Driverless cars were the future but now the truth is out: they’re on the road to nowhere::The dream of these vehicles ruling the roads remains just that. Focusing on public transport would be much smarter, says transport writer Christian Wolmar

  • @silverbax@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    56
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    The problem is not that driverless cars won’t be viable. The problem is the same as several other tech developments where a few startups promise tech that hasn’t matured yet, taking in billions of ‘stupid’ money from investors who are greedy but not knowledgeable about the underlying viability of what can realistically be done in a decade.

    One hundred years from now? Driverless cars will be old news, so common or maybe even surpassed with something newer. But investors want a 10 year explosion of cash, not a 50 year investment.

      • @BearOfaTime@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        171 year ago

        Aerotaxis for the rich already exist: helicopters, Gulfstream, etc.

        Or a 747 with everything inside gold plated if you’re a Saudi Prince.

        • Ech
          link
          fedilink
          English
          61 year ago

          Can’t land a helicopter at the club without a bunch of pansies whining about “public safety”, as if a few heads on the street is such a big deal.

          • @erwan@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            71 year ago

            Aerotaxis would still be aircrafts.

            I don’t know why people imagine that making an aircraft the shape of a car suddenly landing would be as simple as going to a parking lot.

            • Ech
              link
              fedilink
              English
              21 year ago

              It’s just a joke, friend.

            • eric
              link
              fedilink
              English
              11 year ago

              Air taxis are sometimes helicopters or quadcopters, and while they aren’t parking in parking lots for cars, but could still end up landing in what equates to a parking space. In New York City, they are already presenting plans to expand an air taxi hub on a pier in lower Manhattan to transport people and goods to and from the city, and it looks like a bunch of parking spaces with a logistics facility attached.

  • @jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
    link
    fedilink
    English
    561 year ago

    Self driving cars have always been a solution to the wrong problem.

    The problem isn’t really “I don’t want to steer this car”. It’s “I want to fast+safe+cheaply get from where I am, to where work/school/fun is”. So you could spend billions on machine vision and car tech to try to accomplish that, and maybe you will eventually. Or you could invest in historically proven solutions that have incredible side benefits like public transit and better zoning. Because having your self driving car cart you around suburban sprawl is still going to suck. Living spaces that are built for humans first instead of cars are better on like every metric.

    • @grabyourmotherskeys@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      25
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      I heard this guy going on about this amazing machine a company had invented to sequester carbon. They were not happy when explained that a tree does the same thing and they grow like crazy just about anywhere.

      We already know what we need to do but people don’t want to do it.

    • @Bye@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      21 year ago

      You missed part of the problem. It’s actually,

      “I want to fast+safe+cheaply get from where I am, to where work/school/fun is, and I want to do it without sharing transportation with anyone else who might be sick, annoying, crazy, or a member of an ethnic group or economic class I don’t care for”

      The good solutions for transit do not account for how much people hate being around each other. My city has phenomenal bus infrastructure, that often gets you to your destination faster than driving. But people drive anyways, because there are sick people and crazy people on the bus.

      • @jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
        link
        fedilink
        English
        11 year ago

        You’re not wrong, but I don’t really think society should bend too far to the whims of it’s most antisocial members.

        Like, if they don’t want to share the bus with a black person they can leave. And I don’t want to subsidize their selfishness by ceding space to cars, for example.

        Also that’s a bit of induced demand, probably. People drive because it’s easier. Take away the subsidies or internalize the costs of driving, and people’s habits will change.

  • @deft@ttrpg.network
    link
    fedilink
    English
    291 year ago

    It is because the tech is dumb. All cars should exist on a network together like ants don’t make them respond to bullshit other people do it will never work and it will always make mistakes with judgement.

    Or you know just give me fucking trains and trolleys

  • @spudwart@spudwart.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    251 year ago

    If only there were a way for people to take an automated vehicle from A to B safely and consistently.

    Shame no one has ever designed one of those before.

    And it’s a damn shame no one has ever designed such a thing on multiple occasions only for it to be shut down by bullshit dreams of a nonsense technology only devised to maintain a transport monopoly that depends on people spending the equivalent of a small house every 10 or so years.

