Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders said Sunday he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible in the Israel-Hamas war with “an organization like Hamas” involved.

“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.

  • @kittenzrulz123@lemmy.world
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    1221 year ago

    I don’t think peace is possible when one side is holding the other in an open air prison and giving them only the amount of calories needed to not die (after the war started even that was suspended)

    • GodlessCommie
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      651 year ago

      Stop calling it a prison, prisons are for convicted criminals, Palestinian’s only crime is being Palestinian. These were open air concentration camps, they are now open air extermination camps

      • @PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Have you ever seen Gaza? I thought it looked more like a city.

        Is “open air concentration camps” now a code word for dense urban city?

        image

        Honestly this looks like a pretty nice city to me.

    • @NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
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      1 year ago

      Does that change anything?

      Hamas is a terrorist organization with strong ties to Iran. We’ve already seen what happens when terrorist groups destabilize countries and take control. Syria is an ongoing testament to that. So is Afghanistan

      Are the Israeli Government’s sins the reason why Hamas is in power? The extent is arguable, but it would be a lie to outright say “no”.

      But… does that change anything?

      Hamas is the power in Gaza. Any form of concessions that don’t involve the destruction of Hamas will be considered a win because the Palestinian people have been held in an open air prison for decades. And that will just lead to Hamas becoming more powerful.

      If someone was abused horrifically as a child and decided to get a gun and take it out on others, what do you do? In a just world, you get them the help that they need. But in any world, the first thing you do is take the gun away before they can hurt anyone else.

      What that means in this situation? I don’t know. Short of external military intervention, the Israeli government is not going to stand down. And I for one don’t want the US and NATO to fuck around in yet another middle eastern country for another two decades only to leave it considerably worse than we found it.

      • @NewDark
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        291 year ago

        You realize Israel is controlling the prison in reality, right?

        Hamas doesn’t shoot Palestinians that go to far off the coast, Israel does.

        Hamas didn’t erect a huge border wall around Gaza, Israel did.

        Hamas doesn’t control the supply of food, water, and goods into Gaza. Israel does.

        Who controls Gaza?

        • @bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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          181 year ago

          WRT the wall at least:

          Hamas’s goal from securing power in 2007 has been rejecting the two state solution and destroying Israel leading to many many attacks since then so, maybe securing the border isn’t an insane idea? I mean, fuck all good the wall did recently but still.

          Hamas doesn’t control the supply of food, water, and goods into Gaza. Israel does.

          Slightly amend that one, Egypt also supports the blockade. That being said, it’s not the fault of all the civilians in Gaza that people voted in 2007 to let a terrorist organization take over and things went poorly because of it. This blockade needs to end. Humanitarian aid needs to be able to get to Gaza.

          • @NewDark
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            111 year ago

            I’m not going to get fully bogged down in the semantics, but Israel still basically controls the Egypt border.

            The US forced a vote, didn’t like the outcome, attempted to coup Hamas, and failed. Also, if Hamas is so bad (which they are in many respects), why does Israel fund them and explicitly has a policy of only interacting with them as being the legitimate government?

            Easy, they want an unsympathetic enemy that does not want peace. They want to continue the project of taking the rest of Israel for the ethnostate.

          • NoneOfUrBusiness
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            -41 year ago

            WRT to your correction about the wall: Hamas’s attacks aren’t because they reject the two-state solution; they’re because of the blockade. The blockade started in 2005 (not 2007 as is popularly believed; that’s when the blockade moved into full force) before Hamas was elected. They withdrew and blockaded the border.

            The idea that Israel blockaded Gaza because they of Hamas terrorist attacks is basically Israeli propaganda.

            • @bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Yes and no, there was a lesser blockade starting in 2005, that’s correct. Then halfway into 2007 after violence broke out between Hamas and Fatah which resulted in the first of Hamas’s civilian executions in Gaza, the current, and more draconian, blockade was instituted.

              Which then, you are correct, Hamas responded to the new restrictions by committing another war crime of firing missiles into urban areas.

              That’s why it’s yes and no, the original blockade no, the much stricter one that is in effect today was however a direct result of Hamas’s first war crime after being voted into office.

              Like quick edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

              This is what caused the blockade that was supposed to be a temporary one to shift to a draconian ongoing one. War crimes.

