Defending Israel’s security is considered a ‘reason of state’ in the country, where there is practically no public criticism of Netanyahu’s government. Meanwhile, statements in favor of Palestinian human rights are censored

  • Ooops@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    “The problem is that people of Palestinian or Arab descent feel that they cannot express their concerns and criticisms.”

    No, the problem is that many seem to be completely unable to get rid of the people supporting their criticism while openly calling for the killing of all jews.

    There were peaceful protests in Germany. Nobody had a problem with those. But the majority was instead infested with radicals that should have no place in a civilized society.

    There is also a lot of criticism of Israel’s government. And funnily enough we can read all these statements in international as well as German media… while they are being actively censored. Sure.

    If I publically talk about a topic and half the audience cheering are nazis I will stop, reevaluate my message and clearly distance myself from them. When you ‘protest peacefully’ to critisize Israel’s government however it’s okay when a big share of attendees carry symbols of terrorist organisations. And if those protests are then banned it’s “censoring of Palestinian human rights”.

    Don’t get me wrong here… I am the first one telling you that the current government in Israel is a big part of the problem (for the very same reason: not distancing themselves from the radical morons - no, it isn’t enough to speak out against statements of some government official later, those people can’t have a place there at all).

    And the official German government statements were clearly lacking balance. But they were widely and loudly criticised publically for it by many. And many called their initial reaction a massive overreaction. (Again… that was public and not censored…)

    Yet many of those who camplain about banned protests and censoring however have actually another problem entirely: That they often can’t (or don’t want to) distance themselves from that strange other half of “Israel criticsm” that is in fact criticising their right to exist.

    Fix your own side of the bed first, then you can start complaining.

    • timconspicuous@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      There were peaceful protests in Germany. Nobody had a problem with those.

      Nobody? Really? You don’t think the right-wing Springer press (just to name the most glaring example) that is ideologically allied with ultranationalists in Israel had a problem with those? That they wouldn’t have cried foul even if the protests where utterly devoid of any radicals? That they wouldn’t have tried to censor even your imagined peaceful protests?

      • Ooops@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        your imagined peaceful protests

        Yeah, sure. Protests with 10 thousand people in which maybe a few dozen were stopped by the police and a handful of banners were confiscated as questionable were totally not peaceful and unproblematic. And they are also not well documented in the media but imaginary.

        If you refuse reality, that’s a really bad basis for trying to argue.

        Oh, these evil violent Protester with dangerous strollers

    • Zorque@kbin.social
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      Fix your own side of the bed first, then you can start complaining.

      Thats the problem with both sides, though, isn’t it? Its always the other sides fault. And “our” side shouldn’t need to fix anything until “your” side fixes their problem.

      Its an easy way to sit on your ass and do nothing, because clearly the “other side” is worse.

      • Eopia@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        I’m really not seeing any protesters with “from the river to the sea Israel will be free” posters in Germany, quite the opposite I’ve heard Jewish voices expressing support for humanitarian aid to Palestine and criticism of Israel’s government and the violence committed by settlers. On the other hand a liberal mosque is closing because of the threat of attacks and police have to be posted in front of synagogues around the clock. Who is being silenced here and who is sitting on their asses?

        • Ooops@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          I’m really not seeing any protesters with “from the river to the sea Israel will be free” posters in Germany

          Correct, not anymore since they banned that slogan from protests. That’s the censoring we are talking about.

          • Eopia@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            I wrote “Israel will be free” not “Palestine will be free”, the latter has been (rightfully imo) banned, I haven’t seen or heard of anyone using the former (in Germany).

      • Ooops@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Thats the problem with both sides, though, isn’t it? Its always the other sides fault.

        One side, the German government, was loudly criticised for their one-sided support comments. And later for their harsh reaction of banning protests when those protests included terrorists and anti-semites.

        They are trying to fix the former, by also speaking up about the Israeli side of illegal settlements on one hand and Israel’s responsibility to think about collateral civilian damages. Is this perfect? Of course not, but they are doing something. There is no need to “fix” the latter as we don’t need people advocating for Israel’s destruction (or Germany’s destruction to create a new caliphate here - yes, that also happened in some of these protests) on our streets.

