Israel=The Israeli govt. in basically every conversation within this context. Trying to say “but both right?!” When that’s what everyone has been saying from the start, makes you look like you’re acting in bad faith.
That you’re an Israeli shill? I was trying to be nice about it, guess not. See how I use Israeli to refer to people? Since it’s Israeli citizens who lose because of an extremist Israel? Hamas are terrorists, Israel is an apartheid state. The citizens both groups have control over are suffering and your trying to conflate denouncing Israel and antisemitism. Stop.
Agreed but you’re splitting hairs. My grandparents who voted for Biden aren’t really “the left” either.
My ex who i’ve convinced to switch sides on this issue but is too afraid to say anything publicly because she doesn’t think she knows enough of the history to take a stance isn’t really “the left”, but she voted Biden too.
Pretty much all of the Democratic leadership except Ilhan Omar.
Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t that left either, yet you go to one Hamas Terrorist funeral, and suddenly you’re a terrorist sympathiser and out come the photos at election time.
Sure, you can be left in the West, but not in a way where you’ll get even a sniff of power.
Everything I read about this dude characterizes him as abandoning left wing policy in favor of center, center-right policy.
4th paragraph of his wikipedia page
His leadership has been characterised by movement towards the political centre and abandonment of the left-wing platform of his leadership campaign, as well as by opposition to some of the government response to the COVID-19 pandemic and issues such as Partygate
I just think it’s strange for you to insinuate that the position of the left is that of Israel’s.
If you have problems with me saying ‘Isreal’s crimes are wrong’ without clarification about Hamas being bad as well then you should have first had problems with the guy saying “Hamas attacked Israel in the bloodiest assault in history”, implying everything Isreal is doing is morally permissible.
Speaking of, Hamas has over 1MM liters of fuel, and ample supplies of fresh water, that they refuse to distribute in Gaza. They also refuse to return hostages, which would also immediately lift the siege.
The reason they stockpiled so much is their tunnel ventilation systems run on generators (which is also the reason Israel is trying to deny them fuel, because tunnel fighting is a nightmare and that’s what is coming)
I mean we can copy the same comments to another over and over all day if ya want.
I’ve got 3 hrs til my plane boards
FWIW I’d strongly support a heavily-militarized aid station set up in the south but you know as well as I do that people would still blame Israel for Hamas gunning down people headed south.
Forget the tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians that Israel has killed. Those don’t matter at all in the context of your very well thought out point.
Being one of the only lefties with common sense, I get ratio’d quite often. But I don’t need fake points from imaginary online friends to feel good about myself 😂
Prior to early October, Israel was completely out of Gaza, and was not attacking Gaza whatsoever, so no they weren’t killing them long before they took hostages.
Also the entire siege is about trying to force Hamas to give up hostages. That is literally the reason it is being done. Hamas also has massive food, water, and fuel stockpiles they refuse to share with the people they “govern”
I urge you to get your source not from literally the entity being excused of genocide (or its direct allies e.i. US news outlets). they have enough money to throw so much propaganda at you that you would never believe anything else.
from one online stranger to another: using and citing sources as such is an instant discredit.
I’ll look up any data you want, if you’ll acknowledge that without the Iron Dome, casualty comparisons would be wildly different.
I have severe issues with some of Israel’s past actions. The invasion of Gaza in the teens was an incredibly poor choice. Hamas has bombed Israel 7,000+ times in the last 2 weeks, Israel just has top tier defenses against rocket attacks
That doesn’t make what they’re doing now wrong, or give Hamas a leg to stand on.
I wonder what the US would do if the Mexican government launched 7,000 missiles at us.
Why are you still talking about the last two weeks when the entire point of this discussion was about what happened before October? Just say that you only discovered this issue two weeks ago if that is the case, which is getting to be pretty obvious if we are being honest here.
You want me to acknowledge that more missiles would have hit Israel in the last two weeks if Israel didn’t shoot down those missiles? Yeah, no shit. Do you think that proves a point? Israel has very little to fear from Gaza, we already knew that.
