In a report that will make you want to travel by car for the rest of your life, the FAA's records detail how "near collision" episodes are frequent and ongoing.
no i am not and no, the point definitely does not remain.
first, phrasing it like “they didn’t follow TCAS” make them sound like some reckless cowboys, which is simply not the case. they did exactly what they were told by tcas and when they got contradicting order from ATC the did exactly what they were told by him.
second, the statatement “was a result of the one crew not following the TCAS instruction” is simply not true. the accident was a result of ATC (as in the organization, not the specific people having the shift that night) fucked up". reading that linked wiki article may be good place to start to learn about the accident.
Had both aircraft followed those automated instructions, the collision would not have occurred.
That is right from the wiki.
I never claimed the pilots were “cowboys”, you made that up in your head. I simply said the accident was a result of not following TCAS, which at its core is correct. Of course there are multiple contributing factors, ATC being the largest, but my post was already getting long winded.
and had all the pilots overslept that day the incident might not have happen as well and in spite of that, we don’t list them getting out of the bed in the morning as a reason of the accident.
them obeying the atc command was reasonable and expected course of action.
them obeying the atc command was reasonable and expected course of action.
That’s incorrect, and is exactly why we train to ignore ATC commands and follow TCAS advisories. We don’t even tell ATC if we’re climbing or descending, simply “Aircraft XYZ, TCAS RA”
Yours wasn’t a question, it was a statement, and a wrong one. TCAS adherence wasn’t fundamentally changed after the accident in question, but it brought to light it’s importance.
So let’s come back to the original argument: following the erroneous instructions of atc over the TCAS resulted in the accident - if they had followed TCAS, like the DHL crew, they’d be alive.
TCAS adherence wasn’t fundamentally changed after the accident in question
yes it was. fundamentally.
at the time of the accident there wasn’t any regulation that would state what to do in case of contradicting instructions from tcas and atc. different pilots may have been and have been told something else, or may have not been told anything at all and left to make split second decision when such event occurs.
So let’s come back to the original argument: following the erroneous instructions of atc over the TCAS resulted in the accident
yeah, no. BEING SENT ONTO COLLISION COURSE is what resulted in the accident.
yes, had they followed the tcas, the accident might have been avoided. but that is not what caused it. they already were in the shitty situation when they had to decide between tcas and atc.
situation is caused by something that creates the situation, not by all of the infinite number of random things that might have been done to avoid it or escape it when you are already in. otherwise we could get into absurd argument like “if someone haven’t got out of the bed in the morning, the situation might have been avoided as well”. which, while technically true, is also absurd nonsense and no one would seriously tried to argue that.
no i am not and no, the point definitely does not remain.
first, phrasing it like “they didn’t follow TCAS” make them sound like some reckless cowboys, which is simply not the case. they did exactly what they were told by tcas and when they got contradicting order from ATC the did exactly what they were told by him.
second, the statatement “was a result of the one crew not following the TCAS instruction” is simply not true. the accident was a result of ATC (as in the organization, not the specific people having the shift that night) fucked up". reading that linked wiki article may be good place to start to learn about the accident.
That is right from the wiki.
I never claimed the pilots were “cowboys”, you made that up in your head. I simply said the accident was a result of not following TCAS, which at its core is correct. Of course there are multiple contributing factors, ATC being the largest, but my post was already getting long winded.
and had all the pilots overslept that day the incident might not have happen as well and in spite of that, we don’t list them getting out of the bed in the morning as a reason of the accident.
them obeying the atc command was reasonable and expected course of action.
That’s incorrect, and is exactly why we train to ignore ATC commands and follow TCAS advisories. We don’t even tell ATC if we’re climbing or descending, simply “Aircraft XYZ, TCAS RA”
And guess since when it is done that way…
According to the wiki…
Two years prior to the accident, in Europe, where the accident happened.
that is not answer to my question. but you knew that, didn’t you? 😜
Yours wasn’t a question, it was a statement, and a wrong one. TCAS adherence wasn’t fundamentally changed after the accident in question, but it brought to light it’s importance.
So let’s come back to the original argument: following the erroneous instructions of atc over the TCAS resulted in the accident - if they had followed TCAS, like the DHL crew, they’d be alive.
Edit: posted two answers by accident. Deleted one
Hi actual pilot,
Has other poster actually provided any evidence of or mentioned any qualifications to you? Because I think you’re arguing with a clueless idiot.
you know what i meant
no
yes it was. fundamentally.
at the time of the accident there wasn’t any regulation that would state what to do in case of contradicting instructions from tcas and atc. different pilots may have been and have been told something else, or may have not been told anything at all and left to make split second decision when such event occurs.
about a year before uberlingen there was very similar incident - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Japan_Airlines_mid-air_incident. there were other incidents before and after.
yeah, no. BEING SENT ONTO COLLISION COURSE is what resulted in the accident.
yes, had they followed the tcas, the accident might have been avoided. but that is not what caused it. they already were in the shitty situation when they had to decide between tcas and atc.
situation is caused by something that creates the situation, not by all of the infinite number of random things that might have been done to avoid it or escape it when you are already in. otherwise we could get into absurd argument like “if someone haven’t got out of the bed in the morning, the situation might have been avoided as well”. which, while technically true, is also absurd nonsense and no one would seriously tried to argue that.
deleted by creator