The Palestinian Red Crescent said on Friday that one person was killed and 28 others were wounded in a shooting by Israeli forces at Al-Quds hospital in Gaza, the organisation said.
However, some criticisms they use to make the case for Apartheid I find unfair:
Refusing Palestinians access to lands that were taken from them. (This curiously seems to omit the failed declarations of war against Israel, a major reason why these lands were lost and never returned, or the fact that these parties are currently belligerent. Letting them in while they are actively trying to kill them would be stupid.)
Making Palestinians live in enclaves like Gaza, (whose situation is clearly a consequence of national belligerence and not racism.)
Palestinians within Israel with full rights only exist to provide cover for apartheid. (…damned if you do, damned if you don’t.)
Characterizing Gaza as occupied even after withdrawal, and suggesting that therefore Israel should keep providing them with supply lines even as Hamas attacks and tries to genocide them. (Absurd.)
Gaza/West Bank cannot vote in Israeli elections. (They should let the people trying to kill them and outnumber them elect their leaders? K.)
Demonstrations in Palestinian territories are illegal. (That’s because they historically kill a lot of people.)
Water rights from Oslo agreement. (Well, they agreed to it!)
Restrictions on Palestinian movements. Forcible separation via roads, checkpoints, walls… (Palestine is still a belligerent nation)
There are no flawless good guys here, only shades of grey. While there’s definitely room for improvement, all evidence indicates Israel treats Palestinians better than how things would be were the roles reversed. Palestine explicitly calls for genocide, and denial of Jewish rights, both popular sentiments. They too are theocratic, but far more hostile to minorities. They have a path to end all this through diplomacy anytime they want and remove most of the repressive conditions above, provided they are willing to make concessions. Without willingness for diplomatic solutions, Israel will continue to be driven to use the stick rather than the carrot and the realpolitik military situation does not favor Palestine.
Characterizing Gaza as occupied even after withdrawal, and suggesting that therefore Israel should keep providing them with supply lines even as Hamas attacks and tries to genocide them. (Absurd.)
It’s blockaded, and you know this. That’s occupied. You’re intentionally muddying the waters. Your categorizing of them being “national belligerents” is both infanitlizing and completely misses why they might be that way. It’s for, like, real reasons, like an unjust occupation and explusion.
Palestinians within Israel with full rights only exist to provide cover for apartheid.
The video explicitly talks about the people in Israel proper for the majority of it, the home demolitions and unequal treatment. You’re just wrong here.
Gaza/West Bank cannot vote in Israeli elections. (They should let the people trying to kill them and outnumber them elect their leaders? K.)
Sounds like you’re just saying “Great Replacement” demographics shit but with the local Arab population, fearing a demographic majority that might act in the same cruel ways back. A myth by the way.
Demonstrations in Palestinian territories are illegal. (That’s because they historically kill a lot of people.)
“The only democracy in the middle east” lmao. Straight fascist apologia.
Water rights from Oslo agreement. (Well, they agreed to it!)
How much choice did they have really? And the video even states they get less than the agreement (and it’s contaminated).
Restrictions on Palestinian movements. Forcible separation via roads, checkpoints, walls… (Palestine is still a belligerent nation)
I WONDER WHY
Alright man, it’s clear you either aren’t arguing in good faith, are a paid shill, are a fascist, have brain worms, or some combination of all four. It’s obvious you can’t be helped at this point.
Thanks for the link, I learned some things. There are a lot of legitimate criticisms, and some that I don’t think hold water.
Israel has been a theocracy ever since they declared themselves to be the homeland of the Jews. As there are many lineages of Jews, and religious converts of any background qualify for Israeli citizenship one must assume they are referring to the religion and not the ethnicity when they made this declaration. A better analog than the US declaring itself the home of the white people, would be if Vatican City declared itself to be home of the Catholics, (and had a much bigger population, some of whom weren’t.) Still not great but different in some very relevant ways. This matters because the video then goes on to build a case from this faulty premise that Israel is an apartheid state because it employs systemic racial oppression and discrimination. However, this internal legalized discrimination doesn’t seem to be racial at all, in fact they have laws explicitly forbidding racism. Within Israel, what legal discrimination exists seems to be religious, or political and from the examples provided, manifests itself as:
Right of return only applying to Jews (religious)
Outlawing political parties and candidates who deny that Israel is a democratic state and a home to the Jews, (probably a response to Sharia and Palestinian attempts to deny Jews equality in their imagined one-state solution. Political and religious.)
Withholding government funds from organizations that commemorate the Nakba, the “remember the Alamo!”-like rallying cry of their enemy (political)
Jews are allowed to marry individuals from the West Bank or Gaza, Israeli Palestinians are not; many Palestinian spouses are prevented from living together in Israel (probably due to fears of anti-Jewish belligerents getting into the country through marriage and being outnumbered via fertility. Political and religious.)
Inequities via the military court system and military administration of territories (political)
Theocracy isn’t great but not exactly racial discrimination either, although since ethnicity and religion overlap so much on the Palestinian side of this conflict I suppose it’s easy to use it as a proxy there. Less so on the Israeli side, which is comprised of many Jewish and Arab ethnicities.