Just lovely how everybody is forgetting that Israel is responsible for that.
Everyone can always blame someone else, especially in this conflict. It’s time for Israel to grow up and take responsibility for its actions. They have caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people. Somehow we (the US and most of the west) provide them with resources and weapons though. How fucked up is that?
Then by that logic it’s fair game for native Americans to start cleansing all European bloodlines in the United States? As a Latino person, I can go into any southwest state and start killing my neighbors because their ancestors “caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people”?
But they’re STILL causing them harm and anger and using terrorism, right now, actively, even before the 7th of october, it’s been ongoing for over 75 years, it hasn’t stopped once, its been happening everyday in Gaza and the West Bank (where Hamas isn’t), besides the fact that the occupation power very explicitly stated its intentions of basically deleting every single Palestinian, even before the 7th of october.
other than the starvation and thirst they’re forcing onto them, they keep bombing civilian buildings, they bombed multiple medical centers including a hospital where over 1000 people (injured civilians from the occupation’s bombings), over half of which were children, toddlers, and babies died.
Article 8, section 2.b:
2.b.i. Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
2.b.ii. Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
israel is committing war crimes and being praised and supported for it.
nothing justifies the intentional or unintentional killing of any civilians, children, women, or men, EVEN IF THE ENEMY WAS KILLING CIVILIANS TOO!
Let’s also not forget that israel is one of the largest and most powerful military entities in the world, supported by even larger military powers, going against this tiny patch of land called Gaza, where the people there have been continually oppressed for over 75 years, Hamas’s homemade mortars dont do nearly as much damage as israel’s US-made targetted missiles, and it’s obvious from the fact that no building has been brought down in israel by Hamas, while Gaza is being basically flattened as we speak.
No, dude. I’m not saying what Hamas is doing is “fair game”. I’m saying Israel has a responsibility in it, and they aren’t handling it well. In the past, I totally understand native Americans killing settlers, especially on their land that was promised to them in treaties that they agreed to when moving. Present day, this stuff isn’t happening. If anything, we’re trying to make up for those actions that we now see as a mistake. In present day Israel though, they’re actively performing those actions that cause the inhabitants to feel the need to fight back.
Also, not a tanky. Not everyone who disagrees with Zionism is anti-semitic or a tanky. Grow up and try to come up with an actual reasonable argument.
Commiting genocide against a civilian population is not self defense. How can you read an article like the OP and just be completely empty inside? How broken are you?
An alternative? There are infinite. They can start cooperating and make a good will gesture of returning occupied lands back to the Palestinian people. They can stop colonizing and murdering innocent civilians (which isn’t only just now happening, it’s constant in occupied lands). They can loosen restriction on travel between Gaza and Israel.
The solution is to improve relations with the people. Attacking them and killing civilians only causes more hate, which causes more violence. It isn’t defence. It’s genocide. They get Hamas to attack and they get to kill more Palestinians.
They never tried that. They have been constantly expanding colonies and murdering civilians in occupied lands. The whole nation started with just some Jews colonizing the territory, and it was made official after that when they knew there was no stopping it (not that they would anyway). They did reduce their harm for a period, but they never really tried to do good.
Isreal is indiscriminately bombing civilian/Palestinian population centers and diving people out of their homes.*
A 48 hour WW2 era artillery barrages would flatten the Gaza Strip. Believing that Israel is “indiscriminately bombing” the strip requires you to believe that they’re the most incompetent military force to have ever walked the planet.
Because Hamas’s stated purpose is to destroy Israel, and they knew their attack would be met with reprisal, so they took hostages as human meat-shields
I really hope israel will loose their wildcard and be accountable for all this shit. Just remove their privileges!
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Israel=The Israeli govt. in basically every conversation within this context. Trying to say “but both right?!” When that’s what everyone has been saying from the start, makes you look like you’re acting in bad faith.