  • @ApeNo1@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    181 year ago

    “ Artificial intelligence is a fancy name for the much less sexy-sounding “machine learning” “

    This article is just a plug for this guys book and if the quote above from the article is anything to go by then I doubt the book will be anything more than a poorly researched 300 page opinion piece.

    • @Moneo@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      21 year ago

      Yeah I’m mega anti-car and not at all optimistic about self-driving but this article says very little of substance.

  • @ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    151 year ago

    I wouldn’t bet against self-driving cars even now. It’s fairly clear that existing AI technology is insufficient, but we’re seeing such rapid progress in that field that a more advanced AI that can drive might be invented relatively soon.

    • @Moneo@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      81 year ago

      A perfect self-driving car is still way worse than a robust public transportation system. People are starting to catch on to the fact that cars are pretty fucking annoying/dangerous and hoping on a train/bus is less stressful. By the time self-driving is completely ready a significant portion of people are not going to want them.

      • @beebarfbadger@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        31 year ago

        Sure, but a public transportation system only vastly improves the lives of millions of people. How is that supposed to increase the bottom line of the car monopolists etc, eh? Nobody’s thinking how their selfish demands of “a comfortable life for the majority of people”, “a livable planet for future generations” or “letting the bottom 99% of the world’s population have a little money too” affects the richest few individuals on the planet - they might have to refrain from buying another couple dozen yachts or villas each year! Won’t somebody think of the poor, poor billionaires!

      • @ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        1
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Driving itself is stressful for some people but I’m not sure how simply being in a self-driving car is worse than being on a bus. I can see how public transportation might be cheaper than a self-driving taxi but I don’t see how it might be better if price isn’t an issue. Why would someone prefer a method of transportation that (1) isn’t directly door-to-door (2) runs on someone else’s schedule (3) is often much slower than driving and (4) has to be shared with strangers over a method of transportation that has none of those disadvantages?

        • @NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          21 year ago

          how simply being in a self-driving car is worse than being on a bus.

          That’s easy:

          You don’t have a good self-driving car (yet).

          Your comparison is: either being on public transport or on a level2/3 autonomous car, where you still need to watch traffic at all times and be ready to take over the steering anytime on very short notice. That is proven to be even more stressful than driving a normal car.

          And that’s going to be your choice for these next 100 years or so.

  • @dustyData@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    51 year ago

    Funny how, if we had weight and trip class segregated traffic infrastructure, walkable cities, car-free areas, etc. Then we would probably already have several successful self-driving taxi companies. As indeed, a point A to point B exclusive use highway would definitely be cheaper for mid and low density traffic areas than trains. But since everyone insists travel to be from front door to front door, then the transport network is just too complex and dangerous for the machines to deal with.

    • BombOmOm
      link
      fedilink
      English
      1
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      since everyone insists travel to be from front door to front door

      When it is wet and cold outside and you have a week’s groceries for the family, nobody wants to walk for awhile with all that crap in the cold, then get into a public transit system, then walk even further at the destination, again having to hold all their crap in the wet and cold. Is the transit system going to let one wheel a cart into it? Because I can’t hold the week’s groceries for my family with just my arms in a single trip.

      • @erwan@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        91 year ago

        There are millions of families in Tokyo (and other cities too) who don’t own a car, and manage to get their groceries without one.

        It can be done.

        But yeah it usually involves getting groceries more than once a week.

      • @agent_flounder@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        51 year ago

        If we could rethink everything from scratch we could probably easily solve that use case.

        Of course the hard part is changing from what we have now to whatever better solutions exist.

        Like, things would be better if suburbia wasn’t just an ocean of houses with sparse islands or shops. If every house was in a community with most of the basics reachable by foot… But how tf do we get to that?

        • @Moneo@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          41 year ago

          Strong Towns baybeeeee. As far as I know they recommend starting from the town center and working outwards.

          You can’t fix a suburb without demolishing it but you can revitalize areas that we’re built pre-cars. Allow mixed use development in the town center with bike lanes and public transportation. Remove parking minimums and other unnecessary barriers to development. These types of development bring in much more higher revenue which can then be reinvested into further changes.

          Iterative change is possible, don’t give up!

