Still better than the official reddit app.
Smoke signals would be better than the official app.
I’ve considered switching to carrier pigeons
Do I have the proposal for you! RFC2549
All you need are two tin cans joined by string.
I know some pensioners in my neighbourhood that’d love to talk to you about that.
A message in a bottle is easier to use. Also, the maintenance cost is negligible, since the system is powered by renewable wave energy. The only downside is the lag, which can vary from a few days to several centuries.
Just not using the app is better than using the app.
I can’t fathom how they bought a good app, put a dev “team” on it for 7 years, and still don’t have half the features some neckbeards in their mom’s basements without access to the backeng still managed to put into their apps.
What a pack of incompetent fucks.
Sounds like they lucked out into an awesome job with no real work required.
A surprisingly low bar
So true.
I want to be mad but FFS Reddit had Conde Nast money for most of its shittery so they had NO excuse except incompetence.
At least Fediverse servers are typically Steve’s old laptop or some shit so it’s understandable.
It’s generally more like “Steve’s 10 eur/mo cloud server in which they run ten other things next to Lemmy, which is written by two devs and barely held together by duct tape and prayers”
But that doesn’t change the overall point.
it’s that cheap? If I spun up an instance and paid less than $150 how many users would I be able to have before it implodes?
The instance I’m replying from is a 5 eur/mo box from Hetzner.
Your main concerns are gonna be active user count & storage space. Especially if you decide to allow image or god forbid video uploads. Having a bunch of inactive users aren’t going to affect costs that much as long as they don’t have, like, a milion subscriptions. (If they’re all subscribed to the same community things will “deduplicate”)
Do you have any specific resources or suggestions? I’m a software dev with lots of DigitalOcean experience looking to host my own instance. Also, can you log in to wefwef through your instance, or how do you access everything, specifically on mobile?
Depending on how well you know your way around, my recommendation is to not use the Ansible setup but instead treat it as documentation while doing things your way. It has quite a bit of strange stuff going on (postfix? two nginx installs with only one being in a container?) and seems to be missing important things such as SSH hardening. It also assumes it’ll be the only thing running in your server just in general (horrible yet common practice, unfortunately) so if you have anything set up it may or may not clobber over it to do things it’s own way, and end up breaking something.
Also, can you log in to wefwef through your instance, or how do you access everything, specifically on mobile?
I haven’t tried wefwef in particular but all native apps I tried work just fine. An issue I can see cropping up from wefwef is that Lemmy’s CORS policies are way too restrictive by default. No idea if they do any kind of proxying to get around that but that would be the main issue I’d imagine.
What’s the learning curve like? That honestly seems like a much bigger hurdle than cost.
The installation itself is pretty simple, every piece of lemmy lives in a docker container, so they should work right out of the box. The admin configuration has a slightly unintuitive UI but alas very few things to do, so really small leaning curve.
There are many guides on getting started with Linux servers as a whole. I recommend installing Debian Bookworm on a virtual machine or a spare laptop at first and going through the writeups all major cloud providers have, just to get a feel for using the terminal & initial setup (SSH hardening and reverse proxy configuration and so on)
After getting an initial feel for Linux admining, start reading up on Docker, Docker Compose, and containers in general. Avoid Podman until you’re experienced with Docker as it’s just different enough to trip you up. You can also check out LXC/LXD although it’s way less popular.
Oh, and speaking of Docker: UFW AND DOCKER WILL NOT WORK TOGETHER! DOCKER BYPASSES UFW (just making sure you don’t learn this until it’s too late)
Be careful of guides that are old (even a year makes a difference) or for different “distros” than the one you have. An exception for the second case is the Arch Linux wiki, which is one of the best resources just in general, aside from a few Arch specific bits like the exact package names to install. You should also use Arch’s “man pages” reference, as they’re built from the latest versions of packages compared to other man page renderers that are frequently outdated (like die.net)
Lemmy itself is harder to get right because the instructions so far are intended for people who kinda know what they’re doing, but once you have the base Linux admin knowledge, it won’t be that hard to pick up the parts necessary to get working with something like Lemmy.
Only one way to find out ;)
On a more serious note… I’m not sure if much has changed since then (probably, things have been moving fast…), but lemmy.world was hosted on about a $150 / mo server:
https://blog.mastodon.world/ https://www.hetzner.com/dedicated-rootserver/matrix-ax (it’s the most expensive option here)
That’s pretty beefy. You could probably get away with much less for a smaller instance.