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That you’re an Israeli shill? I was trying to be nice about it, guess not. See how I use Israeli to refer to people? Since it’s Israeli citizens who lose because of an extremist Israel? Hamas are terrorists, Israel is an apartheid state. The citizens both groups have control over are suffering and your trying to conflate denouncing Israel and antisemitism. Stop.
It’s hard to go against them in the West.
The right hate Muslims so side with Israel.
The left hate to be called antisemites, so hand-wring over civilian deaths, but ultimately side with Israel.
Who are these voices on the “left” that you say are supporting Israel?
Biden
Biden is not the left lmao
True, but effectively on the political stage, he is the opposition. Understandable that non-politically online people/normal people call him left.
Agreed but you’re splitting hairs. My grandparents who voted for Biden aren’t really “the left” either.
My ex who i’ve convinced to switch sides on this issue but is too afraid to say anything publicly because she doesn’t think she knows enough of the history to take a stance isn’t really “the left”, but she voted Biden too.
Pretty much all of the Democratic leadership except Ilhan Omar.
They’re not leftists but they are “the left”
The “viable left” I suppose.
Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t that left either, yet you go to one Hamas Terrorist funeral, and suddenly you’re a terrorist sympathiser and out come the photos at election time.
Sure, you can be left in the West, but not in a way where you’ll get even a sniff of power.
https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/keir-starmers-statement-to-the-commons-on-israel-gaza-2/
And this is where you accuse anybody right of being a full communist of not being left enough, so we can save ourselves that interaction.
Keir Starmer?
Everything I read about this dude characterizes him as abandoning left wing policy in favor of center, center-right policy.
4th paragraph of his wikipedia page
I just think it’s strange for you to insinuate that the position of the left is that of Israel’s.
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No one on the left is hand wringing over the civilian deaths but ultimately siding with Israel. Literally no one.
You recall that Hamas attacked Israel in the bloodiest assault in history, right?
You guys make me embarrassed to call myself a lefty.
Well gee, that sure does give Isreal the right to do ethnic cleansing. It’s self defense after all so everything is permissible. /s
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Saying that Isreal shouldn’t be killing civilians and doing ethnic cleansing is not pro-Hamas.
Neither party should be doing those things.
I am.
Perhaps you could try not assuming the worst out of people you don’t know.
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If you have problems with me saying ‘Isreal’s crimes are wrong’ without clarification about Hamas being bad as well then you should have first had problems with the guy saying “Hamas attacked Israel in the bloodiest assault in history”, implying everything Isreal is doing is morally permissible.
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Why do you pretend everybody is stupid? People know the history. They know the attack didn’t happen in a vacuum. They can also think it’s bad.
As a result of this they can tell when somebody is doing atrocity propaganda to defend and aid in Israel’s impunity to kill thousands of Palestinians.
The pot calling the kettle black
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I don’t support Hamas.
No, I’m just against ethnic cleansing, which is what Isreal is currently doing and getting billions of dollars in support for.
Isreal shouldn’t be doing ethnic cleansing, nor should Hamas.
It’s really a sign of intelligence to assume things of people you don’t know and have only ever spoken to on the internet.
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Yep you sure showed that guy which person here is the moron… /S
Please keep insulting me. I’m becoming so convinced you’re right.
Israel is doing ethnic cleansing. They’ve been doing it for 50+ years.
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The Gaza population has doubled in the last 20 years. If they are doing ethnic cleansing they’re doing a really bad job at it
Meanwhile Jews are banned from almost all Muslim countries
No one here is supporting Hamas. We support PALESTINE.
Hamas doing something horrible doesn’t make it OK to starve the entirety of Gaza though, not everyone inside Gaza is Hamas
Speaking of, Hamas has over 1MM liters of fuel, and ample supplies of fresh water, that they refuse to distribute in Gaza. They also refuse to return hostages, which would also immediately lift the siege.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-gaza-photos-show-half-million-liters-of-fuel-held-by-hamas/
Edit to add:
The reason they stockpiled so much is their tunnel ventilation systems run on generators (which is also the reason Israel is trying to deny them fuel, because tunnel fighting is a nightmare and that’s what is coming)
Here’s a great video with more info https://www.youtube.com/live/xfc0nHLgDuY?si=8P-MddAIFXsFt-mA
It’s not unreasonable to expect an enemy government to feed their people, rather than your country
I mean we can copy the same comments to another over and over all day if ya want.
