- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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Fuck, china is so brutal to just arrest people simply on the suspicion of illegally providing state secrets to foreign countries! What kind of country does that? 915 days now!
… and the missing sunshine part really makes me wonder what those Uyghurs were missing during their time of imprisonment…
- Edham Mamet: 2827 days
- Arkin Mahmud: 2793 days
- Ahmad Tourson: 2824 days
- Abdul Razak: 3586 days
- Hassan Anvar: 2818 days
- Ahmed Adil: 1547 days
- Yusef Abbas: 4204 days
- Akhdar Qasem Basit: 1425 days
- Bahtiyar Mahnut: 2791 days
- Abdul Helil Mamut: 2558 days
- Haji Mohammed: 1425 days
- Saidullah Khalik: (data missing)
- Abdul Ghappar: 2679 days
- Hajiakbar Abdulghupur: (data missing)
- Abu Bakr Qasim: 1425 days
- Abdullah Abdulqadirakhun: 2558 days
- Dawut Abdurehim: 2677 days
- Adel Abdulhehim: 1425 days
- Emam Abdulahat: 2558 days
- Hozaifa Parhat: 2604 days
- Hammad Memet: 3586 days
- Adel Noori: 2706 days
I’ve been seeing this sort of thing in a few threads now since the federation and im a bit confused by it. Showing that China is doing similar things to the US doesn’t seem like a strong argument if the thing the US is doing (in this case indefinite detention without trial in a horrible prison) is bad. Is the idea that post-federation there’s users who don’t view the US as doing bad things?
Seems she was imprisoned on espionage charges. Some people in gitmo don’t even have charges against them iirc.
Showing that China is doing similar things to the US doesn’t seem like a strong argument if the thing the US is doing (in this case indefinite detention without trial in a horrible prison) is bad. Is the idea that post-federation there’s users who don’t view the US as doing bad things?
The problem is that liberals are operating on “Our country (the US, UK, a European country, etc) is better than China because of these reasons, China bad, 100 million dead” and so the idea is to first go “Actually, China isn’t doing anything worse than the United States is doing” and then later on go “…and, in fact, the United States is the one that’s by far the worst.” Basically to cushion the blow of having their worldview swept out from under them.
So the first step is to go “Oh, is China bad because they imprison people for revealing state secrets? Then look at all these people in your own countries that have done the same.”
And then the second step is to go “And, in fact, China has a lower number of incarcerated people than the United States despite having almost five times more people.”
of course, then they start blubbering about “buh buh buh, they’re lying and a-actually have trillions in prison and they’re killing them and xi is personally beating them because he’s evil and a monster and the CCP they’re bad and they–” but the seed of doubt has still been established
Nice, reasonable explanation comrade! Just in case anyone didn’t know, TheDeprogram has a good wiki page on whataboutism that covers this nicely as well.
But yeah, people will find that we communists do criticize socialist governments, past and present, and do find flaws in China’s system. You just have to come to the communist subs and read around, or ask honest questions. But on platforms like this, where obvious lies, biases, and if nothing else, just one-sided reporting is rampant, we need to balance out the rhetoric. Of course capitalist countries (past and previous) have jailed journalists and those that have pushed back against American imperialism. Native Americans, Middle Easterners, Mexico, are just a short list of those that we constantly oppress.
China keeps making the news because western media keeps putting them in the news, even if it is for things that the USA or western Europe is also currently doing (You don’t think the USA and Europe don’t ban websites, do you? Have they ever forcefully sterilized people? Yes. Have they ever taken journalists prisoners… obviously yes… Oppressed religions? Duh… The list goes on and on). Calling out these non-western nations for doing these things is simply adding fuel to the fire to create a monolithic opinion that the USA or Europe is the best place on earth.
If you are on Elysium, things looks pretty great, and you can look down upon the others and judge them easily, while extracting their resources and causing their struggles in the first place. Being taken out of your bubble feels really uncomfortable, but it’s the first step in learning.
You’re confusing me a bit too tbh.
seeing this sort of thing
What sort of thing?
since the federation
I checked hexbear before the federation and found it to be mostly an awfully friendly and kinda cool place, so I was excited. But now I see so many paranoid hexbear users talking about “the federation” as if it were some kind of historical event with great significance; almost like how Palestinians talk about the Nakba. Why is that?
Showing that China is doing similar things to the US doesn’t seem like a strong argument if the thing the US is doing (in this case indefinite detention without trial in a horrible prison) is bad.
I don’t really understand what you mean. Even the best liberal super-democracy (let’s say Switzerland) will detain you if they suspect that you have given out state secrets to foreign countries. Literally every country will. That was kinda the point of my comment.