But…but…spez said it will cause 200k per month!
That’s because he wants all 55 million active users accessing his servers so he shove ads down their throats.
To be fair, Reddit is a lot bigger than any Lemmy instance, and Lemmy instances have the benefit of being decentralised, so the load is on many different servers owned by different people as opposed to one group of servers owned by one company.
Sounds like a challenge
Good point. Who the hell hosts their own server anymore?
I have never seen this version before, this is fantastic.
Honestly, it’s negligent if a major company does host their own servers at this point. Big cloud server companies specialize in that and can do it better than others, with better guarantees of stability and maintenance. Pretty much the reason people specialize in everything else.
What you’re saying here is literally a punchline in infosec because of how many breaches are down to incompetent cloud service providers, because said cloud service providers take security about as seriously as the aforementioned c-suite does.
*EDIT No, the c-suite thing doesn’t make sense. Shut up. I recast this post and removed a bit. I don’t need your approval. I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS
Lol what? Every server has down time. But the big cloud companies have actual liability for theirs
You are entirely ignorant of how anything works. There’s no “liability” unless they seriously fuck a goat. Downtime is expected and, in fact, built into contracts. X amount of downtime for service, Y amount for unforeseen circumstances, Z amount for shiggles. There may be some prorating built into it, but even that will be after a certain amount of downtime.
No matter how you slice it the only reason anyone uses cloud services is to cut costs. There actual facts simply do not pan out when you’re talking about security.
Those contracts are exactly what I mean. A certain, small amount of downtime is allowed for, and it’s expected to be fixed shortly. If either of those things aren’t true, then the business is in breach of that agreement.
Anyway no u r ignorant. Peace out
No matter how you slice it the only reason anyone uses cloud services is to cut costs.
Businesses chose cloud providers because they think that it will cut costs.
You will pay, sweetly, for that added uptime, however.
But I know where OC was coming from, 15-25 years ago it would have been the crap old laptop, the cardboard box server, the DEC PDP-11 the University is still powering for some reason.
… the PDP-11 😂
it’s that cheap? If I spun up an instance and paid less than $150 how many users would I be able to have before it implodes?
About tree fiddy
Reddit’s database was pretty poorly designed. They designed it to be really flexible so they could make changes easily early on, but it was highly inefficient. I don’t know if it’s still like that, but the old website’s source code is public and it is very inefficient.
The big user experience problem is everyone is getting funneled into Lemmy.world and Lemmy.ml, and they can’t scare fast enough.
But Lemmy is federated. So signup for a smaller instance. You’ll still be able to subscribe and post to communities on other instances.
Ha, I applied to two smaller instances and have heard nothing but radio silence. The smaller instances are of no help if they don’t let anyone in.
Use and recommend lemm.ee, lemmy.one, and vlemmy.net to others
Seriously, stop recommending large servers when lemmy hasn’t been optimized for that yet. The point of decentralization is spreading out and still being connected; let’s not waste that advantage.
I run https://thelemmy.club - people are always welcome here :)
Ok, but what if the instance I choose just ends suddenly? Do I understand it correctly that on each one I have to create a new account and re-subscribe to all the communities etc,?
That’s correct though account migration is planned for some point in the future, or at least noted as a desirable feature by the Devs. Maybe even linking accounts across instances?
Having to resubscribe to all your communities is annoying but I imagine third party apps could streamline that process when they get released/refined.
Aside from what Coelacanth said, those instances are no more likely to shut down than lemmy.world (I can’t recall a Lemmy instance that’s not for personal use ever shutting down); they’ve functioned just fine for years and have even been upgraded for the surge of users too
Lemmy.fmhy.ml shutdown and hasnt come back yet. My understanding is that it won’t be back, but that was the instance I signed up for initially to spread the server load
well this just happened with vlemmy.net, i was affected by this and had to manually resubscribe to 50 communities and recreate one, because of this someone made a tool to download your data off of lemmy and upload it to another instance https://github.com/CMahaff/lasim
Where my VLemmy peeps at?!? 🙌
Me!
Yeah, boooyyyyyy! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
👋
Up high… 🙌
🙌
Yo!