        And then on other side we have people who still try to sell the banning of anti-semitism in protests as censoring Arab and Palestinian voices. And who have often done shit fixing anything.

        Sorry, if you don’t understand the concept of freedom of expression and opinion in comparison to absolute free speech. But that’s how it is in Germany. Your freedom to say something publically definitely ends long before public calls for violence. We won’t and we don’t want to change that.

        The sane ones advocating for Palestina without calling for the destruction of Israel themselves or associating with people that do… I can read about their opinions daily in the media. I guess they are doing a very bad job at censoring these voices. Or they never actually tried and it’s not people being censored but certain opinions for specific reason that questions their status of “legitimate opinion”.

  • bedrooms@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    I’m sure German public are better than that (except for the AfD voters).

    My bet is that this is their big ass bureaucracy getting in the way again.

  • letmesleep@feddit.de
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    1 year ago

    I think it’s more that we realize that sometimes getting invaded and having an outside power depose your tyrannous government is the best thing that can happen to you. Even if the process is brutal.

    • ShroOmeric@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      could be that, or could be that you guys never realized that human rights are for all humans… but keep repeating “never again” - that’ll solve everything…

      • letmesleep@feddit.de
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        They are. But Israel is hardly committing any violations here. Responsible for the suffering in Gaza right now is Hamas. They started a war and gave Israel no choice but to defend itself. Hamas could end this war within hours by simply surrendering and the Palestinian people are lucky that they’re being invaded by the IDF and not the Red Army and that Isreal isn’t ready force a surrender by using firebombings and nuclear weapons like America did in WW2.

        • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          “As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows,” writes Pappe, “historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict…The Zionist historical account of how the disputed land became the state of Israel is based on a cluster of myths that subtly cast doubt on the Palestinians’ moral right to the land…This book challenges these myths, which appear in the public domain as indisputable truths. These statements are, to my eyes, distortions and fabrications that can—and must—be refuted through a closer examination of the historical record.”

          https://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/

        • brainrein@feddit.de
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          1 year ago
          1. Was erwarten wir von ein Einwanderern? Dass sie unsere Sitten und Gebräuche achten, oder? Dass sie unsere Gesetze befolgt und sich integrieren, spätestens in der zweiten Generation, ist das zuviel verlangt? Natürlich sollen sie dazu Hilfe und Unterstützung aus der einheimischen Verwaltung erhalten, wenn sie arm sind. Daran mangelt es ja leider bei uns, weil wir viel zu lange kein Einwanderungsland sein wollten.

          2. Was denken wir von Leuten, die glauben, die Einwanderer kommen nur, um uns zu verdrängen und hier alles zu übernehmen? Offensichtlich erbärmliche paranoide Anhänger von haltlosen Verschwörungstheorien, nicht wahr.

          3. Welche Pflichten hat die Regierung eines Landes gegenüber der Bevölkerung? Sie muss dafür sorgen, dass die Bevölkerung sicher ist, sowohl physisch wie wirtschaftlich, oder? Klappt vielleicht nicht immer aber ist doch unbestritten das Ziel, etwas in dieser Richtung ist doch auch Teil des Eids, den Regierungsmitglieder gewöhnlich bei Amtsantritt leisten.

          Was aber, wenn sich die Einwanderer vom ersten Tag an explizit weigern, die Sprache zu lernen und die örtlichen Gepflogenheiten zu achten, wenn sie die Integration verweigern, nicht wegen mangelnder Bildung sondern als bewusst gesetztes politisches Statement.

          Was wenn es tatsächlich so wäre, dass die einheimische Bevölkerung verdrängt werden soll oder zumindest marginalisiert, wenn das belegbar das erklärte Ziel der Einwanderer wäre. Was wenn sie dazu die mehr oder weniger stillschweigende Zustimmung der mächtigsten Staaten der Welt hätten.

          Was wenn sie es tatsächlich schaffen, diesen Einwandererstaat zu gründen und die Herrschaft über die angestammten Einwohner zu erringen, mit terroristischen Anschlägen überlegener Waffentechnik? Wenn sie den Großteil der einheimischen Bevölkerung vertreiben und enteignen, die zurückbleibenden ausgrenzen, entrechten und terrorisieren? Ist das ordentliche Regierungsarbeit.