I’ve got 3 hrs til my plane boards
FWIW I’d strongly support a heavily-militarized aid station set up in the south but you know as well as I do that people would still blame Israel for Hamas gunning down people headed south.
Down near the border crossing that Israel keeps bombing?
Until it sinks in.
Palestine is protecting and aiding Hamas, though.
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Bloodiest assault in history? You have to be joking.
Uhh yeah? This is the bloodiest attack Palestine has ever done against Israel. Are you stunned? 😂
Forget the tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians that Israel has killed. Those don’t matter at all in the context of your very well thought out point.
Moved the goalposts and you’re still wrong.
I’m demonstrably right though 😂
Wrong and ratio’d
Being one of the only lefties with common sense, I get ratio’d quite often. But I don’t need fake points from imaginary online friends to feel good about myself 😂
“Everyone I meet is an asshole”
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(x) Doubt.
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Hasn’t Israel been killing them since LONG before they took hostages? Why would release them suddenly make it stop?
Prior to early October, Israel was completely out of Gaza, and was not attacking Gaza whatsoever, so no they weren’t killing them long before they took hostages.
Also the entire siege is about trying to force Hamas to give up hostages. That is literally the reason it is being done. Hamas also has massive food, water, and fuel stockpiles they refuse to share with the people they “govern”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-gaza-photos-show-half-million-liters-of-fuel-held-by-hamas/
Also they’re using that fuel to power the ventilation systems in their tunnels that run on generators
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-770123
I urge you to get your source not from literally the entity being excused of genocide (or its direct allies e.i. US news outlets). they have enough money to throw so much propaganda at you that you would never believe anything else.
from one online stranger to another: using and citing sources as such is an instant discredit.
I’m gonna go ahead and keep listening to the people who aren’t literal terrorists.
well then, again, I urge you to change your sources if you don’t want to listen to terrorists
You get that the history of Israeli and Palestinian relations goes back further than October of this year, right?
Yep.
How many Palestinians did the IDF kill in an average year before October?
I’ll look up any data you want, if you’ll acknowledge that without the Iron Dome, casualty comparisons would be wildly different.
I have severe issues with some of Israel’s past actions. The invasion of Gaza in the teens was an incredibly poor choice. Hamas has bombed Israel 7,000+ times in the last 2 weeks, Israel just has top tier defenses against rocket attacks
That doesn’t make what they’re doing now wrong, or give Hamas a leg to stand on.
I wonder what the US would do if the Mexican government launched 7,000 missiles at us.
Why are you still talking about the last two weeks when the entire point of this discussion was about what happened before October? Just say that you only discovered this issue two weeks ago if that is the case, which is getting to be pretty obvious if we are being honest here.
You want me to acknowledge that more missiles would have hit Israel in the last two weeks if Israel didn’t shoot down those missiles? Yeah, no shit. Do you think that proves a point? Israel has very little to fear from Gaza, we already knew that.
“Look at what you made me do!”
Everyone can always blame someone else, especially in this conflict. It’s time for Israel to grow up and take responsibility for its actions. They have caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people. Somehow we (the US and most of the west) provide them with resources and weapons though. How fucked up is that?
Then by that logic it’s fair game for native Americans to start cleansing all European bloodlines in the United States? As a Latino person, I can go into any southwest state and start killing my neighbors because their ancestors “caused harm, anger, and hatred by using terrorism (fear and violence) to enforce their rule over people”?
How are you tankies this fucking dumb?