Boo yaa! 👊
Aussie.zone
But isn’t this the main website? Why can’t I use it?
There is no ‘main’ website. It’s all connected. People just started joining that because it’s big and overloaded it, and now it’s having federation and stability issues.
I am new here so sorry for asking this, but am I expected to join the same communities on 75 different Lemmy clones?
Federation means you can search for your community on your instance and it will fetch all the information if you want to subscribe. I am writing this comment with my account on feddit.de. I just switched to the „all“ feed, which shows all content from all servers feddit federated with. If I am looking up a new community to join like communityname@servername.tdl feddit will copy the posts for mento be able to interact with them. My reactions will be synched back.
I just created two communities: Sudoku, and Nonograms, in Lemmy World. Can you see them?
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Fair point. Tye small one’s Re being hugged to death and aren’t letting any more people in, so people are gravitating towards the juggernauts, and the juggernauts are collapsing under their weight. 
Next couple weeks should be interesting
My instance (civilloquy.com) has open sign-ups. ;)
I started on lemmy.ml but it was unusable for the past few days. Today I managed to get into programming.dev pretty quickly and it has been smooth sailing.
When I first joined, I never got a confirmation that my account had been accepted. After a few minutes, I just typed the username and password I used during registration and I was able to log in.
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When I applied, I never got a notification that it got approved, but I could post and comment on that instance. So you might have been in a similar situation as me or the admins are still dealing with a large influx of people
Oh wow you’re totally right. I was just able to log into one that I had never heard from! Thank you, good call!
try mine.
Good for you. I’d been trying that for months with no success. Finally .world let me in last week.
I was on world at first because I thought each instance was its own subreddit, so I went with the one with the most users! After a day and a half I somewhat understand instances now and have switched to a smaller one. Hopefully other reddit refugees will do it too.
Thanks for being so welcoming and patient with us. I’m really glad to be here.
Are you avoiding all interaction with the communities on lemmy.world, also? I’m not clear if I should just avoid using this .world account, or if I should avoid all .world communities to prevent overloading.
Just the account. If you post to lemmy.world from different instance, it’s ok. Though be prepared that users may see your post with a delay depending on the state of lemmy.world.
No I’m not avoiding anything at all. I personally switched instances, just to try and ease the load on the .world server while we flooded in here. I’m sure they would appreciate you switching to another one. I found my countries one, a bonus is that it comes with my local communities! Don’t be put off by the smaller populated instances.
Also juuussssttt in case you weren’t sure, generally speaking you have access to the same content between instances (some are more strict than others and don’t allow certain content like NSFW stuff, but they do tell you in advance).
That’s where join-lemmy really missed out. They should have introduced a set of rules like join-mastodon where instances must have at least two admins, a clear code of conduct, and clear rules as to how they manage closedown. That way users would be reasonably safe in picking an instance at random. But they didn’t so everyone should go to safe choices like lemmy.world.
Everyone keeps saying to join the smaller instances, but the reason people aren’t is because they are harder to find and usually have application gates thrown up. Because you can’t apply through the app, and because I am on mobile, I don’t even know how many Instances I applied for and then forgot what the instance was even called by the time they may or may not have approved.
All of this needs to be laid out better from the get-go. Even simply listing a server strain metric or warning (even if it’s something admins set themselves) would be useful.
a server strain metric or warning
Ha, that would be really useful in directing the flow especially at times like this.
Unless it defederates like beehaw keeps doing.
What’s going on with beehaw? I’m a bit out of the loop.
Beehaw is a community that wants to create a specific type of experience for its users, it wants to create a safer space and has stricter rules.
I think it’s personally a non-issue that people get riled up about. They’ve temporarily defederated from lemmy.world because of the large spikes in new users and wanting to have the moderation tools necessary to handle that while keeping their community the way they want it.
There is a subset of new Lemmy users who think this experience needs to be Reddit 2.0, that it needs to be perfect and totally smooth for new users, or else it will fail?
Personally, I don’t agree. I don’t want Lemmy to be Reddit at all. In the last month, I’ve found that I didn’t realize just how bad my Reddit experience had become. I’m okay with the experience being a little rough around the edges here and adjusting together. It has become obvious based on how good my interactions were here. How solid and interesting the content was. I’m not fiending for my specific subreddits, I’m good to move on and find new areas to focus on the internet.
