The Israeli rescue service Zaka says its paramedics removed more than 260 bodies from a music festival that came under attack by Hamas militants.
The total figure of bodies found is expected to be higher, as other paramedic teams were also working in the area and Zaka added that the bodies “haven’t all been collected yet”.
Early on Saturday morning, Hamas targeted Nova music festival, a techno rave in the desert near the border with Gaza.
Videos shared on social media and by Israeli news outlets showed dozens of festival-goers running through an open field as gunshots rang out. Many hid in nearby fruit orchards or were gunned down as they fled.
Wholesale slaughter of innocents? What a way to show Palestinians are the ones we should support.
I had been pretty much on the Palestinian side of the conflict for some time.
This attack has absolutely burnt any goodwill I had for the Palestinian cause. If Mexico attacked America in this manner, we would likely own everything south of the Gulf of California.
I cannot fathom what Hamas thought would come of this.
“Palestine” is not the one that did this. Hamas is a terrorist group, and their actions do not justify the fact that the Israeli government operates an apartheid state where people are given rights, status, and property on the basis of race, and also participates in the slaughter of innocent people.
This isn’t a “whoever’s worse should lose” situation. Israel commits human rights violations and Hamas is a terrorist group.
I hate the phrasing “terrorist group” here. Not because what happened here wasn’t an atrocity, but because people generally refuse to call state-backed violence “terrorist” violence. The word terrorism is incredibly broad, easily describing a ton of things Israel does. Yet, we refuse to call them a terrorist organization.
Israel slaughtered hundreds of protesters 4 years ago in Gaza.
Israel and Egypt have been blockading the Gaza strip in violation of the GCIV since 2007.
In 2014, a triple-homicide was committed. Israel claimed it was Hamas, and arrested hundreds of Palestinians. Hamas sent rockets into Israel, killing 2 people, and Israel initiated Operation Protective Edge, killing thousands of Palestinians.
Not to mention the entire Israel-Palestine conflict can be traced back about 100 years, where imperialist Britain endorsed the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the Balfour Declaration. Eventually leading to the formation of Israel in the late 40s and the subsequent ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, forcing nearly a million natives to move to make way for Israel.
“terrorism” is politically charged language with the intent of making us sympathize with a certain side. Of course we’ll side with the “Israel state” and against the “Hamas terrorist group”. The language used to describe these groups already prescribes how we should view them. Western media will never describe Israel’s atrocities as terrorist actions, so people will dismiss the slaughter of tens or even hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians as “just war”.
Hamas is the governing body of Palestine.
It was Palestine who did this.
By this logic all Iranians support their current Islamist government, which everyone and their mother knows to not be true.
Do you support everything your government does?
Did Germany support everything the Nazis did? No, not every citizen, but it was enough support to give Hitler his rise to power and descend into WWII.
Did Afghanistan support everything the Taliban did? No, but war was the only response to 9/11.
In the end, war sucks and many innocent people will be caught in the crossfire. But, I don’t see any other end result out of this. Israel has been so beaten down by terrorist attacks and hostility since literally the day the country was formed that war is the only way forward. They have tried every other option for the last 50 years.
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My government doesn’t have a 75% approval rating like Hamas does.
I have trouble believing any government truly has such high approval.
which should suggest you something?? you are SO close
No but i still am part of my country. Every thing my government does represents my country and therefore me.
I have to disagree.
That’s why you revolt and form revolutions. But, when a majority of the country is on the wrong side, that becomes the public face of the country.
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The government represents the people, the people do not represent the government.
That mindset will lead you to boot licking
Everything my government does represents me, even when it doesn’t represent me at all. Actually, nevermind.
That’s like saying when Republicans do something stupid. It’s America. It’s not. There’s far more going on. And that’s just disingenuous.
The lack of nuance displayed around here sometimes is truly disturbing.
“Them versus us” mentality is very prominent in modern society and it’s only gotten worse. Not just in the context of conflicts, it’s a general problem.
Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. They don’t control the West Bank where the majority of Palestinians live.
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you’re going to have to say you killed
No, to be consistent they’d have to say America killed them. No need to switch from blaming a country to blaming an individual citizen.
I think a majority of Americans would admit America killed them.
I think it’s quite obvious they were using the royal ‘you’, as in America (almost every American assumes everyone else is also American in the internet unless otherwise stated).
And they’re right, American soldiers did unspeakable things in Afghanistan and Iraq, but that doesn’t mean all Americans are responsible for the decisions those soldiers made.
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Forget about consistency, this is just flat out incorrect. You’re trying to equate two different distinct sets of people, one of which contains the other.
Group A (superset) includes Bob, Alice, Sue, Mike, Cole, Anthony, Tony, Joanna, and Jerry.
Group B (subset #1) includes Bob, Alice, Sue, Mike. They voted for Anthony to run group A and received a majority, so Anthony assumed power.
Group C (subset #2) includes Anthony, Sue, Mike, and Joanna. They form a government and military over/of group A. They kill a bunch of people.
Group C is NOT EQUAL TO group A. Period. No argument, no “but what if”, they are two different groups. Note that Cole, Tony and Jerry (group D) are flatly not represented in any way by the actions of group C.
Are they? Palestine isn’t an independent state, so how is their governance determined?
“Palestine” is not the one that did this.
Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas. They allowed this shit to fester.
We shouldn’t conflate the people of Isreal with the extremist State of Isreal, we shouldn’t conflate the people of Palestine with Hamas. Atrocities have been committed on both sides and each one is an atrocity, but the fact remains that the Palestinian people are living under an apartheid and therefore should be supported despite acts committed by extremists in it’s name. This situation shouldn’t be reduced to a simplistic one-sided team sport. Palestine still needs liberating.
It’s spelled Israel
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It’s difficult to not conflate them with hammas when 80% supprts them and celebrated the attack
Source, post-attack?
Honest question: What would you do if you were born there?
seek refuge somewhere else.
You expect me to believe you would simply leave behind the place you were born and all of your loved ones?