          Das ist kein Hirngespinst, keine Verschwörungstheorie, das ist unsere europäische Kolonialgeschichte in allen Staaten Nord- und Südamerikas, Australien, Neuseeland etc.

          Und es ist die Kolonialgeschichte des Zionismus, einer Bewegung von europäischen Juden, die in einer Zeit des wachsenden Nationalbewusstseins, Rassismus und Antisemitismus im ausgehenden 19ten Jahrhundert die Juden zu einem Volk erklärten und für dieses “Volk ohne Land” ein “Land ohne Volk” besiedeln wollten.

          Neben Palästina wurde dabei auch über Uganda und Argentinien nachgedacht. Nicht nachgedacht wurde über die Menschen die dort lebten und das Land als ihres betrachteten. Denn die Zionisten waren zwar keine Antisemiten, aber Europäer und hatten die europäische Überlegenheitsarroganz seit der Kindheit aufgesogen.

          Deutschland vernichtet die europäischen Juden. Ein europäisches Menschheitsverbrechen. Alle europäischen Länder inklusive USA, Australien etc. haben wegen ihres Antisemitismus und ihrer mangelnden Hilfsbereitschaft gegenüber den verfolgten Juden ein schlechtes Gewissen und organisierten in der UN-Generalversammlung eine Lösung mit eigenem Staat für die Juden, unter der glücklicherweise keine einzige europäische Macht zu leiden hatte.

          Sie hätten den europäischen Juden auch Schleswig-Holstein geben können. Wäre doch gerecht gewesen. (Ob wir in dem Fall wohl auch so bedingungslos auf das Existenzrecht eines jüdischen Staates bestehen würden?)

          Aber alle alten europäischen Antisemiten waren zufrieden damit, die Juden, ihre plötzlich wiedergefundenen Geschwister in christlich-jüdischer Kultur, zu den Arabern zu schicken. Weil die sind eh unwichtig. Wen interessiert was Araber denken und fühlen?

          Niemand. Bis heute. Man brabbelt was von Zweistaatenlösung aber unterstützt Israel über Jahrzehnte bedingungslos dabei, diese Lösung unmöglich zu machen.

          Meine Sicht auf den Konflikt hat sich in den letzten zwei Monaten sehr gewandelt, indem ich mir angehört habe, was jüdische Menschenrechtsaktivisten, kritische israelische Journalisten und ehemalige israelische Soldaten zum Thema zu sagen haben.

          Selbst Tschechien und Polen haben sich immerhin für die Vertreibung von Deutschen nach dem Krieg entschuldigt. Deutschland hat für den Völkermord an den Herero vor 100 Jahren um Verzeihung gebeten. Die USA und Kanada haben als bösen Makel ihrer Geschichte anerkannt, was sie den Ureinwohnern und ethnischen Minderheiten angetan haben.

          Entsprechendes ist das mindeste, verbunden mit dem Angebot einer ordentlichen Entschädigung, was die Palästinenser von Israel erwarten können.

          Und natürlich sollte Israel auch dann mit den Palästinensern verhandeln, wenn die demokratisch gewählten Verhandlungsführer Terroristen sind. Die ersten Volksvertretungen Israels waren voller ehemaliger Terroristen. Es gibt keinen besseren Weg, Terroristen zu Ex-Terroristen zu machen als mit ihnen zu verhandeln.

          • gian @lemmy.grys.it
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            1 year ago

            Foreword: I had my ideas about all this (and I will keep them for myself) and while I not completly agree with you, it’s fine we had different opinions, I have no desire to make you change yours.

            But I want to ask something, you say :

            And of course Israel should negotiate with the Palestinians even if the democratically elected negotiators are terrorists. Israel’s first parliaments were full of former terrorists. There is no better way to turn terrorists into ex-terrorists than to negotiate with them.

            I fail to understand how Israel could negotiate with the Palestinian when the elected Palestinian negotiators are terrorists that have written in their constitution (the Hamas Charter) that they need to destroy Israel (or zionist states in the new revision).

            I mean, we could negotiate but we should both do it with good faith, if one of us has as objective to destroy the other, how we could negotiate and be sure the result will be respected by both sides ?