              • @PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
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                01 year ago

                That Wikipedia article is a mess that sounds like it was written by a high school student. He said, she said, with very few citations.

                • @stevehobbes@lemmy.world
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                  31 year ago

                  That’s basically the entire history of the region and current conflict. Everyone is lying, IDF and supporters, Hamas and supporters. You have to treat all of it as the propaganda it is.

                  There is no one with clean hands over there.

              • NoneOfUrBusiness
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                -31 year ago

                That’s why it’s yes and no, the original blockade no, the much stricter one that is in effect today was however a direct result of Hamas’s first war crime after being voted into office.

                Which was a result of the first blockade. You say lesser, and while it was more lenient that doesn’t mean it was fine. Israeli actions in late 2005/2006 destroyed the Gazan economy, and had large destructive effects on the West Bank’s.

                • @bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I never said it was fine, but no Hamas’s first war crime in Gaza after taking control was not because of the blockade. They straight up publicly executed their political opponents in the Palestinian Authority. You can’t do that and not be labeled terrorists.

                  But yeah their first war crime in office wasn’t even against Israel, it was against fellow Palestinians.

                  • NoneOfUrBusiness
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                    21 year ago

                    Oh you’re talking about that. Yeah that’s just indefensible, but I don’t see how that meant a permanent blockade was the right move. It was nothing short of pure tyranny.

                    Also, how was the blockade supposed to be temporary? It lasted for more than a year and a half and showed no signs of being lifted. It only seems to me like Israel took the chance to tighten the blockade.

          • @ferralcat@monyet.cc
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            -61 year ago

            Hamas and Palestine have no power. Their rejecting or accepting any solution is kinda a ridiculous proposition. It’s an officer offering an inmate a banana. Just give it to them, there’s no need to ask.

        • @conquer4@lemmy.world
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          61 year ago

          At least for #2, you might want to do more research into why hamas doesn’t have prisons in Gaza…

        • @NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
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          -11 year ago

          And what does that do about the violent terrorists who have already raped and murdered anyone who had the misfortune of being nearby and have repeatedly said they intend to do the same again?

          How does that not increase their power?

          • @intensely_human@lemm.ee
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            01 year ago

            All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.

            Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful

          • @intensely_human@lemm.ee
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            01 year ago

            All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.

            Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful

          • WuTang
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            -41 year ago

            you know, you can add raping babies and eating them in your fairy tales. coward you are !

          • @electric_nan@lemmy.ml
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            -41 year ago

            It just might force Israel to fucking negotiate the future in good faith, if it no longer felt as if it could continue slow-walking the removal of an entire people from their lands. You are so quick to paint Palestinian violent as barbaric and incomprehensible, yet you ignore the larger scale violence that Israel has been inflicting on Palestine for decades. Bombs from above, collective punishment, punitive control over vital resources, imprisonment and torture of even children! For what? To make more space to house someone descended from ancestors who left that land a thousand years ago?

            • @NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
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              1 year ago

              No. I painted what Hamas did as violent and barbaric and reprehensible. Rape and child killing tends to trigger that.

              And you’ll note I even pointed out that a good chunk of why Hamas is in power is BECAUSE of the IDF

              Again, we have been down this road. Syria is a hellscape. Afghanistan is a hellscape. When terrorists take control of a nation, it is the people who suffer. And regardless of why they are in power right now: they can’t continue to be in power if the actual welfare of the Palestinian people matters at all.

              But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?

              • @electric_nan@lemmy.ml
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                -21 year ago

                Terrorists are in control of Israel. But then, my country does have a long history of financing terrorists, including in those other countries you mention. But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?

    • @Son_of_dad@lemmy.world
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      -191 year ago

      Ok are you talking about Hamas or the Palestinian people? Cause I keep being told they’re different, and that Hamas doesn’t represent Palestinians, yet here you are talking about them as if they’re the same. So which is it? Cause you’re asking me to feel bad for Hamas fighters? Cause I won’t.

      • @kittenzrulz123@lemmy.world
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        381 year ago

        I didn’t mention Hamas, I said Israel is oppressing Palestinians and you should feel bad for the nearly 4,000 children that died.

