Every sourcing I have seen comes more from the UK as a way to shorten patrol and the argument that it is an ethnic slur against predominantly Irish police forces is similar to “cracker” in that… can you REALLY be that racist against the oppressors?
Irish people were actually considered “non-white” throughout most of the history of race as a concept. They were only recently recategorized by racists when they felt their numbers dwindling and decided to expand the tent a little.
Irish people have suffered from a history of explicitly racist oppression; calling them “the oppressors” flies directly in the face of history. Their skin colour may be white, but the history of their relationship with race as a power structure is far more complex.
This does not mean that it’s impossible for Irish people to be racist themselves, or for Irish people to embrace “white” as an identity. Race is complicated; that’s exactly why trying to adopt simplistic attitudes to it never works.
Irish people were actually considered “non-white” throughout most of the history of race as a concept.
That’s a myth. I’ve seen the Ellis Island records of my Irish ancestors’ arrival in the US. There’s a Race box, and what was filled in for them (and others with Irish surnames that I noticed) was WHITE.
Note that Irish immigrants could own property, get bank accounts and credit, and could vote. They held public office from early in the wave of immigration. In the Western US, the earliest English-speaking settlers included a large percentage of Irish-Americans (including several of my ancestors). There was prejudice in hiring, and in boarding houses. But these were informal, at a time when there were formal legal barriers against Black Americans and Chinese immigrants.
It’s perfectly possible to be classified as white but still oppressed for other reasons. In the US in the 19th and early 20th century, that reason was mainly anti-Catholic prejudice, followed by classism. The KKK were against the Irish because of their Catholicism, as is shown by contemporary pamphlets and records of speeches. And those were the same reasons the English were so virulently anti-Irish-- those and the fact that the Irish were living on some land that they wanted to steal.
This does not mean that it’s impossible for Irish people to be racist themselves
The Draft Riots in New York city during the Civil War provides an illustrative example of that. Also memoirs of some of my ancestors (one was quite proud of his role in making his town in New Mexico a sunset town). Anti-Chinese racism was also widespread and violent in the West.
You need to read up on the history of the Irish in the UK and how they were treated by the English very much as a distinct race, and one that they thought it was very much OK to abuse.
Here’s a quote from the Rev. Charles Kingsley, a Victorian theologian and defender of Darwinism;
I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw [in Ireland] . . . I don’t believe they are our fault. . . . But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much. . . ."
Literally describing Irish people as subhuman. This attitude was wildly popular in England. Even in the eighties and nineties it was still common for occupation troops in Northern Ireland to refer to the Irish as “white n****rs”. This attitude, that the Irish are subhuman, justified horrific acts of racial violence that happened in my lifetime, and probably yours.
The Irish have been the targets of military occupation, police abuse, disenfranchisement and genocide, all on the basis of what the English very much considered to be their “race.”
Again, America is not the world. There are whole layers of complex interactions of identity happening out there beyond your borders.
Yes, the Irish were (and kind of still are) looked down upon by “Whites”.
They historically chose to address that by becoming cops. Oppressors. The idea being that if they were useful they would at least be better than the brown and yellow people. And irish cops have caused untold horrors amongst labor and minorities.
So while I disagree that “paddy wagon” is an Irish slur so much as MAYBE it is a cop slur, it is close enough that I’ll refrain from using it. But it is still the same issue as with “cracker” where… you are gonna have to try a whole hell of a lot harder for me to care if people’s feelings are hurt that folk don’t appreciate how many skulls they cracked in the name of impressing the crackers.
But you do see how you’re very much engaging in stereotyping by saying that “They historically chose to address that by becoming cops” as if somehow a) all Irish people in America became cops, and b) the experiences of the Irish diaspora in America are somehow representative of all Irish people… Right?
Like, seriously, go ask some Irish people in Northern Ireland how they feel about cops some time. Depending on who you ask you’re guaranteed to get some wildly different answers.
Again. IF we decide that “paddy wagon” is a slur toward the Irish, it is specifically a slur toward Irish cops. And fuck the police.
Simple as that.
Like I said, I’ll try to avoid it in the future because even though there is very little evidence that it is even a slur toward Irish cops, it sounds enough like one that I would rather avoid it. But I am not gonna lose ANY sleep over oppressors getting their fee fees hurt because people don’t like them.
If black people had joined police forces in large numbers for a variety of very complex historical reasons, would you be defending “N****r Wagon” as a perfectly acceptable term right now?
If black people had joined the air force in very large numbers and abused other ethnic and socioeconomic groups as a way to ingratiate themselves to the crackers and we decided to call them “smackers”? I would have zero problems and would whole heartedly say that.
And if someone suddenly decided that “black helicopter” is more a reference to African American pilots? I would do some research, figure out that is instead referring to night flight painting, and probably still avoid using the phrase while not caring all that much.
Speaking of: What are your thoughts on the term “cracker”? Because you clearly don’t understand the difference between a slur that is meant to degrade a human being and one that is meant to refer to an oppressor.
I have no problem with cracker, because exactly as you say, it’s a reaction against institutional power, not an exercise of it.
But “Paddy” has a long history as a term of racist abuse against a deeply disenfranchised racial minority. I’m not sure if you’re even aware that it was widely used outside of the context of the phrase “Paddy wagon.” From the way you’re discussing this, it seems like you’re not.
If a black cop arrests you it’s not suddenly praxis to refer to him by racial slurs just because he’s a cop. Call him a pig or a narc or whatever anti-cop term you like, fucking go off, but excusing racism when it’s specifically against cops is just saying that it’s OK to be racist sometimes, and that’s not something I can remotely agree with.