Then there’s also extralegal discrimination, something most countries have to contend with, only moreso here. Citizens of countries at war are often unsurprisingly prejudiced against the groups that they are at war with, like how many Americans freaked out and became anti-Islamic after 9/11. I can only imagine how much worse that would have become if the attacks against the US were ongoing for a century. This generational hatred and cycle of violence has gone on so long in Israel that there certainly seems to be many social discrimination issues to be addressed, at all levels of society. Certainly among police and right-wing politicians. Some examples of inequities that are not because of current laws:
There are still generational socioeconomic consequences to systemic discrimination of the past.
Accusations that there are prejudiced people on public land use committees who interpret rules about culture and community standards in a discriminatory way, some who do so explicitly.
Bibi seems like a little Trump working with the Likud party to intimidate voters. (Fuck them. It’ll be great to see them kicked out of power.)
Unequal and often inhumane treatment of suspects and prisoners by the legal system.
On 12 September 2005, the final day of the Israeli withdrawal, international politicians such as France’s Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy and Jordan’s Deputy Prime Minister Marwan Muasher warned of Gaza being turned into an open-air prison.[24][25] Four days later, Mahmoud Abbas stated to the UN General Assembly: “It is incumbent upon Israel to turn this unilateral withdrawal into a positive step in a real way. We must quickly resolve all outstanding major issues, including the Rafah border crossing with Egypt, the airport and the seaport, as well as the establishment of a direct link between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Without this, Gaza will remain a huge prison.”[26]
Following the disengagement, human rights groups alleged that Israel frequently blockaded Gaza in order to apply pressure on the population “in response to political developments or attacks by armed groups in Gaza on Israeli civilians or soldiers”.[27] The special envoy of the Quartet James Wolfensohn noted that “Gaza had been effectively sealed off from the outside world since the Israeli disengagement [August–September 2005], and the humanitarian and economic consequences for the Palestinian population were profound. There were already food shortages. Palestinian workers and traders to Israel were unable to cross the border”.[28]
On 15 January 2006, the Karni crossing – the sole point for exports of goods from Gaza – was closed completely for all kinds of exports.[29][30] The greenhouse project suffered a huge blow, as the harvest of high-value crops, meant to be exported for Europe via Israel, was essentially lost (with a small part of the harvest donated to local institutions).[30][31][32] Moreover, closing of Karni cut off the so-far resilient textile and furniture industries in Gaza from their source of income.[33] Starting February 2006, the Karni crossing was sporadically open for exports, but the amount of goods allowed to be exported was minuscule compared to the amount of goods imported[34] (which, in turn, barely supported Gaza’s needs).[35][34] Between 1 January and 11 May, more than 12,700 tonnes of produce were harvested in Gaza’s greenhouses, almost all of it destined for export; out of it, only 1,600 tonnes (less than 13%) were actually exported.
-Wikipedia. For context, Hamas won the elections on 25 January 2006.
How dare they contain the belligerent monoethnic nation that’s actively trying to genocide them. What jerks, must be racism, or apartheid, or some other shocking term you want to call their self defense.
The Arabs that stayed in Israel through the nakba seem to be doing pretty well, gee, maybe this situation isn’t about race after all, but rather it’s about safety like they have always claimed it is.
How dare they contain the belligerent monoethnic nation that’s actively trying to genocide them.
They just want to return to their homes they were violently expelled from. Yes, it would be within their rights to use violence to expel the literal theives from their homes.
What jerks, must be racism, or apartheid, or some other shocking term you want to call their self defense.
These terms are true. It is a shocking situation, especially Gaza. Israel bombed their airport, won’t let them go too far off the coast, walled them off, control everything about what goes into Gaza (hell, they couldn’t get pasta at one point), 97% of the water they get isn’t potable. The food they do receive is calorie tracked and once described by Israel as “putting the Palestinians on a diet”. They can’t get concrete to rebuild shit Israel blows up regularly. That shit is fucking bleak.
but rather it’s about safety like they have always claimed it is.
It is, the oppressor is trying to keep the land they stole from the oppressed. It also hasnt stopped, and it’s obvious that it’s a continuous project. The ones who are there now know they’re on borrowed time and many will resist.
I’ll just mention that literally hundreds of thousands of people were expelled from Palestine. You should read more about the Nakba before saying stuff like that.
What do you think is more likely, Israelis are horrible cartoonish monsters who love attacking hospitals, or maybe, just maybe, all the many reports about Hamas actually using hospitals, mosques, and schoolyards to shield them from reprisals have some validity?
Here. While this information is available in all kinds of places, here’s a good video essay for a look into what’s happening in Israel / Palestine.
https://youtu.be/jBHAitSKtVs?si=eTe_7ZjgddQAKv2k
You may be uncomfortable grappling with the reality of it, and that’s alright.