        • @Pasta4u@lemmy.world
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          -391 year ago

          Hamas is oppressing Palestinians and are responsible for the 4000 children that died. Non hamas Palestinians should try fleeing the country or fighting back against hamas so they can be free

          • BabyWah
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            1 year ago

            Fight back? Lol. After being born in an open air prison.

            After being born into oppression.

            After being told they’re nothing more than animals.

            After being thrown in prison as a kid for decades because they threw stones at a fucking tank.

            After being slowly starved to death.

            After being evicted from their lands and homes by the Israeli military, AND being mocked by the very settlers that take their homes from them right in front of their faces at the same time.

            After their parents, children, siblings, aunts and uncles, their entire fucking bloodline is being bombed to death.

            After watching the whole world just stand there and watch them being slaughtered just because Israel has more money, so they can lobby?

            After weeks of Israel secretly lobbying the EU and US to displace all Palestinians to the Sinai peninsula, you know, a fucking HUGE part of another sovereign country like that’s very normal, all the while killing thousands of people for a little piece of their land? Now I understand why the Egyptian president Sisi told the EU to take in Gazans themselves, if they care so much about human rights.

            After kids literally see organs and body parts flying around because of the bombing?

            After having no access to water, so no drinking water, toilets, showers, dehumanising them. Opening one water source because of UN pressure and then a few days later bombing that specific water source…

            After having no food for a month now.

            After threatening the UN to teach them a lesson because they asked for a humanitarian pause.

            After killing journalists and their entire family in precision attacks, so they can’t report what’s really going on?

            After killing UN workers?

            Right now they’ve also run out of medicine. One patient’s lungs had to be rinsed with ginger. They use effing ginger as an antibiotic/antiseptic. One kids leg had been blown off and they had to operate without anesthesia…

            You want these people to fight? LOL.

            There’s really no way Israel comes out of this as the ‘good guy’. The atrocities they committed and still are committing in less than a month’s time, has made the world forget about 7/10. THAT says something, because we thought THAT day was bad.

            • @mwguy@infosec.pub
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              11 year ago

              After being evicted from their lands and homes by the Israeli military, AND being mocked by the very settlers that take their homes from them right in front of their faces at the same time.

              Actually in Gaza they have the 1967 borders and all the settlers were forcibly evicted in 2004/2005 (some at gunpoint). You’re thinking of the West Bank, we’re talking about Gaza.

              A lot of this rant doesn’t really apply to Gaza.

            • @Pasta4u@lemmy.world
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              -271 year ago

              Yes fight back like so many oppressed people have done before. Or flee to a place that doesn’t oppress you.

              • @kurwa@lemmy.world
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                151 year ago

                Clearly you didn’t read any of that. Where can they go? They are essentially trapped. And of course they have to leave their homes when they’re being oppressed.

                • @Pasta4u@lemmy.world
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                  -61 year ago

                  They are surrounded on 3 sides woth places they can go. Into the water to flee , down into Egypt or up.into Jordan by land.

              • @QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world
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                201 year ago

                44% of their population is under the age of 15. Name one revolution that was lead by an army of 7 year olds. If by some miracle you can, name one that was lead against a terrorist organization. Not some rinky-dink operation either. Terrorists that were, I don’t know, funded by a country like Iran?

                  • @havokdj@lemmy.world
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                    01 year ago

                    Let’s be honest here, you removed it because you don’t agree with what I said, and used a word that I didn’t use in an ableist context as a reason to remove it.

          • Flying Squid
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            161 year ago

            Pretty hard to flee the country when the two countries on either side of you won’t let you in. So how are they supposed to do it?

              • Flying Squid
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                51 year ago

                The somethings are Israel, who won’t let them out and Egypt, who won’t let them out. There’s no other place for them to go. Look at a map.

                • @Pasta4u@lemmy.world
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                  -51 year ago

                  You should go and look at a map the medterranean sea is its other border. They can leave by sea. Cubans do it , African do it to reach Italy and so on. So it’s very possible to leave the country

                  • NoneOfUrBusiness
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                    1 year ago

                    Setting aside the whole part about you supporting the genocide of Palestinians, you MFing clown the Israeli blockade is also by sea.