Secondly, I was not trying to show anything; I was just wondering what those people were missing during their (not indefinite) imprisonment. They’re all free now, including the ones with data missing. And I didn’t research the reasons for their imprisonment, use a search engine if you want to know more.
Is the idea that post-federation there’s users who don’t view the US as doing bad things?
You know that there have always been and that there always will be users with that view, so why even ask that question; and why ask it with “post-federation”? it honestly gives the impression you’re in a cult, no offense.
Re: hexbear stalking about “the federation” in heavy tones.
we’ve been bitten by linking up with other communities before, (r/vegancirclejerk) and the moment before federation we were preemptively defederated from lemmy.world
Quiet shire no more, now there are liberals at the gates and ominous tidings (I’m joking, but there’s change in the air is what I mean)
To be honest, I think .world kind of long-term fucked themselves on that one. They were one of the only instances big enough to act as any kind of counterweight to our posting power, and by sealing themselves off from us, and because our lack of downvotes results in more and higher rated comments, they’ve pretty much ceded rhetorical dominance of much of the rest of the verse to us and our lemmygrad friends.
But now I see so many paranoid hexbear users talking about “the federation” as if it were some kind of historical event with great significance; almost like how Palestinians talk about the Nakba. Why is that?
It’s tongue in cheek, mocking the hysterical libs who can’t process actually sharing an online space with leftists.
Oh, I hope it is! But even if it is, I think there are much better ways to approach that. But yea, what happened to lemmy.world, is indeed super unfortunate.
What happened to Lemmy.world?
What you’re talking about … takeover by hysterical and authoritarian libs.
And btw, I’m not talking about a “critical mass takeover” it’s from the admin; sort the comments by top to see the disagreement.
Ah OK. Yeah that’s unfortunate, but I suppose all the reddit refugees who wanted another reddit have to go somewhere.
A bigger question is whether or not this is necessary to be a super power. There has never been a super power that did not do this. We can argue good or bad till we are blue in the face, but if it’s a necessity, then it’s going to happen. Even if the necessity is just to become a global dominant power.
An easier example to understand is selling military equipment that will absolutely be used in genocides. You can’t be a super power if you don’t sell advanced military equipment. Inevitably, some of those you sell to will be using it to murder journalists for reporting about the line.
So, yeah selling them those weapons is bad. But if you don’t do it, someone else will. That someone else will gain inordinate amounts of power making sure your country will never be in power. So we sell, we sell it as we watch Palestinians burn.
Now do gitmo
Copy paste those names and have a gaff
Oof
I just want you to know that your username made me laugh out loud while on the toilet - thank you.
GOOD post
Damn, when my brother got locked up for years for weed possession before it was legalized and he never got a glowing article like this despite being a loving father as well. Doesn’t the US do the same thing for spy and espionage stuff?
There are also a couple “cop city” journalists who were arrested for domestic terrorism recently for, checks notes, reporting what the cops were doing to protestors
Nice!
seems to be soley writing anti-China posts for western media. This doesn’t change the fact that prisons are inhumane and should be abolished. I reccomend any of Angela Davis’ works on the topic.
What replaces them?
Systems of rehabilitation and methods to prevent crime, not punish it. Look up Angela Davis for someone smarter than me who has explained it better.
It’s very hard to rehabilitate a foreign spy while the government they work for is still around. What we would do to handle crime in a hypothetical global commune is very different from how socialist states fighting for survival need to handle such matters.
Perhaps a starting point would be to expose their acts and lawfully charge them to court based, the spies should bear the full brunt of that. No state should arrest or accuse an individual based on suspicion or speculations without any proof or evidence to support it.
And for what its worth, China is neither a socialist state nor is it fighting for survival.
nor is it fighting for survival.
Those US military bases are just surrounding it to keep it warm and the CIA fronts and agents are doing PR.
Few things are as annoying as immensely ignorant social chauvinists masquerading as progressives.
Prisons will still be necessary for the most egregious and irredeemable criminals. The sad reality is that there are certain people who simply need to be sequestered from the rest of society for the general public’s safety, and no amount of rehabilitation or intervention will solve that. But that should be the exception, not the norm. The massive prison population is absolutely a problem, but it isn’t something that can be completely abolished. It may be called something else in the future (like a long-term involuntary mental health facility,) but it’s still serving the same basic function while wearing a more friendly mask.
It could be abolished in the sense that the “location where we keep the most irredeemable people in society, who absolutely can not be left unsupervised” may not be a “prison”, but some other secure facility that maximizes the ability of these people to make whatever contribution they may be able to make to society.
but some other secure facility that maximizes the ability of these people to make whatever contribution to society they may be able to make to society.
Yeah, I touched on that with my last sentence:
It may be called something else in the future (like a long-term involuntary mental health facility,) but it’s still serving the same basic function while wearing a more friendly mask.