I have a separate account for Beehaw, all the iOS apps already have way way better functionality than the Reddit official app, I can seamlessly switch between accounts. It’s been absolutely amazing to see how much this site and experience has evolved in one month. I’m super excited for the future here.
I like the rough around the edges. Little tricks and nuances I’ve picked up. Makes it fun.
One thing I don’t miss is the “culture”… I hope this shift into the fediverse frees comment sections of the endless same dumb low effort puns, and even worse puns in the replies. Or fucking award speeches in comment edits, the same shitty jokes that nobody likes but somehow still perpetuate…
I really look forward to something new
I’m late to the conversation. Yeah, that’s what I hated about Reddit. I’ve been using it since 2009, and I noticed that it got progressively worse the moment they introduced karma.
All in all, they have some of the biggest communities for gay folks, Trans folks, and other minority groups. Lots of trolls from large open instances were shit posting lots of hateful crap in those communities.
The Lemmy’s mod tools are still kind of janky and they couldn’t keep pace with the toxic trolling, so they made the call to defederate from instances like Lemmy.world temporarily, until some new mod tools get built.
All the admins from the defederated instances get it and they all appear to be on the same page.
That said, users got pissed because beehaw has one of the best tech communities. So now people on Lemmy.world don’t have their posts / comments show up in those communities.
Basically, they had two shitty options, and they went with protecting the vulnerable minority.
It’s temporary.
Beehaw defederated from other instances as users were getting around bans by creating new accounts on those instances. The admins in question are talking about how to address this.
Federating bans?
Lemmy isn’t really set up for that. Its current structure is such doesn’t allow for that, and developers are still trying to do more for new user verification.
This is something that larger websites spend a ton of money and developer time to fight, which is something Lemmy currently doesn’t have.
Right now there is not even a notification to the original instance that an user has been banned on some other one’s community. That means people can follow the rules on their home instance, like by not participating, while freely breaking them on federated ones, without their home instance admins ever knowing… until some other instance’s admin either contacts them directly, or defederates the whole instance.
Hell we don’t even federate usernames which I find extremely problematic. But we’ll get there… I hope.
How would that work though?
Basically, due to the size and open registrations on some large instances, Beehaw admins decided to defederate because they didn’t have the manpower or systems in place to deal with the large volume of content.
I think I read that they have 4 people running everything and 2 aren’t techy.
They are overly sensitive special snowflakes that pipi their pampers if anybody that doesn’t have 100% the same opinions as them is allowed to use the internet
Motives aside, the point is one account won’t always get you everywhere. Doing a little research before picking a home instance can’t hurt.
But why do I have separate profiles for each instance? Is it because I signed up in three instances? Is the only way to rectify this, to delete accounts?
Imagine if you registered an email address with gmail, hotmail, and iCloud. You’d have three separate inboxes.
And like email, which is also federated, you don’t need a gmail address to message gmail people, or a hotmail address to message hotmail people. You can signup with one domain / instance, and subscribe to communities from another domain / instance.
What does it mean to say that Lemmy is federated?
Basically there are many different Lemmy servers. Http://lemmy.world Http://lemmy.ml Http://shit.just.works Etc etc
It doesn’t matter which one you sign up for. Most of them talk to one another. For example. Lemmy.ml people can subscribe to and read Lemmy.world communities.
Lemmy can also talk to other “fediverse” social media platforms like Kbin. You often see a lot of Kbin users in Lemmy comments.
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The problem is that it uses WebSockets in a completely braindead way. There is absolutely zero reason to waste server resources on that for every single user. Of course it fails to scale…
Well you’re in luck because Lemmy 0.18 rips out all WebSocket code.
The real magic is that you don’t even have to use Lemmy. You can use Kbin if you like that interface better.
What happens to the communities on lemmy.world and lemmy.ml if they’re no longer around? It seems like the most active communities are mostly on those two instances.
A good example is what just happened with beehaw. Beehaw cut ties with lemmy.world temporarily until some new mod tools roll out.
If you were subbed to a beehaw community from lemmy.world, you can still post to that community, but only LW people can see the post. You can use that capability to tell people to migrate away to a new home.
Or, if an instance gets big and valuable, I’m sure their will people champing at the bit to take on the domain and instance if the OG admin wants out.