Every sourcing I have seen comes more from the UK as a way to shorten patrol and the argument that it is an ethnic slur against predominantly Irish police forces is similar to “cracker” in that… can you REALLY be that racist against the oppressors?
But tweaked anyway. Thanks.
Irish people were actually considered “non-white” throughout most of the history of race as a concept. They were only recently recategorized by racists when they felt their numbers dwindling and decided to expand the tent a little.
Irish people have suffered from a history of explicitly racist oppression; calling them “the oppressors” flies directly in the face of history. Their skin colour may be white, but the history of their relationship with race as a power structure is far more complex.
This does not mean that it’s impossible for Irish people to be racist themselves, or for Irish people to embrace “white” as an identity. Race is complicated; that’s exactly why trying to adopt simplistic attitudes to it never works.
That’s a myth. I’ve seen the Ellis Island records of my Irish ancestors’ arrival in the US. There’s a Race box, and what was filled in for them (and others with Irish surnames that I noticed) was WHITE.
Note that Irish immigrants could own property, get bank accounts and credit, and could vote. They held public office from early in the wave of immigration. In the Western US, the earliest English-speaking settlers included a large percentage of Irish-Americans (including several of my ancestors). There was prejudice in hiring, and in boarding houses. But these were informal, at a time when there were formal legal barriers against Black Americans and Chinese immigrants.
It’s perfectly possible to be classified as white but still oppressed for other reasons. In the US in the 19th and early 20th century, that reason was mainly anti-Catholic prejudice, followed by classism. The KKK were against the Irish because of their Catholicism, as is shown by contemporary pamphlets and records of speeches. And those were the same reasons the English were so virulently anti-Irish-- those and the fact that the Irish were living on some land that they wanted to steal.
The Draft Riots in New York city during the Civil War provides an illustrative example of that. Also memoirs of some of my ancestors (one was quite proud of his role in making his town in New Mexico a sunset town). Anti-Chinese racism was also widespread and violent in the West.
You need to read up on the history of the Irish in the UK and how they were treated by the English very much as a distinct race, and one that they thought it was very much OK to abuse.
Here’s a quote from the Rev. Charles Kingsley, a Victorian theologian and defender of Darwinism;
Literally describing Irish people as subhuman. This attitude was wildly popular in England. Even in the eighties and nineties it was still common for occupation troops in Northern Ireland to refer to the Irish as “white n****rs”. This attitude, that the Irish are subhuman, justified horrific acts of racial violence that happened in my lifetime, and probably yours.
The Irish have been the targets of military occupation, police abuse, disenfranchisement and genocide, all on the basis of what the English very much considered to be their “race.”
Again, America is not the world. There are whole layers of complex interactions of identity happening out there beyond your borders.
Yes, the Irish were (and kind of still are) looked down upon by “Whites”.
They historically chose to address that by becoming cops. Oppressors. The idea being that if they were useful they would at least be better than the brown and yellow people. And irish cops have caused untold horrors amongst labor and minorities.
So while I disagree that “paddy wagon” is an Irish slur so much as MAYBE it is a cop slur, it is close enough that I’ll refrain from using it. But it is still the same issue as with “cracker” where… you are gonna have to try a whole hell of a lot harder for me to care if people’s feelings are hurt that folk don’t appreciate how many skulls they cracked in the name of impressing the crackers.
But you do see how you’re very much engaging in stereotyping by saying that “They historically chose to address that by becoming cops” as if somehow a) all Irish people in America became cops, and b) the experiences of the Irish diaspora in America are somehow representative of all Irish people… Right?
Like, seriously, go ask some Irish people in Northern Ireland how they feel about cops some time. Depending on who you ask you’re guaranteed to get some wildly different answers.
Again. IF we decide that “paddy wagon” is a slur toward the Irish, it is specifically a slur toward Irish cops. And fuck the police.
Simple as that.
Like I said, I’ll try to avoid it in the future because even though there is very little evidence that it is even a slur toward Irish cops, it sounds enough like one that I would rather avoid it. But I am not gonna lose ANY sleep over oppressors getting their fee fees hurt because people don’t like them.
If black people had joined police forces in large numbers for a variety of very complex historical reasons, would you be defending “N****r Wagon” as a perfectly acceptable term right now?
If black people had joined the air force in very large numbers and abused other ethnic and socioeconomic groups as a way to ingratiate themselves to the crackers and we decided to call them “smackers”? I would have zero problems and would whole heartedly say that.
And if someone suddenly decided that “black helicopter” is more a reference to African American pilots? I would do some research, figure out that is instead referring to night flight painting, and probably still avoid using the phrase while not caring all that much.
Speaking of: What are your thoughts on the term “cracker”? Because you clearly don’t understand the difference between a slur that is meant to degrade a human being and one that is meant to refer to an oppressor.
I have no problem with cracker, because exactly as you say, it’s a reaction against institutional power, not an exercise of it.
But “Paddy” has a long history as a term of racist abuse against a deeply disenfranchised racial minority. I’m not sure if you’re even aware that it was widely used outside of the context of the phrase “Paddy wagon.” From the way you’re discussing this, it seems like you’re not.
If a black cop arrests you it’s not suddenly praxis to refer to him by racial slurs just because he’s a cop. Call him a pig or a narc or whatever anti-cop term you like, fucking go off, but excusing racism when it’s specifically against cops is just saying that it’s OK to be racist sometimes, and that’s not something I can remotely agree with.
Yeah racism doesn’t apply to whypepo