            • @Meowoem@sh.itjust.works
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              -171 year ago

              Honestly if anyone actually cared about the people there’s loads of places that could go, I’m sure Israel would even help fund the building of a city on Saudi Arabia or Iran, plenty of space and cities are getting built in the region all the time. They could all live nice happy lives

              But no one will let that happen of course because it’s not about the people it’s about the land, and not even land with resources - land the people funding all this have no intention of ever visiting, but they don’t want Israel to have it.

            • @Pasta4u@lemmy.world
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              -211 year ago

              Literally anywhere. Have you looked at the people illegally crossing the usa southern border? There are Russians and idians. They can escape almost anywhere they have access to flight through then ocean or land borders

          • UltraMagnus0001
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            111 year ago

            oppressed people went with the extreme as they had no hope of freedom and anger built up from their oppression.

          • The fact that you’re citing Gaza having a coastline as evidence that it’s not an open-air prison, without mentioning that Isreal controls those waters and does not allow Palestinian use of them (aside from small-scale fishing) tell me that you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.

            Educate yourself before telling people to educate themselves. You’re spouting bullshit and look a fool.

          • @kittenzrulz123@lemmy.world
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            161 year ago

            Tell me what Israeli news do you watch? I personally watch i24 and regularly keep up with Israeli politics. Do you even know what Kahanism is, who Ben Gavir is, or why so many people (myself included) despise the far right crime minister BB?

              • @kittenzrulz123@lemmy.world
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                121 year ago

                I’m not simply an American who decided to take interest in Israel, I’m Jewish and regularly speak to Israelis. I have heard them openly talking about how civilian deaths are justified and how killing Arabs is ok. Nearly every day I have to suffer through their horrific propaganda. I understand I have everything to gain yet I refuse to gain from the suffering of 9,000 civilian deaths.

          • Arlaerion
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            01 year ago

            The Likud Party hat that phrase in it’s founding charter: “between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

            Yes, it was used earlier by the PLO but back then the meaning was more like “take back what was ours”. It was not against the jews, they were there before the founding of Israel. It was against the forced taking of land by creating the state of Israel.

            Extremist forces took it further, especially Hamas. But by then the sitation was already complicated enough for an easy solution…

              • Arlaerion
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                21 year ago

                I am not your enemy, I’m taking part in a discussion. Also this is my first post in this thread, stop talking like I personally offended you.

                I explicitly wrote about the state of Israel and not the Jewish people. So the timeframe of my argument the founding of Israel and the decades after that. Jewish europeans settled there since the end of the 19th century, and for almost half a century it worked. The phrase started being used after that.

      • NoneOfUrBusiness
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        101 year ago

        Surprise: It’s not. They’re giving them less than the amount they need not to starve.

          • NoneOfUrBusiness
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            1 year ago

            So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?

            Their military occupiers, Israel. Or maybe the people blockading them and actually controlling how much aid goes in and how much they can import (with their meagre economy since they’re not allowed to export their goods), which is also Israel. Maybe the people who actually created the current situation and actively worked to maintain it so Palestinians can’t have peace—you guessed it, Israel.

            • @mwguy@infosec.pub
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              01 year ago

              Their military occupiers, Israel.

              Aside for some areas in North Gaza, Israel doesn’t occupy the Gaza Strip, and hasn’t for decades.

            • @takeda@lemmy.world
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              -21 year ago

              Egypt also could provide help, but for some “strange reason” they do not want. All the countries that cheered on October 7th and supposedly support Palestine, won’t provide any help beyond weapons. They don’t give damn, their goal is to kill Jews, and if Palestinians die in the process, hey that’s “even better”.

              • @idiomaddict@feddit.de
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                61 year ago

                How about this: It’s solely unrwas responsibility, but anyone who specifically bombs unrwa resources has to take over fully?

                • @mwguy@infosec.pub
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                  11 year ago

                  How about this. It’s the responsibility of the government in charge, Hamas to consider the feeding and care of it’s citizens as a part of its war plan with its neighbors.

                  • @idiomaddict@feddit.de
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                    11 year ago

                    Given that the plans that government arranged for are being thwarted by Israel, it seems they are taking steps to reassert their ability to feed their people. I don’t think that’s the best solution here, that Hamas keeps attacking Israel, so I’m looking elsewhere. If you’re content with the way Hamas handles things, by all means, leave them with no humanitarian support or other options.