Continued… (2 of 2)
However, some criticisms they use to make the case for Apartheid I find unfair:
There are no flawless good guys here, only shades of grey. While there’s definitely room for improvement, all evidence indicates Israel treats Palestinians better than how things would be were the roles reversed. Palestine explicitly calls for genocide, and denial of Jewish rights, both popular sentiments. They too are theocratic, but far more hostile to minorities. They have a path to end all this through diplomacy anytime they want and remove most of the repressive conditions above, provided they are willing to make concessions. Without willingness for diplomatic solutions, Israel will continue to be driven to use the stick rather than the carrot and the realpolitik military situation does not favor Palestine.
It’s blockaded, and you know this. That’s occupied. You’re intentionally muddying the waters. Your categorizing of them being “national belligerents” is both infanitlizing and completely misses why they might be that way. It’s for, like, real reasons, like an unjust occupation and explusion.
The video explicitly talks about the people in Israel proper for the majority of it, the home demolitions and unequal treatment. You’re just wrong here.
Sounds like you’re just saying “Great Replacement” demographics shit but with the local Arab population, fearing a demographic majority that might act in the same cruel ways back. A myth by the way.
“The only democracy in the middle east” lmao. Straight fascist apologia.
How much choice did they have really? And the video even states they get less than the agreement (and it’s contaminated).
I WONDER WHY
Alright man, it’s clear you either aren’t arguing in good faith, are a paid shill, are a fascist, have brain worms, or some combination of all four. It’s obvious you can’t be helped at this point.
(1 of 2)
Thanks for the link, I learned some things. There are a lot of legitimate criticisms, and some that I don’t think hold water.
Israel has been a theocracy ever since they declared themselves to be the homeland of the Jews. As there are many lineages of Jews, and religious converts of any background qualify for Israeli citizenship one must assume they are referring to the religion and not the ethnicity when they made this declaration. A better analog than the US declaring itself the home of the white people, would be if Vatican City declared itself to be home of the Catholics, (and had a much bigger population, some of whom weren’t.) Still not great but different in some very relevant ways. This matters because the video then goes on to build a case from this faulty premise that Israel is an apartheid state because it employs systemic racial oppression and discrimination. However, this internal legalized discrimination doesn’t seem to be racial at all, in fact they have laws explicitly forbidding racism. Within Israel, what legal discrimination exists seems to be religious, or political and from the examples provided, manifests itself as:
Theocracy isn’t great but not exactly racial discrimination either, although since ethnicity and religion overlap so much on the Palestinian side of this conflict I suppose it’s easy to use it as a proxy there. Less so on the Israeli side, which is comprised of many Jewish and Arab ethnicities.
Then there’s also extralegal discrimination, something most countries have to contend with, only moreso here. Citizens of countries at war are often unsurprisingly prejudiced against the groups that they are at war with, like how many Americans freaked out and became anti-Islamic after 9/11. I can only imagine how much worse that would have become if the attacks against the US were ongoing for a century. This generational hatred and cycle of violence has gone on so long in Israel that there certainly seems to be many social discrimination issues to be addressed, at all levels of society. Certainly among police and right-wing politicians. Some examples of inequities that are not because of current laws:
Continued…
The same folks operating an apartheid and open air prison? The same ones that did the Nakba?
Yes, absolutely. The Israelis are mega racist
An open-air prison of Gaza’s own making, mind you. Probably an unwise idea to attack Egypt–whoops.
Stop spreading misinformation. The blockade started before Hamas took charge; it started at the same time as the Israeli disengagement ended.
Your source?
-Wikipedia. For context, Hamas won the elections on 25 January 2006.
may you link the article? I’d like to read it for myself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
That isn’t my point though. My point is that Gaza’s seclusion is from their own doing.
If Palestinian Terrorists never attacked Eygpt or used its humanitarian crossings to smuggle weapons and resources–Then Gaza wouldn’t be in its predicament of being a prison.
How dare they contain the belligerent monoethnic nation that’s actively trying to genocide them. What jerks, must be racism, or apartheid, or some other shocking term you want to call their self defense.
The Arabs that stayed in Israel through the nakba seem to be doing pretty well, gee, maybe this situation isn’t about race after all, but rather it’s about safety like they have always claimed it is.
Removed by mod
Do you even read the comments you’re responding to?
They just want to return to their homes they were violently expelled from. Yes, it would be within their rights to use violence to expel the literal theives from their homes.
These terms are true. It is a shocking situation, especially Gaza. Israel bombed their airport, won’t let them go too far off the coast, walled them off, control everything about what goes into Gaza (hell, they couldn’t get pasta at one point), 97% of the water they get isn’t potable. The food they do receive is calorie tracked and once described by Israel as “putting the Palestinians on a diet”. They can’t get concrete to rebuild shit Israel blows up regularly. That shit is fucking bleak.
It is, the oppressor is trying to keep the land they stole from the oppressed. It also hasnt stopped, and it’s obvious that it’s a continuous project. The ones who are there now know they’re on borrowed time and many will resist.
I’ll just mention that literally hundreds of thousands of people were expelled from Palestine. You should read more about the Nakba before saying stuff like that.