Already did so actually and it wasn’t even comparable to the situation in gaza so yes , I would definitely leave … I don’t care if you don’t believe me.
Edit: actually you can search my comments from before the recent attacks and find a few that support the fact i am an expatriate.
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I stop reading and ask for a refund for the book.
Just like in Israel…
80%
Where are you getting this figure from? I see ~29% from this poll:
conducted in 2023.
your source is about voting, voting implies approval but not voting doesn’t imply lack of approval…
electing them as leaders is not the same as approving their actions. even then, from your own source 47% of the polled in gaza would vote for hamas. that is the lower bound of their approval %.
one source cites 75% approval : https://www.nbcnews.com/news/gaza-strip-controls-s-know-rcna119405
My source is a comprehensive poll covering a bunch of different topics. Most centrally:
If new parliamentary elections were held today with the participation of all political forces that participated in the 2006 elections, 64% say they would participate in them, and among these participants, Fateh receives 36%, Hamas’ Change and Reform 34%, all other lists combined 9%, and 21% say they have not yet decided whom they will vote for. Three months ago, vote for Hamas stood at 34% and Fatah at 33%. Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 44% (compared to 44% three months ago) and for Fateh at 32% (compared to 28% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 24% (compared to 25% three months ago) and Fatah at 40% (compared to 34% three months ago).
A little over a quarter (27%) believe that Hamas is the most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people today while 24% believe that Fateh under the leadership of Abbas is more deserving; 44% believe both are unworthy of representation and leadership. Three months ago, 31% said Hamas is the most deserving, 21% said Fateh led by Abbas is the most deserving, and 43% said both are unworthy of representation and leadership.
which isn’t even close to 80% no matter how you look at it.
Your NBC News one says this:
The group’s popularity grew after a two-week conflict with Israel in 2021, with roughly 75% of those polled viewing Hamas as safeguarding the Al-Aqsa Mosque and other Muslim holy sites in East Jerusalem.
which is a very different thing than general approval…
Dont forget the paraded naked woman that was spit on by people. Hamas are savages who are funded by Iran
Had it been attacks on only military targets, that’d be one thing. I understand that this has been a long, drawn-out conflict and Israel has killed a large number of civilians themselves and have, meter-by-meter, been taking more land away from the Palestinians (essentially committing slow-motion genocide). I get that, Israel the country isn’t innocent, BUT civilians should never be considered legitimate targets by either side in the conflict. Hamas isn’t helping their cause any with these attacks.
Hamas is not Palestine. There’s why they’ve done this. The attack and all their actions just hurt Palestinians, and they don’t care. They use Palestinians regularly as living hostages.
The us doesn’t hold Mexico or Mexicans in an open air concentration camp we regularly demolish buildings in with war munitions for simple allegation with no due process.
I’m going to bet it’s going to come out that this is essentially Iran and other countries sending mercs to act as Hamas just as the last major offensive was.
The native Americans would beg to differ about how the United States treated the people who were here before them.
I’m talking about Mexico today currently as was the person I replied to, and yes as a native I’m aware how shitty the us still treat its native populaces.
Shitty treatment? They were genocided and those that survived were pushed into little strips of leftover land. Hundreds of millions of colonists are happily living on the stolen land with plenty of excuses not to leave.
Did you just 'splain colonisation to a native person?
If someone minimizes genocide and oppression I’ll explain it to anybody that needs it tbh
C’mon, in the middle of all this shit, it was a small moment of humour.
I for one will take any and all little silver lining I can get in the middle of this shit, even if its just a momentary small laugh.
What part of I’m aware are you confused about. Moreover you’re arguing but you clearly don’t have a point, please get to it.
Well you seem to be claiming the the analogy of the US retaliating in a no holds barred style against a Mexican attack should not be made, because the US hasn’t acted as bad to warrant such an attack. But that is of course beside the point itself as the above poster stated.
The US has done a lot worse than Israel. They annihilated more than 95% of the natives ffs. 5 million people.
Would there be much support if people of Native American ancestry attacked a music festival and killed 500?
The us doesn’t hold Mexico or Mexicans in an open air concentration camp
True. The concentration camps on and near the US-Mexican border aren’t open air.
There was already an article out that said Iran helped hamas.
Tehran is saying they didn’t do it. But articles from wsj and the like have said they did help.
There is no justification for what they’ve done. Senseless violence breeds senseless violence, but we can still blame those who do violence. Everyone subjected to Israel’s abuse isn’t killing civilians.
At this point it seems clear to me that Hamas is just using the Palestinians and doesn’t actually care about them.
You’re arguing a point I never made. Point to where I excuse the behavior, I’ll wait.
Duh, they were an ultra religious sect Israel allowed to exist because they were actively fighting the same enemy, secular Palestinians.
Apologies. I didn’t mean to suggest you were excusing it, but my wording certainly implies I did. I just wanted to say that observing the geopolitical cause is different from excusing the murderers – which you’ve just pointed out.
Israel’s far right government and Hamas have an unholy union where they hurt Israeli and Palestinian civilians alike. Too many people conflate this with all Israelis and all Palestinians though :/
Bingo. Most Israeli aren’t zionists but all accounts, most Palestinians aren’t terrorists or even Muslim at this point iirc though frankly the religion is just an excuse to be shitty on all sides. Christians need an Israeli controlled holy land for their end days to happen, Islam wants all of the holy land to exclude Jews especially but Christians also, Israel wants all of Israel because a book says so. It’s fucking absurd.
Can you link where that was determined to be the case in their last offensive? Would genuinely like to read this if true.
Tag me if you get something I need to read about this.
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This was an Iranian funded terrorist group, not a Palestinian liberation group. They claim to help the latter, but this attack makes it obvious they don’t give a shit about Palestinians, they just sent to hurt Israelis. Everyone is better off if the group can be destroyed.
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I’m starting to wonder if that is the point. Groups like Hamas thrive on anger and conflict.
