- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- world@lemmy.world
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- world@lemmy.world
- world@lemmy.world
You must log in or register to comment.
Three people were killed overnight in separate incidents in Sweden as deadly violence linked to a feud between criminal gangs escalated.
It still sucks, but not as bad as the title which made me fear a mass shooting/terror attack
Sorry but terrorism is usually a one time thing, this is gang shit this is worse as it will happen more and more.
Good luck Sweeden. Gang violence is really hard to solve, and the “tough-on-crime” politics is damaging. Here’s hoping you can thread that needle.
How is tough on crime damaging?
Because it rarely really solves the actual problem while creating a lot of spill on damage and possibly furthering violence. See the US war on drugs or Duterte’s mass executions in the Philippines for very drastic examples.
Being tough on violent gangs causes a lot of damage? Can you elaborate on this?
Drugs shouldn’t be considered criminal so I agree with you there. But violence, robbery, absolutely should be incredibly enforced.
Okay, and what would “incredibly enforcing it” look like in your opinion?
You could establish longer criminal sentences. But longer sentences generally don’t have a higher deterent effect and you just end up with people who have been isolated from society longer or are harder to integrate.
You could make it easier to arrest people/have criminal proceedings, but that will also mean more innocent people will be subjected to harsh measures and grow disdainful of the police.
You could increase police presence in general. But that is also likely to harbour mistrust and have more people subject to unfair scrutiny and would probably to little to prevent the crimes we are talking about here.
And mind you, all these measures will be much more likely to target migrants who already might have a not too rosy view of law enforcement and general society, so you’re always risking exacerbating the same societal issues that are also contributing to the crimes.
So what exactly would you suggest?
And if you look at societies in general, those with the harshest most authoritarian rules don’t really tend to be the most peaceful, crime free ones, but rather harsher rules and a harsher society tend to go in lockstep. Because violence and harshness tend to breed more violence and harshness and the fact that one of the sides enacting the violence is the state and the supposed “good guys” doesn’t magically change that.
Of course that doesn’t mean that there’s no place for harsher laws or tougher measures in certain situations ever. But it definitely means that the harder you hit, the more precise you have to be, if you don’t want things to fire back on you. Which is a lot easier said than done.
Can you provide an example?
An example for which part?
It is shocking to me how many explosions Sweden has. They had about 90 in 2022 and they were already at 109 before the end of August this year! Basically one gang or another is blowing something up every 2-3 days!
This statistic had never occurred to me before, so I looked up the US.
In 2019, 14,940 explosive related incidents which include 715 explosions of which 251 were bombings.
Hah thats nothing, Germany has had 414 detonations in 2020 only related to busting ATMs. [0]
Apparently we had 1645 cases of “Herbeiführen einer Sprengstoffexplosion” which is roughly translated as “causing a detonation of explosives”. [1] Many of them were probably not that bad but bad enough that the police got involved. Thats 4.5 cases a day.
On the other hand, sweden is only about 1/8th of the population of germany so that levels these numbers a bit.
Many of them were probably not that bad but bad enough that the police got involved. Thats 4.5 cases a day.
There’s absolutely a fuck-ton more than show up in the statistics. Pretty much each time you thought “why are people firing fireworks it’s not new year” that’s a potential case. Most cases never make it to the police and even then many are probably going to be filed away under “oh that mardy pensioner again, wake us when it’s a regular occurrence and you can actually name suspects”.
“Sweden has never before seen anything like this,”
Sweden has since sharply restricted migration levels, citing rising crime levels and other social problems.
I’m personally very pro immigration and think we need to get better at it as climate refugees become more common.
How did things get so bad in Sweden? Like, did they fail to facilitate integration or was there an abnormally high level of criminals among their immigrant population?
Failure to integrate is the right answer. At some point immigrant children ceased to have proper access to proper socio-economic status and a parallel society developed which, Scandinavians being Scandinavians, the majority ignored. It’s been a difficult time for the prospects of youth in general but that hit the immigrant population way harder as they’re not as embedded in the local social network, no “cousin of a parent owns a repair shop he’ll give you a job and tide you over”.
