They are both wrong.
The correct way is to argue passionately that your country has committed the MOST war crimes/genocides/human rights violations. Ya know, bragging rights.
Deutschland betritt den Raum…
Bockwurstscheibeninspektorplakettenhalter
I think there is a differrnce of Germany before EU and after EU
🤝 our governments are committing war crimes
Ultimately we have more in common with a normal Chinese person just trying to live their lives than any of us do with our ruling classes. I’m sure those same ruling classes would rather us be less aware of that fact.
Solidarity amongst the working class!
Idk why there’s such a pissing match in this post. Like honestly. Both our governments are shit. Why is this even a debate as to whose government is committing war crimes more? Your comment is the best comment here by far.
If a serial murderer told you that their victims were actually much worse than they are, would you believe them?
Yet the source of pretty much all anti-china atrocity propaganda is the US and its orgs like the victims of communism foundation. They want you to believe every single country they hate, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc… are guilty of the same crimes they are. Why do you believe them?
I might have laughed out loud on a silent bus. But worth it
One side is right tho
Na both are right. All countries have blood on their hands. It’s honestly not a good comparison.
sure the united states has comparable blood on their hands as China 😂 aight buddy
Looks like someone failed us history.
I mean if you want to count down to the individual blood cell spilled of course is going to be different. But the pressures that make the US do horrible stuff are the same pressures that make China do horrible stuff are the same pressures that make any country do horrible stuff.
Who the fuck pressures the US to invade countries abroad ?
The wealthy and the powerful. Nobody else is interested in sticking their neck out. Those that are, are influenced by propaganda that is controlled by the wealthy and powerful.
Boring.
Which country allows their citizens to openly speak about and protest said war crimes?
Not America & not China, this isn’t a competition
Americans have jesters privilege. We can say anything we want as long as it doesn’t matter. As soon as the government thinks it might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.
This is horse shit. There are examples of protests being countered (e.g. When Trump gassed protesters and clergy members to hold a Bible up upside down at their church), but these examples are rare and those people weren’t actually “silenced”. They told everyone about what happened.
Americans have freedom of speech protected by our constitution. China, on the other hand, has actual laws dictating against many forms of speech.
For example… “The PRC bans certain content regarding independence movements in Tibet and Taiwan, the religious movement Falun Gong, democracy, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, Maoism, corruption, police brutality, anarchism, gossip, disparity of wealth, and food safety scandals.”
How well did the protests about gaza go over then? You are hand waving away something we all lived through and saw. From unions to college campuses, protesting has never been a protected right. You can only protest as much as those in power allow you to in your area.
Even those not in power shit on protestors when it affects their lives. People start saying things like “thats not the way to protest” or “this isn’t the time or place, have some respect”.
Its bullshit, and we do not have the freedom to speak our minds, unless we already agree with what we are expected to.
See also: the cute little “free speech zones,” you’re free to speak your mind as long as it doesn’t interfere too much or upset anyone.
The US cracked down on Gaza protests quite harshly. Many states enact book bans these days and some ban topics like slavery from schools. Also historically protests against Vietnam were partly gunned down. The black panthers were often murdered and in fighting them the US even bombed one of its own towns. Red Scare was huge and Ernest Hemmingway was probably driven to his suicide by FBI surveillance, for which he was called paranoid but later proofed real by declassified files.
Censorship in China goes farther, but the US is far from being a free speech haven or ever having been that.
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As soon as
the governmentoligarchs who own the media thinksit might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.But it’s also worth noting that the Chinese don’t even have that. At least in America, you can get your message out by getting a billionaire to agree with you.
I thought the Jester’s job was to say stuff that DID matter, but he presented it in a way where the king could save face.
Looking it up, it’s unclear how much jesters were respected for having political competency that kings and court would listen to vs how much they were were entertainers who were permitted much greater liberty with content because he was non-threatening and affected nothing.
I think simply people like to laugh, its not crazy for a king to hire on someone to make them laugh.
Facts right…
I would posit you can say anything but the truth that hurts profits or US interests otherwise…
Like calling out Israel 🤡
you can call them out but you can’t stop your taxes going to them 🤡
Andrew Wimmer was handcuffed and taken to jail on January 22, 2003 because he refused to protest in a ““designated protest zone”” that was out of sight of the President as well as local and national TV news cameras.