I’m both glad and sorry that this is what made you understand, hamas was like that ever since u remember myself, Israel never start those clashes. They always shoot hiding behind kindergartens, women and elderly people while the shoot thousands of missiles.
The only difference between previous ones to this one is that the caught us off guard
so 0.05% of the population can make you change your political view about 2 millions people(plus people in west bank because fuck em right?)
then you never supported a free palestine
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This is who they have always been. In over half a century of conflict they have only ever chosen terrorism. Never once have they tried to achieve their goals through passive resistance, despite the historical lessons of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr, that this is the only strategy that works against overwhelming military force.
And the reason they haven’t tried it is because peaceful coexistance is not their goal. They want Israel destroyed, and have shown the world for the better part of a century that they will settle for literally nothing less.
This does not apply to other renown activists like Nelson Mandela nor does it apply to revolutionary movements like the American Revolution.
You don’t know what you’re talking about lol
That is patently false. Of course Palestinians have been using non violent civil society tactics for a very long time. What do you think the vilified BDS movement was/is about? Looking for a Mandela figure? Look up Marwan Barghouti. The problem is that every time moderate Palestinians become even a tiny bit successful at making their voice heard internally or externally, either Israel in an official capacity or the dominant nationalist Israeli political powers and their allies within and without move in to completely stifle them. This in turn allows only the most extreme Palestinian voices to survive, since in the absence of a public opinion with a Conscience and a Decency to listen to NV movements, extreme violent movements are the only ones that can thrive on persecution.
Palestinian passive resistance is well documented.
You should educate yourself on things like the Great March of Return. Palestinians (and yes, Hamas too) marched peacefully for over a year near the border fence that entraps them. Israel responded by killing over 200 people and injuring over 9000.
If you’re in the mood to get angry, go to youtube and look up interviews with IDF soldiers who did the shooting. Many smile and laugh as they brag about shooting unarmed civilians.
ROFL
Most protested peacefully, far from the border fence. However, groups mainly comprising young men approached the fence and engaged in violent actions directed towards the Israeli side. Israeli officials argued that Hamas used the demonstrations as cover for launching attacks against Israel
exactly, but that won’t stop people from continuing to try to justify it, due to their own inherent anti-semitism and anger at the christian church from crimes committed centuries ago
Hamas isn’t Palestine.
Palestine could sure help get rid of them if they wanted to.
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If they value their statehood, yes.
If Germany took care of their Nazi problem before it festered, the rest of the world wouldn’t have had to deal with the entirety of World War II, and German citizens wouldn’t have been punished with the brutal East/West division of its country. Countries should not tolerate fascism and terrorism within their own ranks, no matter who’s side they are on.
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Israel could sure stop invading if they wanted to.
In Gaza, they did in the mid 2000s. They even evicted all Jewish settlers and settlements, some at gunpoint; in an effort to secure peace.
no they just didnt want to lock them in the prison to be XD
Overthrow the violent military group holding them hostage?
That’s had Israel’ tactic approval to act as preferred enemy, which has international support?
Good fucking luck.
Palestine
And what government body do you propose is “Palestine”. This is why Israel is an apartheid state.
HOW???
I’m sure Hamas thought the same thing about Israeli citizens and the Gaza blockade.
Remember everyone: It’s okay when white people do it.
Remind me how many Palestinians support Hamas and its ideology. You cannot make this comparison. Nothing Israel ever did comes near these levels of brutality.
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90% of the dead people in this conflict are Palestinians. this is a walk int he park comparatively for israel
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Also, it’s hard to poll oppressed people since they tend to answer what they think will not put them in any more trouble.
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!Sure
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The people slaughtered at the music festival were foreign nationals. They had nothing to do with this conflict.
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I’ve come to realize that a lot of statements we have about violence causing violence and cause and effect and such are observational, objective statements.
For instance, you saying Israel shoulders responsibility for cause and effect is a geopolitical analysis on why this attack occurred. It isn’t a judgment that says the attack is Israel’s fault – the blame lies squarely with the actual terrorists. Talking about the event itself is different from talking about the event geopolitically.
I know you probably already know this, but I’m still coming to grips with this duality.
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Thanks, likewise.
It’s always those pesky Palestinians doing the slaughtering! For 75 years!
That’s how they’ve been taking more and more land from Israel and they even build a gigantic illegal wall to box those poor Israelis in and stop them being able to leave freely! And with their military backing and funding from giant powerhouses in the west, those poor Israelis don’t stand a chance, it’s about time they fought back and stood up for themselves! They should defend their homes just like Ukraine!
Wait…
This is a chart that shows one thing only: Israel has the stronger military.
It doesn’t say a thing about who attempted to kill more civilians, and who took steps to avoid civilian deaths. It doesn’t say anything about who has made concessions for peace, and who has walked away from peace deals for almost a century.
If you think this chart shows that Israel is the bad guy, you would absolutely shit yourself if you saw a similar chart comparing the US and Nazi Germany.
If someone breaks into your house and says “give me this house and all your stuff or I’ll kill you and your family” and you refuse, so they kill you and take your house, are you in the wrong for not accepting their peace deal?
That’s a terrible analogy because it doesn’t fit the fact that for all kinds of reasons.
But for the sake of argument, let’s accept part of your basic premise.
Let’s assume that decades ago someone took over half of your grandma’s house (in which your large family lives). You’re super pissed that you have been relegated to half of what you still think of as your house.
The people in “your” house with you are much, much, much, much tougher than you, and you will never, ever, ever get them out by force.
The people in your house with you have tried time and again to come to a peaceful living situation with you, but you hate them so much that you have refused literally every single offer to live in harmony.
You constantly throw rocks at their children. Every once in a while you kill one of their children.
You do this while hiding behind your own children, so that if they fight back and shoot you, there’s a very good chance they’ll hit your children.
This is fine with you because you value the news story this will create more than you value the life of your own child.
The people in “your” house have the deed to the house, and have the might to do whatever they want with the house, and ask the neighbors recognize it is their house, even if they sometimes grumble about it.
The people in “your” house build a fence through the middle of the house to prevent you from killing their children, which you are still trying to do every single day.
