiction of a sexist society. You were never supposed to watch an episode and come away thinking “man, those Ferengi really have it all figured out.”
Yeah. Certainly.
It still stands out as a weird artistic choice, I think. We see this extreme take on sexism, but it’s a long time before we get a female Ferengi protagonist shown overcoming it.
Yeah, that’s definitely fair to say. I don’t think we saw any Ferengi women until DS9. TNG tried to introduce them as the new big bad in season 1, but when that kind of fizzled they really didn’t seem to have any solid ideas to develop them.
Depends on where they’re hypocritical or not. In real life, queer culture is entirely about making less restrictive laws regarding morality. The “small government” types should absolutely be locking arms at Pride Parades, but the Pride Gadsden is a rarity.
As a “small government” anarcho socialist, I kind of agree but maybe not in all topics
Dealing with the Breen has made people a lot more open to the idea that gender is only a concept.
When you have an entire culture whose gender is hidden by armor they never remove…
You think an empire that is extremely sexist to the point where they let a Ferengi be a leader of a noble house before a woman would be super accepting of trans issues?
…Yes? Because I stated exactly why I feel it fits with the Klingon ethos? Outside of combat, Klingons don’t generally favor deception, so why would a trans woman trying to pretend she’s a man not be looked at as dishonorable? Besides, Grilka couldn’t be the leader of the House because (as far as the Klingons knew) Kozak died in combat which meant Quark had the right to be the head of the House. Had Quark admitted upfront that Kozak had gotten drunk and fallen on his own blade, he never would have been involved and Grilka would have been granted the House.
In the real world, it is entirely possible to be against gender but not sex (c.f. TERFs like J.K. Rowling) or to be against sex but not gender (c.f. how many gender reassignment surgeries are performed in Iran, where it’s culturally better to be a woman or trans-woman than it is to be a gay man).
That’s just one example. There are others.
A huge part of the Klingon civil war arc is that the Duras family had no male heir. They eventually just dig one out of the brothels. At no point is it considered a viable option for either of the sisters to openly lead.
When Worf wanted to get married to Jadzia, they needed Martok’s wife’s approval due to the extremely stratified gender roles. When they had trouble getting said approval, Martok basically said that it wasn’t his place to interfere and sort it out himself. A huge portion of the reason why Jadzia had trouble getting approval is because she doesn’t behave like you’d expect a Klingon women to. All of this friction is in spite of the fact that Martok is a lot more open minded than most other Klingons.
Klingon society is regressive in a million other ways. They are governed by a glorified aristocracy. Worf installed Martok as chancellor by killing Gowron in a casual death battle. They advised crusher to help Worf kill himselves when he was paralyzed. The society is still fairly religious. A popular coming of age ceremony involves repeatedly getting shocked with pain sticks.
All of that’s just off the top of my head. There’s probably more. The idea that Klingon society is ass backwards in a million different ways but super tolerant of trans individuals stretches all belief and feels more akin to Tumblr headcanon than any actual reality.
My dude, your lame Tumblr insult aside, you’re still conflating discrimination of sex with discrimination of gender. Yes Klingon society is sexist in a lot of ways, but that doesn’t necessitate that they’re genderist too, because 1) despite what conservative ideology believes sex and gender aren’t the same thing, and 2) you’re attempting to square that circle using human logic with a species that isn’t. I gave you an example of each situation that exists on our current planet as is.
You’re also ignoring that L’Rell was Chancellor of the Empire and also that lots of female Klingons are shown in the military same as the males.
There is absolutely nothing in Klingon society that indicates that they’d be accepting of trans individuals. There are a million things in Klingon society that, while not explicitly anti trans, heavily hint at a society that would not be accepting.
I feel like you like Star Trek and want every aspect of it to be explicitly pro trans. However instead of just acknowledging that Klingons were portrayed as extremely regressive anyway, you invent a headcanon and grasp as straws to justify it.
She may have overacted. Once Gowron became aware of the situation, he addressed her directly and assured her we would honor her rights to the house. She may have not needed The Bravest Ferengi to get involved, but it didn’t help her being understood.