There are two problems with that. The first is that “maximizing contribution to society” can easily be interpreted as “being forced to stamp license plates for 16 hours a day.” We already know this is a possible interpretation, because that’s how our system already interprets it. Either way they’re locked up against their will, and are being forced to perform labor to someone else’s benefit. The very nature of their confinement means that any contribution they make will be for someone else and not themselves. And the simple word for that is “slavery”. The second problem is that it’s still prison. We haven’t actually solved the prison problem at all in this scenario; We’ve simply given it a mask so we can say prisons have been abolished. Like if we don’t call them prisons, we can say we don’t have any prisoners.
My bad for the lack of reading before replying
They will be locked up against their will, unfortunately (until a future society figures out something better)
They don’t need to be forced to stamp license plates under socialism (prison abolition can’t happen under capitalism ofc), but if work were available to them they could receive a fair wage. That would not be slavery, it would be imprisonment, i guess (did I contradict my original point? Idk Maybe, but I still see it as fundamentally different than how a “prison” is defined in the 2020s).
Also “prison abolition” doesn’t need to be literal, it’s just a goal to work towards over many generations. Is it even viable? Who knows, but it’s not gonna get figured out during our lifetimes anyway. In the meantime, we can start to restructure our society in a way that will minimize the scale of prisons, and maybe our grandchildren will find a way to phase them out totally, but that’s their problem.
This question is very similar to “but if I don’t hit my child how will they learn?”
Read Are Prisons Obsolete? By angela davis
“These damn tankies are so obsessed with China, as can be seen from them regularly commenting on the hitpieces on China that we constantly post and upvote”
I don’t see you fuckers saying one tenth as much about India. I wonder why that is?
[Tbf the algorithm is going to be part of why, but I would be shocked if an audit of threads posted showed India reaching even a fifth of the threads China gets here]
About that, what ever happened with Kashmir? Like 4 years ago there was some stuff about an impending isolation by the Indian army, and then nothing since
I don’t know. I saw some reporting on how India basically closed off internet access and made the area a bit of a black box, but the reports were short-lived that I saw.
That sucks
Wonder how Leonard Peltier is feeling
Whataboutism. Nobody said America and China can’t both be bad.
Not even whatabouting, this does suck, its generally not good to arrest journalists and if you’re going to you should have good communication and evidence, cause otherwise it looks bad no matter how legitimate it may potentially be, its just damaging to your credibility and easy to take advantage of by bad faith actors like the western press
Seein this made me think of Leonard, he’s been in there for 40 years, I think of him whenever I hear a news story like this
“That sucks” was clearly sarcastic/downplaying it as no big deal in your original comment.
thought-terminating cliché says what
Except that they’re not both bad, that’s just something Americans keep repeating.
bad or not, china is definitely less bad than America, its not even close
You know this isn’t about China, right? Your obsession with posting about how amazing ANOTHER COUNTRY’S GOVERNMENT is? Another friday night creating posts and commenting to anyone who mentions China? You see how that’s sad and not normal, right?
This isn’t about the CCP or changing minds. It’s about you and I hope you can see that. We can. It’s about giving you an identity and a purpose and bathing in the notoriety of being one of the most prolific posters on a tiny little server called Lemmygrad. I always feel sad for you when I see you out there simping for a government body, but then I see your smugness and rudeness and I feel less bad.
Hopefully you won’t be an old nan yelling at clouds forever.
You’re right, it’s not about China at all, it’s me having to read ignorant drivel from arrogant Americans. You’ve created one of the most deplorable societies in the history of the human race, and a bunch of you are running around bleating about how everyone else is just as bad. Clearly you don’t see how sad and not normal that is. What’s really sad is that I live rent free in your head.
Except they are.
That’s certainly what victims of US propaganda machine believe, but it’s also objectively false.
Welp, case closed. Someone said their opinion is objective truth. I guess denying humans sunshine is only subjectively evil.
Objective facts have nothing to do with anybody’s opinions and the facts are that quality of life in China continues to improve for the vast majority of the people. The government is actively working on doing things like eliminating poverty, creating public infrastructure, providing healthcare, housing, food, and education for all citizens. Chinese government practically eliminated poverty, and in fact China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:
China used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century, they built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade. 90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it’s the most populous country on the planet. Finally, social mobility in China is such that Americans can only dream of.
Anybody who looks at this and thinks China is evil is utterly morally bankrupt.
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Removed by mod
Mkay hon.
Removed by mod
Ah yes, the government that lifted 800 million people out of abject poverty is a bunch of cunts. Imagine being so utterly morally bankrupt to genuinely believe that. Have you been to China, have you talked to people who actually live there. Nobody in the world aside from brainwashed westerners believes the drivel that you spew. The only reason you hate China is because your oligarch owned media tells you to.
go outside then? the sun’s there