The people in your house make sure you get food and water, but they are so sick of your violent behavior that they are choking you off from luxuries or prosperity of any kind.
You know your children could have a better life if you just accepted that you’ll never get the whole house back. Heck, if you asked nicely, you could probably still get a deed to the part of the house your live in. You could pass that on to your kids. They could rebuild. They could thrive by working with the people in “your” house.
But you hate the people in your house more than you love your own kids. So you keep this futile, hopeless, fighting going. And every day you wake up trying to kill their children.
Good analogy, but it conflates Palestinians and Hamas. The latter is like a security guard that’s shown up and claims to help you, but is only concerned with hurting the other family and hides behind your kids, putting them at risk.
It’s also noteworthy that the “someone” at the beginning isn’t actually Israel even! You lived in the house, but it technically owned by Britain. The British told you to make room for a new family to live there, and the British arbitrarily decided what things were yours and what was theirs. The other family were originally refugees, and the rest of their family has been slaughtered.
The root of all of this was Britain arbitrarily drawing lines and ignoring where people were living. The exact same thing happened with India and its partition. The British listened to a Muslim nationalist and the whole country burned because of the arbitrary lines they drew. Gandhi’s intercession helped part of the country return to peace and stop the violence – and he was ultimately killed by a Hindu nationalist.
I’ve made a huge digression, but my point is everyone keeps fucking the Palestinians, including Hamas.
That was a nice fantasy.
Meanwhile, the facts.
You think that’s bad?! You should see the chart of the evil United States low casualties versus the poor innocent Nazi casualties during WWII.
Everyone knows that body count tells the whole story!
Once again, was it the us invading a country and stealing it’s land? Or were they defending against someone trying to do that?
I can post random images of “facts”, too:
See, look at my post! I posted an image! Look at meeeeeeeee!!!
It’s reality you numbnuts
Yes, all revolutions in the history of the world are famous for rising against evil teenagers who were oppressing them.
Let’s hope Russia doesn’t start holding music festivals in Bakhmut
And exactly how does your argument justify these atrocities? This is whataboutism pur sang. Don’t get me wrong, the atrocities Israel has carried out are equally appalling, but that doesn’t justify what happened at that festival. This will likely only weaken the support the Palestinians have in the west.
I just think people talking about killing civilians at a music festival being an atrocity (it is!) were probably really quiet about the regular civilian casualties caused by Israel year after year. In 12 years, the UN counted 5,590 deaths. That’s not 5,590 dead terrorists, but people are acting like the atrocities just started now. I’m very much willing to say “what about”, not because it should make people think this one isn’t horrible, but because they really should answer “what about the other ones you ignored”.
And one doesn’t even need to go backward. Israel’s already racking up civilian casualties, and you can bet there’s going to be some people who want to keep going until the Palestinian number is much higher than the Israeli number.
Israel has never targeted civilians. Palestinians have always targeted civilians.
Hamas uses civilians as meat shields.
When people like you take INTENT out of the equation, your just doing Hamas’s bidding.
Then it sure is strange how they keep doing things that kill civilians. They’re not blowing up buildings because that particular building was especially good for launching rockets. It’s collective punishment optimistically aimed at some sort of regime change, but more likely just to feed domestic bloodlust. It’s certainly not degrading military capabilities. They’re gone well before the missile hits.
And this is just the direct deadly violence. They knock down houses and light their fields on fire. Those are civilian targets in service of ethnic cleansing, either performed directly by the state or by agents supported and defended by it.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Says you.
Is that all you could come up with?
They literally shot a journalist in the head and then sent military thugs to rough up people at the funeral. Your perspective is severely lacking context on one side.
It doesn’t justify the atrocities, but to immediately drop your support of the Palestinian people due to the acts of a militant group (likely orchestrated by Iran) is just dumb.
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It is what it is. The world needs some semblance of order and you can’t just go fucking killing this many civilians because somebody took your land.
So by this logic, Native Americans should’ve just accepted Manifest Destiny?
The rest of your statement is fine, the first part is stupid.
Edit: this isn’t support for Hamas’ actions, this is the consequence of Israel’s very real policies and actions that lead to stupid people with a lot of anger targeting civilians
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Keep those downvotes coming, Zionists. No matter how much you sweaty virtue signalers try to ‘own’ people on the internet, it doesn’t change the fact that Israel caged an animal, tortured it, and are now trying to put it down because it bit back.
You and I both know that equating the entire population of Palestine to an Iraq/Qatar-funded extremist group is entirely wrong, but whatever justifies the wholesale slaughter of thousands over the years I guess. Stop pretending to care about Israeli citizens so you can feel good about watching Palestinians die.
“I used to have support for the Native Americans, but then a tribe massacred an outpost on the land that was slowly being carved from them by colonizers. Now I’ve lost all goodwill for their struggle”
The indigenous, oppressed peoples proceed to get wiped out and the colonizing states take over the entire land mass
This type of violence does not need to celebrated. It should be mourned as tragic. Its perpetrators condemned.
But so many are applying fairness or rules to a conflict that has neither.
If you create the conditions for war and terrorism, do not be surprised when war and terrorism come.
You can still condemn the terrorists – 99% of the people in those conditions have chosen not to go on a murderous rampage of civilians.
I agree though, by and large. Hamas is the problem here, not Palestinians, and Hamas should be condemned by everybody. Its hard to say that they’re trying to help Palestinians when they do attacks like this, knowing full well they are associated with Palestine. The attack has certainly changed my perspective about them operating out of civilian buildings. They’re using Palestinians as living hostages.
It would be in everybody’s best interest for a global coalition to root them out and Israel to get a non apartheid government. But we all know none of that is going to happen.
actually there was ~1000 attacckers coming from gaza thats 0.05% of the population
The problem as others stated above, is that Palestinian and Hamas are often interchangeable. Just like Russian and anti-LGBTQ.
When the majority of your people support the regime, you can’t reasonably claim your well meaning minority is actually how it is. It’s not.