How does that work? Still confused.
Basically, in the beehaw example, all of Lemmy.world’s messages to beehaw communities are kind of stuck in an old deprecated beehaw outbox that is not being checked by beehaw. Lemmy.world people can see all the messages sitting in their beehaw outbox, but beehaw ain’t coming to get their mail, and they’re no longer sending mail to Lemmy.world.
So signup for a smaller instance
Unless you want to create a community on that instance. You can only create communities in the instance you sign up.
…so create your community on that instance. Others will still be able to access it just like you’re accessing communities elsewhere.
Some instances disallow community creation. That’s the only part where this argument has any merit. Otherwise which instance a community is on doesn’t really matter.
Technically it doesn’t matter, but I expect communities will take off better in instances better suited to it. I doubt a gaming community on lemmy.ca will become the massive gaming community. I doubt c/Toronto will take off in a UK instance. Etc.
Given the… frankly absurd rate at which people are signing up to servers, and subscribing to other servers, and posting and commenting and upvoting and…
I mean it’s getting a bit hairy, and user growth was already following a very steep growth curve. Reddifugees are hugging all instances to death.
It really is a defining moment for Lemmy. If the devs can’t adapt quickly enough to handle the traffic, I doubt many Reddifugees will stick around.
Depends what timelines and what types of users were talking about, in my opinion. Users migrating who have contributed good content and/or moderation should have the patience to get through most of the growing pains. Casual users who show up just to browse and maybe up or downvote a few things don’t add a lot of value up front anyway, so the attrition of those users won’t matter too much in the long run. Those types of users will likely be back in the future once the kinks get worked out, or will be replaced by users of the same type. Patience is the game.
I’m probably here to stay. Maybe not Lemmy specifically, but i’ve already joined Mastodon once and then bailed and things have only gotten worse since then. It’s either this or Tumblr and my Tumblr account is still all jacked. Or maybe Cohost or Pillowfort will start drawing people in? I’d take one of those, too.
But even if i have to run my own Lemmy instance i don’t want to go back to some privately owned site that’s just going to have the same cycle kill it again
I’m already seeing vastly improved performance, so I think the worst of the lag from recent updates is behind us.
It just feels so weird to have big threads with good fresh discussions going on hours after the post.
Not to say there isn’t an occasional asshole here and there during this wave, but I don’t think reddit has ever felt like this at any point.
Would upvote but I keep getting server-side errors
That’s interesting but have you considered that Value <html> of type java.lang.String cannot be converted to JSONObject?
And here I am laughing on my speedy private instance. For real, the best part of Lemmy is if your experience is bad you can hop to a different instance and not miss a post
Question about this, is it just a speedier general browsing on other instances as well? Or just your local posts?
Everything is faster. For the most part, your local instance will download posts and comments for any community you (or anyone else on your instance) is subscribed to. So when you log in, you log into your server and browse the content locally (posts from everywhere) while your server in the background constantly is receiving updates through the ActivityPub protocol.
I literally have no delay in using Lemmy in any way.
What about the “all” stream? Is that also preloaded to the server?
The “all” stream would be all of the posts from the combined subs of the users on the instance. So if there’s a community nobody is subscribed to, it won’t appear on all. This is true of all instances. Many smaller ones will employ bots to crawl Lemmy and sub to communities to give the large instance “all” feeling.
That being said, yeah it’s all preloaded onto your local server. There is no difference in speed. Doesn’t matter if it’s active/subed or new/all they all load the same
I’d highly encourage everyone to find smaller instances and leave lemmy.world for the immediate expats. Find something that aligns with your values. Or if you are technically literate enough host your own instance. If you have an old desktop computer you’ve already got everything you need.
I should probably build an instance on my little home server. Is there a guide for that somewhere?
Right on the lemmy website. 🙂
https://join-lemmy.org/docs/administration/administration.html
It can apparently take up a decent amount of space depending on how many communities you subscribe to.
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ansible
There you go, enjoy
How many communities you subscribed and after two weeks how much data does it represents on your storage ?