      • @dustyData@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        2
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Yeah, the solution to that is to have local groceries shops where you can go shopping on foot or just with a simply grocery cart walking less than 10 minutes. The idea that you have to haul several tonnes of food from 20+Km away is stupid.

        Add: I find laughable how, whenever anyone makes this kind of comments, there comes out of the woodwork the whiny manbabys who assume that it argues for taking away their cars. Read again, never did I suggest to take anyone’s car away, I’m making suggestions towards a better city, better living and better infrastructure. It says a lot that you’re so openly willing to hurt and inconvenience others to defend against an entirely imaginary threat against your 2 ton toy. A car is a tool, not a personality. And if your personality is your car, I think you have a POS personality.

        • @Xtremis77@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          71 year ago

          Nooo, 15 minute cities are a communism plot to smoother America with comfort, or something 🤦🏻‍♂️

        • @BearOfaTime@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          0
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I can walk to a grocery store. I’m not doing it when weather sucks and I have a bunch of stuff.

          And public transit to get there would be worse.

          Besides, empty busses and empty trains require as much fuel empty as with passengers. They’re not as eco friendly as you may think.

          And your assumptions about how other people live are stupid. Not everyone has the time to waste walking to get stuff.

          This idea of planned cities is naive at the best. Cities grow organically, as things change. You act like cities are static entities that can predict where things will be tomorrow. Naive at best.

          Just wait till you get older, where walking, even to the car, is uncomfortable or painful. And I’m not talking old - I was in this kind of pain in my 30’s, and still am. Walking from the car into the store sucks, and I’m not as bad off as some people.

          You can take my car from my cold, dead, no-longer- in-pain ass.

          • @Moneo@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            21 year ago

            Ah yes, there’s nothing more organic than demolishing black neighborhoods to build highways.

        • Fubarberry
          link
          fedilink
          English
          -11 year ago

          That’s only feasible if you have a small family, once you have a couple kids and are buying $300 of groceries a week it’s not at all feasible to transport that home by walking or using public transportation. Even less so if you’re having to transport the kids at the same time. Just carrying in all the food from my driveway to my house takes 15+ minutes, and that’s literally like 20 feet.

          • @Moneo@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            11 year ago

            Bruh my family would make costco trips and absolutely pack the car with groceries, I’m talking trunk full to the ceiling. That shit takes 5 minutes tops to unload with everyone helping. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill. If raising a family without a car is so difficult then why can so many people manage it fine in other countries?

        • @jmp242@sopuli.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          -31 year ago

          Yes, everyone has nothing better to do than go shopping daily for anything they need. Nevermind having stores on hand in case you can’t go to the store daily, like when we had a pandemic. Plus, we should all pay the maximum “bodega” price for everything, no buying in bulk for things to be cheaper, or just buying at a larger central location where things are cheaper.

          This just seems asinine to me.

          • @Moneo@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            41 year ago

            I suggest you do more research, it’s far from asinine. It may seem very strange to someone who has lived their entire life in a car centric city but these ideas have been applied in many cities successfully. The results are a healthier and happier populace.

      • @jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
        link
        fedilink
        English
        21 year ago

        You don’t have to get a week’s worth of groceries when you don’t live in a car-first dystopia.

        You walk five minutes to the store, spend 5-10 minutes grabbing stuff, then walk back with like a single bag. You shouldn’t even need to get on public transit for basics like groceries, but even if you do a single bag isn’t a problem.

        • @CmdrShepard@lemmy.one
          link
          fedilink
          English
          11 year ago

          How many people live a 5 minute walk from a grocery store? I think the closest one to me is about 5 miles away in a city of 250k+. That’d be like a 4 hour round trip walk on average.

          • @Moneo@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            61 year ago

            How many people live a 5 minute walk from a grocery store?

            That’s part of what we want to change. I live a 3 min walk from the grocery store and it’s fucking glorious. Better designed cities are better for everyone.

            • @CmdrShepard@lemmy.one
              link
              fedilink
              English
              11 year ago

              My main problem with this line of thinking is that our cities already exist as they are, and it would take Herculean effort from the government, citizens, and companies in order to raze and rebuild them in a more ideal way.

              My city passed mixed use zoning to tackle exactly this years ago and nothing has changed.