America had its same epiphany when they realized the vast majority of Republicans aren’t just some fooled centrist hanging with the wrong people. They’re fascist shit stains too, they’re just quiet or polite about it lol.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
I don’t think it’s fair to go by older polls. This attack may have significantly shifted opinions.
There’s a difference between attacking unarmed civilians at a music festival and war. The terrorists should always be condemned, and you’re painting with far too broad of a brush here.
There’s a difference between freedom fighters and murderers.
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I agree with your main point. The actions of the Hamas are abhorrent. But many here are equating it with the will of all Palestinians and that’s simply not true.
I don’t understand how these acts, which clearly will not help Palestinians, can be seen as the something they all would want.
Last time I checked, only fascists believe “the will of an ethnic group” is even a thing.
I don’t think it’s the will of all Palestinians and absolutely shouldn’t be considered as such, but that’s why the denunciation must be absolute in order to bring legitimacy to the cause. It’s the same reason MLK would leave cities if rioting began. I wish it didn’t have to be this way but too many people are unable to think with a healthy dose of nuance.
There’s a difference between attacking unarmed civilians
I hope you’re one of the first to condemn Israel when they kill at least 10x as many Palestinian civilians in retaliation for this.
You know, in addition to how many more Palestinians civilians they’ve already killed.
Absolutely. Israel is the definition of a terrorist state. Imagine nuance
It’s already been pointed out earlier, but casualty numbers do not correlate to who is more “good” or “evil”. It only correlate to whoever has the bigger army.
Far more Iraqis died in Operation Desert Storm or the Iraq invasion than the US. More Afghans died during that invasion than the US. More Axis soldiers died than Allied soldiers in WWII.
but casualty numbers do not correlate to who is more “good” or “evil”. It only correlate to whoever has the bigger army.
I’m talking specifically about civilian casualties.
Please re-iterate your point if you think it also applies to civilians.
When Hamas uses civilians as human shields and hides in their country in plain sight, that tends to drive up the numbers.
Israel routinely bombs news buildings. The IDF routinely kills journalists.
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Real mask off moment with the concentration camp comment…
If you create the conditions for war and terrorism, do not be surprised when war and terrorism come.d
What do you think raping and massacring people at a music festival is going to do?
That clearly isn’t “fighting back”. It’s not war, its not even terrorism. They aren’t achieving any sort of win, or working towards independence.
This is honestly a disgusting comment.
What do you think raping and massacring people at a music festival is going to do?
Nothing, just cause more suffering. But this isn’t a bad guy vs good guy argument. The point that’s being made is that extremism tends to be a product of its environment.
Please note that this is not an anti-Israel line of arguing.
Conditions in Gaza are terrible and many people have lost loved ones during their lives there. It creates an environment where extremism can flourish. It’s not a certainty, but the probability is just much higher in environments that are severely deprived.
The actions of Hamas are inexcusable, and Israel will surely want to bring them to justice. But after that it’s time to acknowledge that if conditions in Gaza are kept as poor as they are, the chances of this type of violence happening again are almost guaranteed. It’s also in the interest of Israel to allow and facilitate improved conditions in Gaza.
There’s a large population oppressed. A large part of that population suffers in silence, a small part of that population suffers and raises protest, a smaller part of that population becomes politically savvy travels the world and raises awareness at the geopolitical stage, a smaller part of that population is so angry they just lash out and do whatever damage they can to their oppressors.
This pattern is ingrained in the human condition. We’ve seen it countless times. In many struggles. If we condemn an entire population by the acts of a few, we turn the entire population into the most violent actors.
So the question shouldn’t be do you support Hamas or do you support the Israeli state, that’s a false dichotomy. The question should be what options are we giving the Palestinian people that are better than supporting Hamas?
Well, we definitely didn’t give them the option to keep their homes that they got kicked out of
If you create the conditions for war and terrorism, do not be surprised when war and terrorism come.
This is exactly why they’re so surprised. They thought that Palestinians should just roll over and take it up the ass, like god intended, the natural order of things.
There’s only an issue when the oppressed fight back.
They should have fought Hamas first before committing collective suicide by supporting them.
ah yes palestinians are surrounded by choices…
well put.
oppress a population until they fight back and then yell terrorism
Ok, but there is literally a post on the front page of .ml saying you are not allowed to even use the word “condemn”
When do you start the timeline though? The Palestine / Israel conflict has been going for 100 years right? Are you comfy saying Israel is the original aggressor?
Full disclosure: I dislike all fundamentalist religious societies. I don’t believe in holy land, and I think people on both sides are reaping what they’ve sown by insisting they are gods chosen people. So I’m not defending Israel, but I’m not defending Palestine (and especially Hamas) either.
Obviously Israel is the original aggressor
Then please point to the original aggression
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Sorry its just so rare to find someone who completely understands every aspect of a 100 year war and has all the answers.
So nothing that happened pre-Nakba matters, Amin al-Husseini and the attacks in the 1920’s don’t count because reasons?
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Lol all my comments make it clear I hate zionists. Fuck zionists.
So you admit there’s no single starting point for the conflict if pre-nakba events are taken into account, you just like to make an incredibly complex issue black and white to make yourself feel smart then? Its fine for Palestinian nationalists to take actions to expel jews from the region that became Israel, but because Israel formed a state to defend itself, they are in the wrong?
If neither side were fundamentalist shit heads trying to destroy their neighbors way of life, they wouldn’t have these problems. When Arabs were the majority with the power the killed and drove the jews out in the name of nationalism, now the Israelis do the same
And both groups disgust me, and would hurt and destroy my way of life if they had the power to do so. If pslestinian Arabs wanted to use the dhemmi system when they had power, what right do they have to insist equal treatment now? Bunch of hypocrites
The world would be better off if Jerusalem were wiped off the planet. Then no one gets it. Problem solved.
That’s a lot of words for refusing to just agree that murdering and raping civilians at a concert is indeed bad, even when the oh so oppressed Hamas raider thugs do it.