Not OP but I can answer with my own stats:
In just a week, With BTRFS compression (compress-force=zstd:3) & deduplication (via bees), media is at about 1GB (and I am subscribed to media-heavy communities like 196) and the postgres DB is at about 550MB (which is also currently shared with Matrix Dendrite)
At “idle” (as you can be while being connected to ActivityPub & Matrix), the immediate CPU and RAM usage breakdown per container is:
NAME CPU % MEM USAGE / LIMIT MEM % NET IO BLOCK IO PIDS CPU TIME AVG CPU % pict-rs 0.20% 18.92MB / 4.005GB 0.47% 3.319GB / 1.105GB 17.58GB / 3.239GB 13 1h16m57.232828s 0.59% crowdsec 1.39% 44.23MB / 4.005GB 1.10% 106.4MB / 23.46MB 25.53GB / 486.7MB 11 45m28.744419s 1.95% caddy 0.63% 73.06MB / 4.005GB 1.82% 1.675GB / 1.977GB 3.322GB / 720MB 10 21m9.94572s 0.90% dendrite 1.58% 197.7MB / 4.005GB 4.94% 912.8MB / 2.33GB 8.718GB / 4.761GB 12 53m26.302022s 1.43% postgres 5.33% 82.51MB / 4.005GB 2.06% 56.22GB / 7.961GB 20.92GB / 295.7GB 23 8h20m28.078567s 2.86% lemmy-ui 0.00% 48.71MB / 4.005GB 1.22% 3.491GB / 5.961GB 3.603GB / 5.267GB 12 31m35.884936s 0.24% lemmy-be 2.82% 29.01MB / 4.005GB 0.72% 16.45GB / 57.85GB 7.966GB / 6.439GB 6 3h6m34.633508s 1.42%Net IO you shouldn’t really care about as that includes inter-container networking. I’m trying to find how much outgoing data have been transferred but because the month just ended I have no idea how accurate the numbers are.
On my instance we’ve got about 100 communities subscribed to. Started it first week of June, since then the instance is up to a little over 4 GB of disk space. YMMV depending on instance size.
I do that on my own instance too :D, private and small instances are really the way to go!
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Looks like the app wasn’t developed with a scalable architecture from the start, then they strapped some caching out of desperation when users started flocking, and didn’t consider the invalidation parameters for private pages correctly.
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It’s a little bit baffling. It’s not like they couldn’t have predicted this server load. I know it’s tricky to foresee bottlenecks in some situations but them adding caching (a very basic thing for scalability) at the last minute belies a lack of either experience, forethought, or knowledge, I am not sure which.
I wonder if anyone has been me
I have been you, SwallowsDick
Holy shit! It there a never tell me the odds community here? This fits like a glove
Did you report this (on GitHub possibly)? That seems to be a fairly important bug for the devs to get their head around.
Here’s Johnny!
It’s early days here. Give it some time…
It’s part of the charm :D
Agreed! Lemmy kinda captures the same sense of excitement and experimentation that the early internet seemed to have.
For real! Seems like everyone jumped ship and expects a flawless integration from Reddit. This tech is relatively new and provided by volunteers. Give it some time!
Especially with the massive influx of users on this instance. I for one am quite happy with the admins and how they’re holding up during this. lol
Does the Narwhal bacon again?
Oh god
Only at midnight.
cries
You are my first upvote and this is my first comment
Hopefully this turns into something
Nope. I’m trying to hold my poop for three days
Not anymore…
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For those of you who, like me, are coming from Apollo you guys can try wefwef.app. It’s great
It’s a nice app, but I’m really wondering who came up with that name and why. That’s not how you name something if you want it to be successful.
I know this night sound like a dumb comment, but it’s kind of worth thinking about.
Since it isn’t an iOS app, they could probably make a version of it which isn’t so iOS inspired, because frankly that layout is confusing to anyone who isn’t used to it.
I know Apple have a way of doing things, and they’re like apps to look a certain way, but if you’re not used to it it’s not intuitive at all.
That looks great, thanks!
To be fair, it worked well right before reddit cut off api access. This will probably happen everytime reddit does something stupid to drive away users. In other words, it could happen every two week based on how spez is lately.
I forgive it. It has tremendous potential
This is definitely going to be fun!
It’s great to be here. All part of the fun of being apart of something new.
I feel much as I did 12 years ago when I created my reddit account. I feel the winds of change in my bones.
The instances are volunteer-ran and make no profit, give them some time to iron everything out
Where do i donate?
Look at the sidebar info on your instance, there should be links for donations.