          • @jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
            link
            fedilink
            English
            31 year ago

            Where do you live that has grocery so far apart? Are you actually in the city or like a suburb of it?

            I’m in Brooklyn. I can’t speak to all of Brooklyn but this neighborhood has a population of 100k from Wikipedia. Where my friend used to live wikipedia says is about 120k, and they had good walkable options.

        • BombOmOm
          link
          fedilink
          English
          -6
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          You walk five minutes to the store, spend 5-10 minutes grabbing stuff, then walk back with like a single bag.

          That is an incredibly large amount of time over the week spent doing this task; literally hours per week if we are talking 5 min walk each way plus 10 min in store every day. This is much longer than condensing the 7 trips into 1 and buying in bulk. And it still doesn’t solve the having to go outside in cold and wet weather. Not to mention any grocery store this close is going to be at bodega prices, so we are talking spending more money as well.

          This isn’t a solution. This is a way to spend even more time and even more money while one has to be outside hauling stuff in the cold and wet weather.

          • @jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
            link
            fedilink
            English
            31 year ago

            You don’t have to go every day. You can also take a hand cart if you really want to stock up. It’s also just much less of an ordeal to walk down the street and grab some things than it is to deal with the car, traffic, parking, gas.

            You have to go outside in the cold weather when you drive, too. Plus you’re more likely to get in an accident if it’s very rainy or icy. Not a compelling argument.

            Foot traffic is also better for the neighborhood in terms of economic and social health (see: Death & Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs).

            I live within walking distance of several large supermarkets, in addition to bodegas and smaller groceries. I don’t live in a fancy or expensive neighborhood. I don’t know why you think that there would only be expensive places near where people live.

            Also even if it was spending more money on food because you only live next to an expensive bodega, you’re ignoring the huge externalized costs of car-first culture. Pollution, pedestrian deaths, opportunity cost from lack of walking, economic loss from lack of foot traffic, safety loss from lack of foot traffic, and so on.

  • @cbarrick@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    21 year ago

    Waymo seems to be the best and most successful robotaxi service. My friends in Pittsburgh and the Bay speak highly of them.

    But it’s a shame that none of the other robotaxi companies in the US were able to succeed.

    We had a thriving robotaxi scene in Pittsburgh (R&D, no actual taxis), mostly because of CMU. But most of the work has shutdown since the pandemic (Uber ATG, Aurora, …). Waymo still seems to be doing well here though.

    • @Wanderer@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      1
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Waymo the one.

      Just because most of the other car companies are full of shit doesn’t mean waymo isn’t making slow yet consistent gains in the area. It might take 5 years it might take 10. But mass roll out of self driving cars is coming.

      We are just in the “this touchscreen phone isn’t ever going to take off” part of history.

  • AutoTL;DRB
    link
    English
    01 year ago

    This is the best summary I could come up with:


    Moreover, the recent withdrawal from the market of a leading provider of robotaxis in the US, coupled with the introduction of strict legislation in the UK, suggests that the developers’ hopes of monetising the concept are even more remote than before.

    The attempt to produce a driverless car started in the mid-00s with a challenge by a US defence research agency, offering a $1m prize for whoever could create one capable of making a very limited journey in the desert.

    In 2010, at the Shanghai Expo, General Motors had produced a video showing a driverless car taking a pregnant woman to hospital at breakneck speed and, as the commentary assured the viewers, safely.

    It was precisely the promise of greater safety, cutting the terrible worldwide annual roads death toll of 1.25m, that the sponsors of driverless vehicles dangled in front of the public.

    The trouble is there are an enormous number of potential use cases, ranging from the much-used example of a camel wandering down Main Street to a simple rock in the road, which may or may not just be a paper bag.

    That is why it is clearly a misplaced priority on the part of the government, headed by tech bro Rishi Sunak, to put forward a bill on autonomous vehicles while sidelining plans to reform the railways or legislate for electric scooters, which are in a legal no man’s land.


    The original article contains 1,036 words, the summary contains 233 words. Saved 78%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

    • @kattenluik@feddit.nl
      link
      fedilink
      English
      11 year ago

      I don’t really understand why you’re getting downvoted, if you ever genuinely thought about them and how they’d possibly ever be implemented you would’ve figured out it was a dumb idea very quickly.