They aren’t the oppressed indigenous folks, they’re the corrupt rez bosses that suction off all the jobs and projects to benefit their clique, brutally disappear anyone who speaks out against them or even just says something they decide they don’t like, and then claim any outside judgement is targeted harassment.
No, a terrorist pillaging, mass raping and murdering of civlians is not “if you create the conditions for war and terrorism…” despite the whinging of Hamasaboos insisting otherwise these monsters actively chose to murder civlians, actively chose to rape civilians, and kept actively choosing to do it when at no point was there any juncture where choosing to do so could be in any way construed as justified or necessary.
People trying to claim this is retaliatory violence make me fucking sick to my stomach as a Palestinian American. You fucking Bougeyevik fetishizers try to sweep this under some victim blaming rug as if us le oppressed global southis are unjustly oppressed when held to the lofty standards of “don’t rape and murder civilians.”
I don’t want excuses for their behaviour, I don’t want westsplainers telling me that it’s fine and dandy for my kin to commit such heinous and vile acts. I don’t want le revolutionaries leading global liberation from their $3,500 gaming rig bought by their upper middle class mittelpolitik parents to fetishize my people’s struggle to the point where any sin committed painted in that struggle’s colors is to be defended and qualified and whataboutismed like a vital supply route that will end the struggle overnight if the mere point is conceded that yes, Hamas raping and Murdering civilians is indeed bad and without excuse, justification, or proportionately causal context.
I want these thugs rounded up and put to Nuremberg Part II, I want Israel to drop the colonialist pretenses and join with the PLO to found a new democratic state with strict human rights protections, and I want any supremacist or separatist who’d challenge that necessity for any hope of a lasting peace to be dragged to the sea they wanted to push the other side into, and forced to go in and never come out again.
Because everyone who lives there has a fucking right to keep living there, because freedom of movement is a human right, and the land doesn’t belong to anyone, and acting like it can belong to someone is literally the batshit insane nonsense that got us here to begin with!
dammī falasTēnī, 'annā beitla7mī, wa’anna sayim kitīr la’enton!
I don’t want excuses for their behaviour, I don’t want westsplainers telling me that it’s fine and dandy for my kin to commit such heinous and vile acts
nobody said that XD
people just understand why this happened and only a fool would be surprised that an oppressed population will react wildly eventually.
Hamas are not the oppressed, they are the oppressors.
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This type of violence does not need to celebrated. It should be mourned as tragic. Its perpetrators condemned.
So… then how about you simply condemn the perpetrators instead of making excuses for them and blaming the victims.
People that have been conditioned to hate Israel really can’t help themselves can they? You must know how terrible it looks that you’re trying to hamasplain this shit, but you literally can’t stop yourself from doing it can you?
The world isn’t so black and white.
Hamas doing unspeakable things doesn’t make Israel the good guys in this conflict.
So… then how about you simply condemn the perpetrators instead of making excuses for them and blaming the victims.
this is like me making a hole in my roof and then blaming the rain
indigenous, oppressed peoples
Uh… you’re gonna have to clarify which side you mean here.
While it’s pretty clear Native Americans were in America first- not so much with the current belligerents.
Both Arabs and Proto-Jews originate from the area now called Isreal.
Palestine was already a country in 1947. Not so much for Israel.
If you decide to START history in 1947 you might miss out on over a thousand years of Muslim aggression towards Jews.
I’m no Quran expert but people seem to talk about numerous passages where Muhammad went on one rant or another about how awful they were.
https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/roark/hate_jews.html
Also the regional conflict goes way farther than the 20th century.
https://www.profolus.com/topics/origin-causes-israeli-palestinian-conflict-explained/
*British Mandate
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And Israel has been a country for the last 50 years. The Six Day War is already over. They lost.
Now, they will lose everything else.
Hamas just shot every Palestinian in the dick.
Hamas…Iran… Russia just shot every Palestinian in the dick.It is really convenient for Russia that this is now happening. Hamas is not gaining anything from this attack. They knew they would not hold the land and it would be just a chaos attack and that Israel will retaliate with full force. So why did they do it? Is maybe they are backed by Iran and Iran decided now would be a good time to use their useful idiots to attack? But what would Iran gain from it? Is it maybe Iran is buddy buddy with Putin and he could use the distraction and would be able to pit opinions in the west against each other and would continue his plan to divide the west?
The Hamas are just useful idiots. There was no plan. It was instigated by some other group that couldn’t care less who is going do die in the end on either side, as it is not their countryman. It was either a good time for iran to instigate this for free or they were smart enough to get concessions from Russia to play out this act that really played into Russian cards.
Russia loves destabilizing this region. They support the Syrian regime and use the crisis of Syrian refugee to invite them for a university-opportunity to Moscovia to then put them in busses and send them through Belarus to the polish border. The images that they produce that was on the “Imigrant crisis overwhelming europe” is then played back to the right wing parties in Europe who are - suprise - mostly pro russian. Russia is actively destabilizing regions and holding them in disarray and encouraging further conflicts to create refugee crisis as close to Europe as possible. The profit immensly from destabilizing those regions and the public discourse that entails of that in the west.
I think Russia is a scourge on humanity and the geopolitical entity (not the people) should be destroyed by covert means, but your take is nothing more than conjecture.
The head of the Arab League went to Moscow to discuss this conflict.
There is definitely a lot of smoke that Putin’s calling the shots here.
Yeah, you are probably right, this pushes the news away from Ukraine, and of course Hamas is more than happy to help. Not defending Israel either, the whole region is a mess, but Russia meddling is really not helpful.
And they’re happy to do it. What’s the point of Hamas if neither Israelis nor Palestinians are dying? Both at the same time is their ideal environment.
The most accurate take in this thread 👆
How many times are you people going to repeat the same thing?
I mean, you could just ignore it.
Turns out hitting the music festival was a terrible idea, because it absolutely turned everyone against them.
except half the morons around here who thought this was justified
inclkuding, apparently, the lemmy development team…a surprising development if you ask me.