A woman, armed with a ““We Love You Bush”” sign showed up at the same corner shortly after Wimmer’s arrest. Wimmer asked the police if they were going to arrest her if she didn’t move and they said, ““no.”” The police also allegedly blocked the national press camera crews and an AP reporter from approaching the protest zone to do reporting.
https://www.aclu.org/documents/dissent-forced-be-out-sight-and-out-mind
That’s a far cry from how china suppresses protests. And really a small individual example. Overall there’s a clear freedom of expression and civil protest in the US. The same absolutely cannot be said about china.
I love how people just say this. Like you know lol
Can you draw the chinese leader as Winnie the pooh in China without repercussions? I can do it to my leader where I’m at.
Can you find me a person in China who will tell you that’s true or did you pick that up from memes of people posting Winnie the Pooh xi?
You learned in highschool what a reliable source is and “cultural osmosis” is not a valid source.
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Did they bring in some tanks as well? Or if they did are we allowed to talk about it?
Outside of “Chinese man gets removed from his league of legends match cause a player talked about tiananmen square” memes, what do you know about Chinese censorship?
Talking out your ass
I know that they don’t like people asking for a free Tibet and independence for Hong Kong. Are there any good mainstream Chinese media articles that talk about these subjects?
When was the last demonstration made against central leadership? Or everyone just loves it there? Why do they have a firewall that blocks youtube?
I’m gonna answer that last one cause it’s the only one I know lol.
So you know how we are banning tiktok because we are afraid of China influencing America? So fun fact, America does that. We are like, cultural colonists. We have created a sort of global super culture that has gotten into every countries lives.
And we have 100% used that as a sort of “in” with locals in countries we were not friends and then we would use that influence to radicalize the right wing ideologies in the country and cause destabilization and, all things going well, revolutions. See: all of south America and the Middle East (hi Afghanistan).
So with all that in mind. With the world’s greatest super power systematically using its cultural influence as a soft power start with encouraging revolutions in your country for its own geo political gain. All that in mind. It’s kinda the most obvious move in the world. The US is doing it right now because they “perceived” it happening to us. If China became a big cultural export to the world you’d bet your ass that we would great firewall ourselves off. We just don’t have to. Because we are big dog. Woof woof. And China don’t have a large amount of cultural export.
Sidenote. A Chinese company, tencent was making investments into videogames. They own riot who make league of legends and they have been getting their finger into a lot of studios for that sweet gamer money. The US gov said this game investment company is “apart of the Chinese military” lol.
Can you post pictures of a tank event in the 80s in China without censoring? Can you talk about these protests ?
Well considering a majority of americans think the tank guy got ran over and murdered on camera for everyone to see, maybe not so crazy they quash that one.
Edit: I encourage those who aren’t aware to go watch the full footage, its not shocking in the least, many will find it anticlimactic even.
Edit 2: took forever to find the full video, its not in full on youtube or anything like that I could find: https://odysee.com/@swprs:3/tiananmen-tank-man-1989-hd-full:b
China, but also the PRC hasn’t been in a war in like 50+ years. Meanwhile the US killed a million innocent people in Iraq, and goes after whistleblowers like Assange, Snowden, and Manning for speaking out about its war crimes. And the Obama administration prosecuted a record number of whistleblowers, and had a zero tolerance policy towards them.
Try to talk about the Tiananmen Square in China, Monsieur Jacques I.
“haha if you say tiananmen square in a league of legends match the Chinese get banned” is your source
What about the Tiananmen square massacre?
- Notes for the 30th anniversary of the Tiannment incident.
- It wasn’t a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
- Latin American diplomat eyewitness account of June 3-4 events on Tiananmen Square wikileaks (PDF)
- There was a Spanish television crew that covered the entire Tiananmen Square incident as it unfolded. Their footage showed that there was no massacre. A few things worthy of pointing out - Liu Xiaobo and Hou Dejian, both student leaders of the Tiananmen protests, have been recorded as saying that they never saw anyone killed at the protests.
- The protest movement followed the line of “color revolutions”, in which the US tried to destabilize and create counter-revolutions in eastern Europe and Latin America after the fall of the USSR. The strategy was to stir division within and without, by inundating the media with news of massacres of “peaceful”, pro-capitalist / market reformers.
- The defeat of a counter revolution in China.
- Interviews from some of the student leaders.
- An account from a resident.
- Tiananmen Square “Massacre”, A Propaganda Hoax.
- The truth about the Tiananmen square protests
But the tank
Checkmate commies
I just posted this elsewhere, and I’m sure you’ve already seen it but here’s the full video of the tank man:
https://odysee.com/@swprs:3/tiananmen-tank-man-1989-hd-full:b
Does not get run over, no violence.
Yeah that was the point, I was being facetious
Yeah I guess I sorta used your comment there to put that out for other people. Sorry for that.
