I don’t disagree, but what entities funds and guide/influence them? They aren’t organizations acting on their own, they are puppets.
This does not in any way downplay the travesties that Palestinian people have been through, only to highlight how Iran has used their influence to control one side of the conflict.
They certainly have shared interests, but to consider them ‘puppets’ ignores their own agencies. Armed resistance against Settler Colonialism will exist regardless of whether they can secure funding from Iran or not. Iran has influence as the main supplier of weapons (most of Hamas’ capabilities come from reusing bombs dropped by Israel that failed to detonate), but they do not control the agency of Hamas or Hezbollah. They have their own reasons to fight back.
On the surface - perhaps. But Iran’s regime has to keep its image of power for its domestic peace. Israel’s gov knows this and they do steps they know would elicit response from Iran in the hopes Iran would actually hit hard and the US would be dragged in official capacity. That would be dramatically destabilizing for the region. I reckon the US threatened Israel with real steps in order to get them to not hit targets that would have led to such escalation.
By dismantling the apartheid, ending the occupation, getting the fuck on their side of their 1967 border, and recognizing the sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Plus, by handing over their war criminals to the ICC and starting a Truth and Reconciliation process. Throw in paying reparations, if they really want peace.
There. Instantly, 90% of Hamas and Hezbollah support has just evaporated. Their neighbours are ready to normalize relations with them. The vast majority of world public opinion is now solidly behind them.
I’d be quite fine with most of this, all of it if by “the occupation” you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But, until peace is established there, that isn’t going to happen. The majority of Gazans support Hamas and believe they committed no atrocities on October 7th.
if by “the occupation” you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank
Yes, exactly. Including the control of their borders of course.
until peace is established there, that isn’t going to happen
That’s entirely the wrong framing. Without these things happening, whatever it is that you think will be established, it won’t be “peace”, is is only a return to the oppressive status quo ante. It’s a cliché but in this conflict, quite literally “no justice, no peace”. My laundry list above is not a desirable outcome after some imaginary unjust “peace”. It is the precondition for peace. Without dismantling the apartheid, the occupation, etc, you’ll only have a temporary lull in the brutality and they go again.
With the number of rockets Hamas and Hezbollah has launched into Israel during “peacetime” while being supplied by Iran, they’re doing a great job of staying enemies.
Did you know that the Gazan bomb disposal teams are some of the most skilled in the world? The reason for this is so they can disarm and disassemble unexploded Israeli bombs so that the explosives can be repurposed and fired back. So a surprisingly large portion of the explosives that Hamas used were supplied by Israel via their long-term sporadic bombing of Gaza and anything resembling major infrastructure.
Well maybe Israel should stop its brutal, decades-long apartheid campaign that’s pissing off all of its neighbors and pre-dates Hamas by around 50 years.
How many of these brutal wars were started by Israel completely unprovoked, and how many of them were started because Israel’s neighbors F-ed around before finding out?
Good job putting peacetime in quotes, because during that “peacetime” Israel was airstriking Gaza and blockading it. These are straight up acts of war and justify and demand retaliation. Also Hezbollah didn’t launch rockets on Israel before October 7th.
Into Lebanese (some consider it Syrian, doesn’t change the dynamic) occupied territory before and after Oct 7th. Gradual escalation (with 80% of those attacks coming from Israeli side) expanded the scale of the northern/southern front to what we see today. Israel has killed 2 orders of magnitude more civilians than Hezballah has and has sought escalation at every stage.
Before Oct 7th, they would exchange fire in occupied Lebanese land and tensions would rise then fizzle out about once a month.
They don’t have to go anywhere. They just don’t get a religious ethnostate any more. Let Palestine be a free democracy and they are welcome to live in a free society, no apartheid.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
Otzma Jehudit is part of the Israeli Government coalition, it consists mainly of internationally wanted terrorists. and you want to bat for these terrorists? the ones who have been preaching the 14 words as a justification for genocide?
Assuming that’s true, that’s one group within the government. Find them, try them, and imprison them. On the other side are three entire genocidal terrorist regimes. Will you side with them? What do you think we should do with them?
Calling the people you dislike “terrorists” to avoid critical thinking about the atrocities (including genocide) of your own side isn’t really the gotcha you think it is.
I’m not calling them that on my own. I’m describing them the way multiple other nations have described them - not Israel. You only need to see their actions towards their own population to see why.
I don’t think Iran had to attack Israel in first place. Hezbollah sought this when they started attacking Israel after Oct 7th.
Ignoring all the assassinations and strikes by Israel, including the unprovoked bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus?
Iran is supporting it’s allies like the West does
Are they really allies if they’re just an extension of yourself?
Hamas and Hezbollah only exists because of the Ethnic Cleansing and Occupation of the native population of Palestine and Lebanon respectively.
I don’t disagree, but what entities funds and guide/influence them? They aren’t organizations acting on their own, they are puppets.
This does not in any way downplay the travesties that Palestinian people have been through, only to highlight how Iran has used their influence to control one side of the conflict.
They certainly have shared interests, but to consider them ‘puppets’ ignores their own agencies. Armed resistance against Settler Colonialism will exist regardless of whether they can secure funding from Iran or not. Iran has influence as the main supplier of weapons (most of Hamas’ capabilities come from reusing bombs dropped by Israel that failed to detonate), but they do not control the agency of Hamas or Hezbollah. They have their own reasons to fight back.
