• coolBanned from community
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    • Kaigyo@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      I get the frustration but this is a bad take.

      In a two-party, first-past-the-post system you kinda have an ethical obligation to vote for the lesser evil. It’s just a statistical fact you can’t ignore.

      It fucking blows, but if your choices are the shitty status quo or full blown fascism, you really should pick the status quo.

      Obviously doesn’t fix the problem with the Democrat party sliding further and further right since they can continue to claim “lesser evil”… and it also doesn’t fix the DNC superdelegate shenanigans that got us Hillary instead of Bernie… but I’d rather the country be able to still exist to fight another day.

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        • jim3692@discuss.online
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          1 month ago

          The ethical stance to take against 2 evil candidates is to support neither.

          This may be the ethical thing to do. However, ethical is not always the best.

          By not voting the lesser evil, you allowed the more evil to win the elections.

          The percentage of non-voting people has no direct impact to the end result. In a perfect democratic world, that non-voting majority would sign the elected government to be more careful with their decisions, as people are loosing trust. In the current state of “democracy”, a fascist just took over and started dismantling the country.

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            • nyctre@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              Yes, it’s a loss no matter what. But when you get to decide whether to eat a shit sandwich or a paper sandwich, you either choose to eat the paper sandwich or you’re forced to eat the shit sandwich. Guess you opted for the shit sandwich… enjoy!

                • nyctre@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  Not a mod. Also not hiding. No idea wtf you’re on about. You probably had whatever musk had.

                • nyctre@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  I know, it’'s called an analogy. :) Might be a bad one, sure, but I wasn’t talking literally. Didn’t think I’d have to explain that. But then again, 77 million people voted for trump, so… not completely surprised either.

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                • nyctre@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  Yeah, because Harris wouldn’t have caused the shit fest that’s intensifying right about now. Probably wouldn’t have been a great president either, but a meh president is better than whatever the trump+musk combo is. Two months in and it’s already affecting people halfway around the world and somehow you’re glad. That doesn’t say anything good about you, not sure why you’re advertising it.

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        • Kaigyo@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          You’re conflating voting for someone with supporting them. I didn’t support Hillary or Kamala but I still voted for them because the alternative was so much worse. That’s just the shitty reality of our two-party, fptp voting system.

          In this system, one of those two parties will win regardless of how you specifically cast or don’t cast your vote. The time to fight for the ideal candidate is the four years leading up to the election. When you get to the ballot box, you really just have to swallow what’s perfect and pick what’s not terrible (at least in that moment).

          Supporting the lesser evil makes useful idiots think that they’re winning and therefore stop fighting back.

          But the alternative is effectively accelerationism, throwing millions of people under the bus, and hoping that things shake out in your favor after a violent revolution. Which… I don’t agree with as a plan, but we’re kind of already on this path so 🤷‍♂️.

          Also, I’m not mad at you. And I think I largely agree with you, with anger at the system and candidate selection. I just don’t agree with you about casting your vote being the time and place to stage a protest (in a system like ours at least).

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            • Kaigyo@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              I can say with certainty that trying to argue with me about why I should support the lesser evil is a complete waste of your time and energy.

              Well, I guess we’ll just have to agree on that then.

    • Rhoeri@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      Naaaah. I’m going to go ahead and blame the people who arrogantly chose to feed their entitlement and not vote.

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        • Rhoeri@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Cool, and I’ll ask that you not only let me know when doing absolutely nothing starts winning elections, but also that you let me know when time when it ever has.

          Better yet- how about you tell me of an instance in history when not doing shit has ever won anything at all.

          Your refusal to vote helped put us right where Trump wanted. Own that shit.

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            • Tja@programming.dev
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              1 month ago

              Clinton was a much better candidate than trump. Like, miles ahead. They tried to pin benghazi on her for months and it was proven time and again she wasn’t responsible for it. The other argument was “but her emails”. She was experienced. She was intelligent. She didn’t sexually assault anyone. She didn’t go bankrupt every few years. She even won the popular vote. But she was a she, so that’s apparently a deal breaker in swing states.

              • Rhoeri@lemmy.world
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                1 month ago

                These kids don’t want to hear that because it flies in the face their designer manufactured outrage, but it’s a good point nonetheless.

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            • Rhoeri@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              No point of yours was made, therefore there was no point to prove.

              And what I’m doing, is diverting the blame to where it lies. You can tell yourself all you need to believe you had no part in creating the dumpster fire we’re currently burning in, but do me a favor and just stick with telling that to yourself, okay? Because anyone with a brain that has even slightly been paying attention is tired of watching you people ignorantly pointing your fingers at everyone but your smug and entitled selves.

    • Leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 month ago

      You have to vote according to how the electoral system actually works, not how you wish it worked. Unless you - yes, you - are personally prepared to fund and organise a revolution to change that system then you vote against the actual fascist.

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        • Leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          1 month ago

          I can tell you’re going to go through whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to convince yourself that voting for the lesser evil is somehow a win.

          My friend, the only one performing mental gymnastics right now is you trying to convince yourself that what you have achieved by refusing to vote against a fascist is a win.

          Sorry you’ve been conditioned to dedicate so much energy working against your own interests. If more of you diverted that energy to the people supporting our oppressors, we wouldn’t need to be having this discussion.

          Assuming you’re an American, by refusing to vote against fascism I’m pretty sure you won’t be having any free discussions in a year or so lest you be carted off by the local stasi.

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            • Leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              1 month ago

              How? Either way I lose.

              Because when you vote against a fascist you’re considering wider society, not just your self.

              If I voted for harris and harris won, I still lost. If I voted for harris and trump won, I still lost. if I voted for trump and trump won, I still lost.

              The correct statement is 'if Harris gets in, I lost. If Trump gets in everyone loses. Its about more than just you.

              You’re naive enough to believe that harris winning is the same as you winning, and that’s just proving my point. You’ve been conditioned to think that a slow loss is the same as a win

              I’m not American. What I am though is able to see that fascism is worse than conservatism. The fact that conservatism is still bad is irrelevant when the only other choice is an actual fascist because the fascist will probably remove your power to vote in the future.

              Gonna block you now. Good luck in life.

              Yeah, some truths are too uncomfortable to be lived with aren’t they?

            • papertowels@mander.xyz
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              I find it very interesting how conceptualizing binary states vs continuous ranges play into justifying not voting for the lesser evil.

              By definition, a request to acknowledge the lesser evil means that the audience is able to understand “evil” on a continuous range.

              Yet all of the justifications I see against voting for the lesser evil center on viewing the world through an absolute, binary lens. “I lose either way.” “Genocide is genocide, nevermind that there’s more of it, protestors are being silenced, the ones doing the genocide call Trump’s administration a ‘dream team’, we now have a genocide against trans citizens as well”, etc.

              Do you think you’d lose less had Kamala won? Why or why not?

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                • papertowels@mander.xyz
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                  1 month ago

                  My life is going to go on much the same no matter who is in office.

                  Ah, now you’re saying the quiet part out loud - you cast your vote from an ivory tower, and that privilege allows you to justify not voting by chasing an esoteric ideal while facing no real consequences.

                  Must be nice! If you have nothing at stake, there’s very little reason to listen to your suggestions about voting. You have no skin in the game - you’re the entitled rich kid protestor who, at the end of the day, goes back to a life they don’t have to worry about.

                  • SausageWallet@lemm.ee
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                    1 month ago

                    That person is simultaneously saying that if Harris won, they would have lost while also saying that whoever is in office wouldn’t affect them.

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    • Genius@lemmy.zip
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      1 month ago

      Vote against genocide. It’s that simple. There are no excuses, when genocide is on the table, you do something.

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    • NotSteve_@lemmy.ca
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      1 month ago

      Yeah fuck off. At least Kamala wouldn’t have been trying to cripple and invade my country

        • NotSteve_@lemmy.ca
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          1 month ago

          When the hell did I say that? Don’t put words in my mouth you stupid fucking American

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        • NotSteve_@lemmy.ca
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          1 month ago

          Who is “you people”. I’m not American.

          I also wasn’t a huge fan of Kamala but at least she wasn’t threatening the sovereignty of numerous nations. She had terrible views on Gaza but she also wasn’t talking about bulldozing Gaza to set up her own luxury resort on top of the corpses.

          But no thank you for being so moral as to not vote for her. I’ll think of you when Trump sends his military into Canada and my city

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            • NotSteve_@lemmy.ca
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              1 month ago

              A protest (non) vote is useless if you’re not going to get to vote again. If you want to fight for something, maybe fight to get rid of FPTP and your two party system that has lead to this scenario.

              Instead of getting mad at me, you people should be getting mad at those who keep nominating candidates I refuse to vote for.

              I am mad at them. I don’t even like the Democratic Party, they’re barely any better than the Canadian Conservative Party (at least before PP who has pushed the party much further in Trump’s direction).

              But again, at least they weren’t planning an invasion of my country, or Panama, or Greenland/Denmark. Or putting people (including Canadians!) in camps. Or selling out Ukraine to buddy up with Russia. Or tearing down any “check and balance” your government had, in record time

              I may not be able to convince you but you’re definitely affirming my view