Active xenophobia isn’t even needed, all that’s need is a failure to see and care. It’s also generally a urban problem, both because not enough care was taken to encourage immigrants to not be urbanites (a common bias with arrivals is that “city is where the jobs are, rural areas are shitholes” which isn’t at all true for Europe in general), as well as urban society generally being ass at reaching out to people, smaller places are way more tight-knit.
Of course, with shit having hit the fan xenophobia then becomes an issue of its own reinforcing the very issues that caused everything, and down the shitchute we go.
At some point immigrant children ceased to have proper access to proper socio-economic status and a parallel society developed which, Scandinavians being Scandinavians, the majority ignored
Where is your support for such a claim? All Swedish citizens, regardless of ethnicity or any other factor, have free access to and abundance of social support:
- Free Healthcare
- Free education, including university (you get paid to study)
- Free work coaching and multitude of enrollment programs
- Free financial support for unemployed
- Favorable loans and cheap student housing
In Sweden, you do not get forced into the life of a criminal, it’s a choice you make. But in order to integrate, you must be willing, and therein lies the root of the problem.
In Sweden, you do not get forced into the life of a criminal, it’s a choice you make.
No but you might get forced into the life of a perpetually unemployed, be looked down on by nearly everyone the whole of your life. Note how I said “status”, not just “money”. Noone lives for money alone.
But in order to integrate, you must be willing, and therein lies the root of the problem.
Again these cop-outs. What you say doesn’t even begin to make sense. How is someone willing or not willing the root of the problem? That people are or are not willing has causes! Find your root there, continue to investigate, don’t cut off you interest at the exact point where you can blame everything on someone else.
Immigrants have the same possibilities as everyone else in Sweden.
So if it’s not their willingness to integrate, what is it then?
It’s hard to even know what to say to this… Everything you’ve been saying has been pretty disingenuous, I think it’s called virtue signalling.
Lol, Ok thats funny. And what virtue would that be?
It’s equal opportunity bro, everyone has exactly the same opportunities, foreigners are treated just as well as Swedes, the only reason they’re not succeeding is because they’re lazy immigrants ofc… So fucking whack.
My god. I live in the country I was born in and even I can see that the odds are not stacked equally for immigrants. Sorry, but it’s hard to take your comment in good faith, hence the downvote.
Do you live in Sweden? Or how do you know that?
I already explained why the possibilities are not the same. Are you going to address that directly, or just assume I don’t remember what I said?
You said:
At some point immigrant children ceased to have proper access to proper socio-economic status
What does that even mean, give us an example is what I’m saying.
Do you want me to explain what socio-economic status means? Because I already explained the access part. I also explained, elsewhere in this thread, that it doesn’t simply mean money.
But long story short: It’s what long-term unemployed don’t have. At least not in current European societies.
Some people come from different cultures with higher levels of crime. They come to Sweden and they aren’t automatically going to be model Swedes, just keeping doing what they do at home but now in another country. Or it gets worse because they don’t see it as their country.
They shouldn’t have to become “Swedes” to be considered acceptable. Do we have good data on certain countries having higher crime rates than others? Because often with these measurements, they are done differently in each country, making comparisons difficult.
If they moving to Sweden then yea they kinda should become swedes at least the following generations.
Funny you should say that Sweden used to keep data on things like skin colour and nationality but the data that came out if it gave fuel to people saying certain nationalities cause more crime. Now it’s unreported.
I didn’t mention skin colour, you did. Nice try.
Yea I did.
They used to keep information on that now they don’t. Same as nationality. They got rid of them at the same time.
You can only be pro immigration between countries of the same cultural background. Immigration from the Arab world and other Muslim countries should be banned.
So your answer to systematic bigotry is institutional bigotry? Get the fuck out of here! No seriously, leave. Be ashamed of your hate and keep it to yourself if your unwilling to work towards being a decent human being.
The only one with hate here is you.