On the surface - perhaps. But Iran’s regime has to keep its image of power for its domestic peace. Israel’s gov knows this and they do steps they know would elicit response from Iran in the hopes Iran would actually hit hard and the US would be dragged in official capacity. That would be dramatically destabilizing for the region. I reckon the US threatened Israel with real steps in order to get them to not hit targets that would have led to such escalation.
Since Iran is funding and arming Hezbollah and Hamas, how should Israel handle Iran?
By dismantling the apartheid, ending the occupation, getting the fuck on their side of their 1967 border, and recognizing the sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Plus, by handing over their war criminals to the ICC and starting a Truth and Reconciliation process. Throw in paying reparations, if they really want peace.
There. Instantly, 90% of Hamas and Hezbollah support has just evaporated. Their neighbours are ready to normalize relations with them. The vast majority of world public opinion is now solidly behind them.
I’d be quite fine with most of this, all of it if by “the occupation” you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But, until peace is established there, that isn’t going to happen. The majority of Gazans support Hamas and believe they committed no atrocities on October 7th.
Yes, exactly. Including the control of their borders of course.
That’s entirely the wrong framing. Without these things happening, whatever it is that you think will be established, it won’t be “peace”, is is only a return to the oppressive status quo ante. It’s a cliché but in this conflict, quite literally “no justice, no peace”. My laundry list above is not a desirable outcome after some imaginary unjust “peace”. It is the precondition for peace. Without dismantling the apartheid, the occupation, etc, you’ll only have a temporary lull in the brutality and they go again.
Stop making an enemy of all their neighbors with their apartheid/genocide project, would be a good start.
With the number of rockets Hamas and Hezbollah has launched into Israel during “peacetime” while being supplied by Iran, they’re doing a great job of staying enemies.
Did you know that the Gazan bomb disposal teams are some of the most skilled in the world? The reason for this is so they can disarm and disassemble unexploded Israeli bombs so that the explosives can be repurposed and fired back. So a surprisingly large portion of the explosives that Hamas used were supplied by Israel via their long-term sporadic bombing of Gaza and anything resembling major infrastructure.
Impressive feat. But Iran is still aiding and abetting Hamas’s military campaign against Israel.
Well maybe Israel should stop its brutal, decades-long apartheid campaign that’s pissing off all of its neighbors and pre-dates Hamas by around 50 years.
How many of these brutal wars were started by Israel completely unprovoked, and how many of them were started because Israel’s neighbors F-ed around before finding out?
You say aiding and abetting like supporting anti-colonial resistance is a bad thing.
Yeah… yeah, I’d say supporting Hamas is bad. Or is there no sacrifice too large for the Resistance?
Good job putting peacetime in quotes, because during that “peacetime” Israel was airstriking Gaza and blockading it. These are straight up acts of war and justify and demand retaliation. Also Hezbollah didn’t launch rockets on Israel before October 7th.
Lol, not being an Israel apologist here, but Hezbollah has been launching rockets at Israel since they were formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah–Israel_conflict
Educate yourself.
Israel and Lebanon have a long, blood-soaked history. And the claim that Hezbollah didn’t launch rockets before October 7th is false.
Into Lebanese (some consider it Syrian, doesn’t change the dynamic) occupied territory before and after Oct 7th. Gradual escalation (with 80% of those attacks coming from Israeli side) expanded the scale of the northern/southern front to what we see today. Israel has killed 2 orders of magnitude more civilians than Hezballah has and has sought escalation at every stage.
Before Oct 7th, they would exchange fire in occupied Lebanese land and tensions would rise then fizzle out about once a month.
Lebanon is by no means innocent in this. These invasions haven’t been happening unprovoked. The 1978 invasion was because of a massacre of civilians, and the 1982 war started because of an attempted assassination on Israel’s PM. Should Israel just let their people get slaughtered?
They have a long blood soaked history that had mostly ended with the second Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 2006 before restarting last year.
And Hezbollah was the one that restarted it, in solidarity with Hamas.
Getting the hell out of all 67 occupied land
Dislocating over 9 million people is no small feat. Where would they go? Or should they just lay down and die?
They said leave all 1967 occupied areas.
You responded with the entire population of Israel.
And I later asked how this will appease all these other actors that just want to wipe Israel off the map. How will that happen?
You mean you assumed facts not in evidence.
Does that make Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas any more likely to establish lasting peace with Israel if they surrender a tiny sliver of land?
They don’t have to go anywhere. They just don’t get a religious ethnostate any more. Let Palestine be a free democracy and they are welcome to live in a free society, no apartheid.
Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas want to kill them all, though.
Read again I said the land colonized after 67 so the israelis aren’t moving anywhere
Oh, you mean this? If they’re such filthy colonizers, how is that going to change the situation enough to stop the violence?
All the post 67 land are considered occupied why Palestinians should give up their land?
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
Because they’ll stop being filthy colonizers.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
to be fair, it’s much easier if you just annex and slaughter the fucking browns who are there
Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, and Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism. Do you want to go to bat for them?
Otzma Jehudit is part of the Israeli Government coalition, it consists mainly of internationally wanted terrorists. and you want to bat for these terrorists? the ones who have been preaching the 14 words as a justification for genocide?
Assuming that’s true, that’s one group within the government. Find them, try them, and imprison them. On the other side are three entire genocidal terrorist regimes. Will you side with them? What do you think we should do with them?
Calling the people you dislike “terrorists” to avoid critical thinking about the atrocities (including genocide) of your own side isn’t really the gotcha you think it is.
Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and Israel are currently acting as terrorist states/groups. That isn’t up for debate, because it’s objective reality.
I’m not calling them that on my own. I’m describing them the way multiple other nations have described them - not Israel. You only need to see their actions towards their own population to see why.