That vimeo link of the spanish tv crew coverage doesn’t seem to work for me. Do you happen to have any mirror of it?
Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMtopY3pcZs
@dessalines@lemmy.ml, update your link for #4.
Done, thx.
Well the US doesn’t. China is hard to say because it’s not constantly at war
Like, the Netherlands or something maybe?
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And the top comment on that video is defending the police, fascism has it’s hold in many places
The removed of fascism is always in heat
lol .ml censoring your word here is super apropos
“Fascism is when you have to infer a word from context to avoid being called slurs” (Albert Fascism, creator of the .ml TLD
Dang Albert fascism and his choice selection of english
Thanks for posting, didn’t know about that!
To be fair I mainly wanted to jokingly tell the commentator that both china and the us are guilty of this, so I just mentioned a third country that I thought was decent. Thanks for educating :)
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¿Porque no los dos?
It is not either or, folks. Both are bad for similar and different ways!
Name 5 Chinese war crimes,I’ll wait 😎
- Dragging anchor in the baltic and cutting cables.
- Ramming Philippine ships and assaulting sailors.
- Genocide of the Uyghers.
- Tibet genocide.
- The rampant illegal fishing in every other countries coastline.
#4 is like claiming the Union committed genocide against enslaved people in the Confederacy by abolishing slavery
Please elaborate
Please list sources for any of these. Preferably not from US or british state media.
Which country do you accept?
The US is currently in a trade war with China, and Britain is still salty about their loss of their hong kong in 1997. So it’s best to get a source from a neutral country, rather than one of their current enemies.
For example, let’s look at what the middle east (a region the US and Britain have also looted, colonized, and bombed for decades) has to say:
- A majority of Muslim countries support China’s policies in XinJiang, and don’t believe the western lies told about it.. 54 Countries in total. 2, 3, 4 Supporters: Algeria, Angola, Bahrain, Belarus, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, Burma, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Comoros, Congo, Cuba, DR Congo, Egypt, Eritrea, Gabon, Kuwait, Laos, Nigeria, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Togo, Turkmenistan, UAE, Venezuela, Zimbabwe.
- Egyptian media delegates provide a detailed insight of the situation in Xinjiang
- A Pakistani Diplomat given full access to “re-education camps” and this is what she found.
- Despite claims of “erasing Uyghur culture”, they stated: “I did not find any instance of forced labor or cultural and religious repression. The imams we met at the mosques and the students and teachers at the Xinjiang Islamic Institute told us that they enjoy freedom in practicing Islam and that the Chinese government extends support for maintenance of mosques all over Xinjiang. […]The most visible sign of protection of Uyghur culture by the government is the government-run bilingual kindergarten schools where children learn Putonghua as well as Uyghur language and culture from a very young age.”
“Provide sources. No not those sources!” -you
If your sources quote “anonymous sources” and nebulous “state documents” without providing access to them, those are shit sources. I wouldn’t trust them even if I didn’t know their track record of making shit up as long as their CIA
handlercontact “confirms” the story.I mean how about this, you CAN use those sources, however I will not treat them as a sacred cow and given there track record when dealing with places the US does not like it will take me almost no time to debunk the claim, or point out how the source is not credible on this topic, then you will wace your hands and scream about some liberal media reliability rateing that cannot even get left right and center correct, even in the US overton window, an then I will have to debunk the new media reliability AND remind you of the previous debunk.
OR we can skip some of the easier ones to debunk and try to have an easier time in trying to understand reality, rather than just screaming and letting rich ghools make it up for us. The choice is yours
Here’s 5 actual war crimes
- My Lai massacre Vietnam - America
- Iraq invasion (there’s thousands within this one including Abu ghraib) -america/nato 3- dressing up as medical personnel and massacring a refugee camp to save 1 person in gaza- Israel and America 4- a host of lesser known but many technical war crimes in Afghanistan like bombing undefended villages and towns https://www.culawreview.org/journal/double-standards-in-international-law-did-the-us-get-away-with-war-crimes-in-afghanistan 5- raping children and murdering their family. This is American tactic in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria with many documented cases
yes we are now doing exactly what the meme at the top of the page is doing.
fyi: two spaces at the end of a line will format that correctly as a newline
That is true lmao, though I do believe in nuance, it’s definitely not s black and white or a both sides equally bad sort of mindset
Also thank you, I was having issues with the text on the phone, question, how do I just take a break without a whole space between? If that makes sense
3·18 hours agoTwo spaces at the end of a line
Makes a new line
What do you chuds not understand about “two countries are committing war crimes”? You asked about China and got an answer about China. You’re trying to convince us who’s the second worst empire.