Explain?
lemmy developers appear to be pro-death squad. not sure what else to say.
Is there a source of them claiming that?
The video that the NYT put out today of armed terrorists in technicals mowing down civilians from the road took years off my life. They rolled into Sderot and just shot anything that moved, which was mostly civilians along with firefighters and police.
Unfortunately, they also managed to kill a decent number of German, Thai, American, French, and other foreign nationals. Ironically, they also executed Israelis living in communes who were pressing for peace for Palestinians after the horrors of the 2014 war.
Not me
Waaa waaa waaa
palestineterrorist supporter
Palestinians using violent means might think they’re succeeding because they are actually getting landback for the first time in decades, but they fail to consider how bad it looks to me, a guy on the internet who thinks it would be better for their PR if they kept dying instead.
they are actually getting landback for the first time in decades
How does massacring hundreds at a music festival get them land back? How does parading a nude, murdered woman get them land back?
How does bombing residential buildings in Gaza help Israel fight terrorism?
The “murdered woman” you are referring to appears to be alive actually. This seems to be just another “Ghost of Kiev” “Nayirah testimony” “snake island 13” “Reichstag fire” “Mariupol drama theater” story. You Redditors really just gobble up whatever sob story the media gives you with no critical thinking at all, don’t you?
She was brutalized, raped, paraded through the streets, and is currently being held hostage by Hamas who are threatening to kill her. She may not be dead, but her victimization is not a hoax. She was only presumed dead because she was last seen naked and lifeless with shattered arms and legs in the back of a truck.
Did you see how her leg was twisted over backwards? That’s not a functional limb anymore. Her head was with gashes and practically naked. How is this fake to you? The video is right there, we know who it is.
The person in the video being misidentified does not change the fact they were parading a nude, murdered woman. Watch the video. How does that get them land back?
You are talking to a moron, save your breath.
I dunno EDM sucks.
As does confining millions to an open air prison
As does Israel creating Hamas
As does the current Israeli government ignoring intelligence reports because they wanted this to happen.
Speak for yourself.
Rational people recognize what a vapid facade ‘music festivals for peace’ are.
The ‘peace’ was just an excuse so rich people don’t feel bad about partying.
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What the heck? Why are you asking me to defend the attack when all I said it was a vapid display put on so rich people could feel good about themselves?
Lol.
Rich people or not… all of those people are now dead and defiled.
Your change in subject was in extremely poor taste. I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain the downvotes, but here we are.
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No, probably not.
Such an enlightening argument.
I guess then it was an excellent idea to shoot up a music festival.
/s
Your post speaks volumes. Imagine justifying slaughter by maligning innocent people.
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What the actual fuck?
I think they may have been utilizing sarcasm
Times like this make me think the tone indicator people were onto something.
You think? /s /s /s
Poe’s Law strikes again.
I never said nor implied that.
What I said would be completely true even if there wasn’t an attack.
Sure, but what you choose to focus on reveals a lot. Nothing they did was deserving of death, nor does any of it even slightly mitigate the circumstances of their death, so why it is what you choose to keep focusing on in your posts?
Ugh, fuck Hamas and everyone that supports them.
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go to Hamas and tell them this directly, if you’re so brave
otherwise, there’s no use of your comment
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I sit here, waiting for the order to get underway, for the EAM to set 1SQ so I can finally fucking launch some warheads on foreheads. Is that enough for you, or did you want me to 1306 to infantry?
Uh… not op… but, are you saying you’re sitting at some console, browsing lemmy while waiting to get the go ahead to launch nukes?
I think it was just a wordy euphemism for sitting on the toilet.
I’m sitting at my current location browsing because I’m obviously not underway - I still have internet access, on a non-secure website, on a non-secure device. Hence waiting for the order to get underway. If I were already underway I wouldn’t be able to browse the internet.
Oh okay. No disrespect, but from your other posts, I get the feeling you’re fresh out of boot camp. A sense of pride is healthy, but it can get you in trouble if you don’t keep it in check - loose lips sink ships.
Next time go with the euphemism for dropping a deuce, it’s funnier.
Nah, I’ve been in a hot minute. I’m a first class petty officer now, hoping to either make Chief or commission at some point. I know loose lips sink ships - nothing I’ve said is classified or controlled unclassified information, and all of it can be found on Wikipedia with a cursory search, and some common sense - I’m posting on the internet, so obviously I’m not underway. Mostly, I’m just trolling the civilians who think they know anything about the strategic picture. Thanks for your concern though, shipmate. It’s sincerely appreciated. Hooyah.
Hey - I might have given the wrong impression - I’m a civvy and never served. Grew up in a navy fam, so I have some exposure to life and lingo, but I won’t pretend to know shit. Stolen valor is fucked up, so I’m sorry if I gave you that vibe. Thank you for your service sailor.
Half of the Palestinian population is children but don’t let that stop you thirsting for the blood of kids whose land you stole, I hope the middle east erases facist state Israel off the map
We kicked in the door in the middle east, trashed the place, and left, multiple times now. We won’t hesitate to do it again, and this time, we might decide not to be as nice as we were the other few times. You should be careful where you post that sentiment. The CIA has eyes and ears everywhere. Sweet dreams.
How does boot taste?
I wouldn’t know, I’m the one wearing it, civilian. How does it taste? Tell me how the asphalt tastes.
Soo wait, you are proud of trashing the ME?
So completely overlooking the overlying political situation and just thinking about this incident - it’s fuckin horrible.
I’ve been at a whole lot of techno parties back in the day and just imagining these events triggers a real wince in my soul. Remember being off your head at a really good party with your mates and your partner and then imagine this shit happening. I mean, a fuckin rave is pretty much the opposite of a military target.
I’m thinking there’s a lot of criticisms to make on both sides of this conflict and a lot of comments here are focusing on that and overlooking the fucking horror of this incident right here.
You know I read these threads and they remind me so much of Reddit. And now I don’t know if reddit really got shittier or if the shittiness was always there it was just ignorable. These comments are definitely reddit tier and that’s sad for the fediverse.