But they’re STILL causing them harm and anger and using terrorism, right now, actively, even before the 7th of october, it’s been ongoing for over 75 years, it hasn’t stopped once, its been happening everyday in Gaza and the West Bank (where Hamas isn’t), besides the fact that the occupation power very explicitly stated its intentions of basically deleting every single Palestinian, even before the 7th of october.
other than the starvation and thirst they’re forcing onto them, they keep bombing civilian buildings, they bombed multiple medical centers including a hospital where over 1000 people (injured civilians from the occupation’s bombings), over half of which were children, toddlers, and babies died.
and to top all of that off, from https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml
Article 8, section 2.b: 2.b.i. Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
2.b.ii. Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
israel is committing war crimes and being praised and supported for it.
nothing justifies the intentional or unintentional killing of any civilians, children, women, or men, EVEN IF THE ENEMY WAS KILLING CIVILIANS TOO!
Let’s also not forget that israel is one of the largest and most powerful military entities in the world, supported by even larger military powers, going against this tiny patch of land called Gaza, where the people there have been continually oppressed for over 75 years, Hamas’s homemade mortars dont do nearly as much damage as israel’s US-made targetted missiles, and it’s obvious from the fact that no building has been brought down in israel by Hamas, while Gaza is being basically flattened as we speak.
Do some research before posting online.
No, dude. I’m not saying what Hamas is doing is “fair game”. I’m saying Israel has a responsibility in it, and they aren’t handling it well. In the past, I totally understand native Americans killing settlers, especially on their land that was promised to them in treaties that they agreed to when moving. Present day, this stuff isn’t happening. If anything, we’re trying to make up for those actions that we now see as a mistake. In present day Israel though, they’re actively performing those actions that cause the inhabitants to feel the need to fight back.
Also, not a tanky. Not everyone who disagrees with Zionism is anti-semitic or a tanky. Grow up and try to come up with an actual reasonable argument.
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Commiting genocide against a civilian population is not self defense. How can you read an article like the OP and just be completely empty inside? How broken are you?
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An alternative? There are infinite. They can start cooperating and make a good will gesture of returning occupied lands back to the Palestinian people. They can stop colonizing and murdering innocent civilians (which isn’t only just now happening, it’s constant in occupied lands). They can loosen restriction on travel between Gaza and Israel.
The solution is to improve relations with the people. Attacking them and killing civilians only causes more hate, which causes more violence. It isn’t defence. It’s genocide. They get Hamas to attack and they get to kill more Palestinians.
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They never tried that. They have been constantly expanding colonies and murdering civilians in occupied lands. The whole nation started with just some Jews colonizing the territory, and it was made official after that when they knew there was no stopping it (not that they would anyway). They did reduce their harm for a period, but they never really tried to do good.
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Isreal is indiscriminately bombing civilian/Palestinian population centers and diving people out of their homes.*
What Isreal is doing absolutely falls under the category of genocide.
Kill civilians is indefensible.
A 48 hour WW2 era artillery barrages would flatten the Gaza Strip. Believing that Israel is “indiscriminately bombing” the strip requires you to believe that they’re the most incompetent military force to have ever walked the planet.
When I say “indiscriminate” I mean “disregard for civilian casualties” not “random bombings”.
Would you prefer we call what Israel is doing ethnic cleansing instead?
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This is over just 11 days and is about a week old. https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction/index.html
Tell me again how you don’t ethnically cleanse again??
Why did you start counting at October 7th? Palestine, Hamas, and Israel have existed much longer and been in conflict much longer.
Last I saw, which was before this conflict, Israel has killed 27 (I think, maybe 23 or something around there) Palestinians for every Israeli killed.
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It was UN data. I assume it’s as reliable as it can be. I’ll try to find it again.
Edit: 22.4x here.
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What happened in 2014 and 2018?
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Yes.
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Evil is as evil does. There is never a justification for attacking civilians.
“Stop making me murder you!”
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Israel doesn’t give two shits about the hostages. If they did they wouldn’t keep bombing where they are being held.
Why did they take hostage?
Because Hamas’s stated purpose is to destroy Israel, and they knew their attack would be met with reprisal, so they took hostages as human meat-shields
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