I think you’re missing the WAR part of the WAR CRIME. I thought you’d realise by now, but you’re really digging yourself a hole. Funny thing is there are wars you could have mentioned and war crimes. The point of original comment was to draw our those without any knowledge like you 😜
I’m explaining to you why this comparison is a poor argument, not volunteering to dance around various different arguments all day.
1 isn’t a war crimes lmao 2 isn’t a war crime 3. Isn’t a war crime nor is there proof. Literal unbacked western propaganda, wanna know what is backed? Gaza, By the west and Sudan genocide by America via UAE RIGHT NOW, you can literally watch it unfold on all social media 4. Perhaps, I would need to do more research on this one, but didn’t you got 3 wrong, I wouldn’t be surprised if your wrong again. 5. Not a war crime
Edit: no idea how to do formatting on the phone, I apologise
Crimes against humanity are war crimes. Looting is a war crime. Invasion of a sovereign nation is an act of war. Stealing their resources is looting. Genocide is a crime against humanity and Tibet and the Uyghers are in one.
Wolf warriors that bury their head in the sand will suffocate under the lies.
China has been real bad.
Uyghers are in one
There is no post-2021 evidence whatsoever of human right abuses of any sort in the Xinjiang province against Uyghur people. You can try to find stuff but you won’t find anything, I dare you to send me a single article that has an actual reference to actual evidence of post-2021 human right abuses. Send me an article and point to the actual reference within the article. I dare you.
Uyghur Genocide and Concentrated Reeducation Camps in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People’s Republic of China https://search.app/fyMhR137LTgqVkEJ8
Here is a report from the office of national intelligence last November listing all the data for the genocide.
The document is from a US intelligence agency from what it seems, it’s poorly referenced, and even then there’s nothing post-2021, is there?
I explicitly asked to please point at the reference within the article, because I’m exhausted of people just finding articles on google on this topic on western media and sending them to me without reading them. Please tell me what post-2021 huma right abuses are referenced and well-sourced in the report
You didn’t download it did you? There is recent and relevant information about Uygher displacement and ethic cleansing. Why do you support ethnic cleansing?
So I checked it out… never directly states where the data is from (“PRC state media and data”, “party documents and data reportedly obtained from local public security bureaus in Xinjiang”, it continues to be this vague never specific throughout), most of the dates end in 2021/2022 (for the latter e.g. “the last date for which authorities have issued such reports”, so that doesn’t show it hasn’t ended in 2021)
The closest thing you have in there is
the continued elevated number of indictments in 2022 suggests that the campaign continues
Are there other, better, sources?
Two years after Xinjiang findings, UN reports ‘limited access to information’, ‘reprisals’ against activists | ISHR https://search.app/rTPVgDbwvYQ9ozAEA
China is refusing to allow an investigation. That’s a presumption of guilt.
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you and this other guy are tankie trash, full stop. So does then make you fascist trash? This isn’t the cold war and I was born in Scotland not Yugoslavia No buddy were just a bit brighter then you. There’s 3 tiers of thinking. 'one side is wholly bad" Tier 2 “both sides are bad” Tier 3" both sides are bad but I want to look deeper into the complexites and nuances which made me realise, one side is infinitely worse" You’re stuck on tier 2. i’m an american, i’m a little dull to the ol “it isn’t technically a war bc we didn’t declare war >:2” shit
You said it yourself you are pretty dull as you don’t know what a freaking war crime Vs a crime against humanity is. A crime against humanity would be like slaving your citizens… Like how it’s codified in American prison laws
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Here is the definition. A crime against humanity is a war crime.
The International Criminal Court (ICC) | International peace and security | Government.nl https://search.app/iKiJrEFeMYP2nzF76
Crimes against humanity aren’t war crimes. You’re reading comprehension is lacking my friend. The war in war crimes means warfare.
Speaking of genocides. You have mentioned two. Most genocides on the planet are actively done by America and it’s allies or it supplies the weapons and silences the media.
Considering China having 5 times the population of america. Id say china has been very good comparatively on the world. Also nothing to say how 4 of 5 of your war crimes weren’t at all war crimes??
Crimes against humanity is as good as a warcrime buddy boy
You really thought you did something there. Read my original comment and point to where i denied that or said otherwise 🤣
I did something, It was enough for you to go “waaaaah”
Yes they are. Source: The International Criminal Court (ICC) | International peace and security | Government.nl https://search.app/iKiJrEFeMYP2nzF76
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Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, which is a war crime.
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Finally, a sane take