People need to realize reddit and social media is shitty because people are inherently shitty. The people on lemmy are no different.
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These comments are definitely reddit tier and that’s sad for the fediverse.
People don’t change just because technology is different.
Yeah, that’s crazy - I wonder if there is some commonality we aren’t considering here?
It’s almost as if people use the internet to share their opinions.
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Oh, so places like Facebook sidestep these types of issues?
What’s that mean? Toxic comments or bad takes?
Yes.
Just guessing, but that shouldn’t be surprising. I’d imagine the most opinionated people are the ones who took offense to Reddits changes and bailed out for those reasons. And now those opinionated people saturate the comments.
Not every case of course. Like RIF died for me, and I just decided I wasn’t really enjoying Reddit and should try somewhere else. That’s probably a decent chunk of people here as well. I feel like those have a higher probability of just reading and not commenting though
I’m here for the same reason. RiF was reddit to me.
Same, at least for mobile. Admittedly I still use old.reddit with RES (and uBlock). But I’m only here because RiF died.
I’m using Boost for both Reddit and Lemmy, and as a quick glance on my phone they look identical. To be honest if I was to open a random thread and look at the comments I wouldn’t be able to tell where I am.
I’m not sure what you guys mean when you say that Lemmy feels different. If feels smaller but the same, in the good and bad.
I think the Internet got shittier, and it’s just inescapable.
or maybe western society as a whole got shittier and people are dumber
There’s a lot of commenting from westerners about this, but it’s not going to matter. Israel is going to wipe out Hamas. Hopefully the regular Palestinians survive with out much damage. And in the future they have a better life.
But it is very clear the people of Israel are very united in what they’re need to do and how to do it.
Israel is going to wipe out Hamas.
Honest question: to Israelis that want to see this, what does this mean? forcing the Palestinians out completely to Jordan and Lebanon?
don’t get me wrong, it’d be awesome if you could just magically zap the terrorists, but that’s not reality. so what’s the end game with this kind of rhetoric?
Hopefully the regular Palestinians survive with out much damage.
Based on the last 50+ years of history of conflict between these 2, I can’t be optimistic that your hopes will come true.
I expect to see reports of wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians. You know, normal every day stuff for the IDF.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Early on Saturday morning, Hamas targeted Nova music festival, a techno rave in the desert near the border with Gaza.
Videos shared on social media and by Israeli news outlets showed dozens of festival-goers running through an open field as gunshots rang out.
British citizen Jake Marlowe, 26, a carpenter by trade, was employed as a security guard at the Nova music festival just six kilometres east of Gaza, which was in full swing Saturday when Hamas launched the biggest attack on Israel in decades.
He is among dozens of festival attendees who are missing, kidnapped or presumed dead, multiple witnesses and family members told The Independent
Videos from Gaza started appearing online on Saturday, including one showing a young woman Noa Argamani being abducted by Hamas militants as she rode with her boyfriend on a motorcycle.
On Sunday, another video showed the mutilated body of one woman, identified as German tattoo artist Shani Louk by her friends, being paraded around in her underwear around Gaza.
The original article contains 473 words, the summary contains 166 words. Saved 65%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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that adds 0 points to any post
That’s a very bold statement coming from a Lemmygrad user! I can write a bot that will just put together random words and it will still add more value to the discussion than a Lemmygrader. And it will make more sense.
Absolutely horrfying. This whole thing is just so dapressing.
Meanwhile, lemmy.ml mods are worried about banning people for pointing out that US revolutionaries didn’t indiscriminately murder families. This is the fediverse’s mask off moment.
How does one bad instance that has been full of tankies for quite sometime make this the “fediverse mask off moment”???
If you browse all from a federated instance, you will see plenty of lemmy.ml threads filled with all manner of disgusting appetite for cruelty, because the mods are banning any and all pushback. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, this will be (and to a large extent already is) associated with the fediverse sooner or later, considering it is the “main” dev instance, and one of the largest communities. This has just been a particularly egregious example of - again - the main, high profile dev instance, pretty openly tolerating horrific things while removing even the most mild, reasonable dissent.
If you don’t believe me, just browse the mod log for the past few hours.
Note that “the Fediverse” consists of multiple platforms. Not just Lemmy. So no, this will not be a Fediverse mask-off moment. Perhaps a Lemmy mask-off moment, but definitely not the entire Fediverse.
Exactly. Mastodon is doing just fine, depending on who you follow.
100% - the developers themselves seem to be openly pro-terrorist. How can any person support lemmy, at all, if that is the case?
I am very disappointed in lemmy today.
If you check the modlog for this community on LW, you may notice a removal of a top post for the mediabiasfactcheck of the source… which apparently places it too close to center with no failed fact checks, or something.
Isn’t this supposed to work with up votes and down votes?
And yet, they and instances like Hexbear are still federated on certain instances.
Nobody holds yiur hand and tells you who to hate. You have to grow up and exercise your own critical skills to work out who you agree and disagree with. Hexbear and Lemmygrad are tutorial-level obvious. Lemmy.ml started more normal but seems to have drifted their way.
So get on an instance that more or less aligns with your views and dig out the block button. I use Sync on my phone and it lets you block an instance entirely.
why support developers who are obviously pro-terrorist? it’s not as simple as find another instance - it’s more like … leave lemmy.
Yes, that’s your prerogative. I wish some non-tankies would fork the software.
I’m done. people need to know what bad juju is really driving lemmy…it’s not peace love unity respect. it’s pro-death sqaud.
I posted a comment about how the kids are getting the worst of it all and got deleted.
A quick scroll of the comments doesn’t provide the answer as to why they thought this music festival was a good idea, especially considering that it’s located at the border near Gaza. Furthermore, how did Israel not see this coming and take extra security measures to protect them?
How about you attack military units instead of civilists?
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Netanyahu is entering the “find out” part of his plan of “fuck around and find out.” Maybe having a music festival minutes away from a genocide wasn’t the best idea?
