• @__dev@lemmy.world
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      161 year ago

      In recent memory I’ve had both a microphone driver bug in Linux and one in macOS with specific hardware. Only one of them was fixed with an update.

      • Voyager
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        11 year ago

        Have you tried opening an issue with the drivers developers?

    • @TheInsane42@lemmy.world
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      91 year ago

      That would be really annoying (when I would use sound)

      On the other hand, the Nvidia card I use refuses to work via the external monitor (USB-C) at power on when plugged in. Power on, then plug in, then I have screen… weird.

      • Apple: We support apple hardware
      • Microsoft: We support hardware from this list
      • Linux: You want support, write it yourself.
      • Nvidia: You want support, use windows
      • Laptop developers: You want performance, oh, you’re a gamer, here have a Nvidia card.

      You might ask, why a laptop: power consumption for the moments I don’t need power. I don’t want QHD on 17", 24" is better for my aging eyes so external monitor is a requirement. (previous one had 4K on 15", cheapest screen option to buy)

      • @Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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        Who out there using computers without sound?

        I bet you say it was your own choice as well to miss a standard feature.

        Why yes, I do use a computer without a monitor, I have memorised everything! No don’t look behind the curtain at the shattered monitor, it was my own choice!

        • @TheInsane42@lemmy.world
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          21 year ago

          Who out there using computers without sound?

          I use my computers without sound, until I watch a vid (I use headphones for that). I hate the constant beeps for attention. Same with tablets, no sound, not even when playing a game. The only device that is allowed to make a sound is the phone. (and then very limited)

    • @nintendiator@feddit.cl
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      31 year ago

      Sure, if you go with that attitude PulseAudio.

      Uninstalled it for ALSA on every (every) machine I’ve touched that has to do audio, and haven’t had issues since 2015.

  • @HeyMrDeadMan@lemmy.world
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    1231 year ago

    I’m really triggered by the idea that Linux makes running old software easy. The bane of my existence is finding an application that depends on libButts.5.1, but my distro ships with libButts.5.3, which isn’t backward compatible for some reason, and trying to install libButts.5.1 bricks the desktop environment for some reason.

    • @eumesmo
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      371 year ago

      I just searched for that lib, in an attempt to help you with the supposed problem. I won’t deny, you got me there.

    • Kayn
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      221 year ago

      No time for actual facts, only circlejerking /s

    • torpak
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      21 year ago

      can you not recompile the app to use the new lib?

      • @HeyMrDeadMan@lemmy.world
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        101 year ago

        Someone probably could. But not me. I am not a software developer, and being one should not be a prerequisite to using an OS, despite what the memes in this very group might lead one to believe.

      • icedterminal
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        Potentially but it’s not always that simple. I’ve literally encountered this exact scenario. OldeShit needs libY 1.9 but pacman is on 2.2. Can’t downgrade because libY uses 10 different libs collectively in the depends tree that explicitly need 2.0 or higher. So you take a look at libY and OldeShit builds only to realise several functions that libY provide have been reworked or removed, making it incompatible with OldeShit. As such OldeShit doesn’t build.

        As an aside, this is quite literally why Microsoft has several different VC Redistributables. To avoid this issue. But this also creates another issue. Lol.

    • @veng@lemmy.world
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      Anyone who’s feeling Linux savvy, try getting EAX working with some X-Fi hardware. Best of luck ;)

    • Nefyedardu
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      01 year ago

      Appimage, Snap, Flatpak, Docker, Podman, Distrobox, Toolbox…

        • Nefyedardu
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          01 year ago

          I mean not really, Appimage has been around since 2004, flatpak/docker for about a decade now. But at any rate I don’t see your point, the person I replied to said it’s hard to run old applications on Linux and I gave him solutions on how to do that. What does their age have to do with anything?

          • @Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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            11 year ago

            I don’t see your point, the person I replied to said it’s hard to run old applications on Linux and I gave him solutions on how to do that. What does their age have to do with anything?

            it’s hard to run old applications on Linux

            What does their age have to do with anything

            I’m not sure if you’re taking the piss but since those solutions are so recent, you won’t find old applications packaged with those solutions.

            • Nefyedardu
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              01 year ago

              They don’t need to be packaged at the time of creation anyway, they can be packaged right now. Distrobox makes this easy, like let’s say you need an application that only works on Ubuntu 18.04. It’s two commands:

              distrobox create --image ubuntu:18.04 ubuntu

              distrobox enter ubuntu -- sudo apt-get install _package_

              Then to export the package to your desktop you can even do

              distrobox enter ubuntu -- distrobox export --app _application_

              Boom, you have an Ubuntu 18.04 application on an OS of your choosing. You can theoretically do this with any distro, distrobox can use any OCI images from docker-hub, quay.io, or any registry of your choice.

      • @Abnorc@lemm.ee
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        61 year ago

        Maybe I’m unique in this regard, but I can’t remember having any issues installing things on windows since Windows 7. Trying out Linux in college was fun and interesting, but I definitely spent more time futzing around with it to make it work the way that I want it to work.

        I think more people would take the Linux community here seriously if people just acknowledged the flaws with Linux based OSes and focused on the actual benefits of Linux over windows. (Which are getting more and more enticing as Microsoft makes windows more annoying.)

        • Black616Angel
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          31 year ago

          I know what you mean and Linux can be the operating system with less issues as well. E.g. I never had printer issues with my system but have to troubleshoot others’ printers regularly.

          If you only use Linux for browsing and light office work you probably never encounter problems. Even if you play games via steam and Proton there probably will never be something.

          The same is true for Windows. If you only use it for a small subset of tasks (browsing, light office work or playing recent games) you will rarely encounter problems.

          But if you try to do so without a Microsoft account or if you don’t want a bloated start menu, it starts to get tricky.

          And don’t get me started on playing old games or getting some programming dependencies running. This can be hell.

          I know the flaws of windows (I’ve used it up until last year and still have to use it at work) and I also know the limitations of Linux. They are both not perfect, but Linux is free and Windows becomes more and more shit (as you’ve said). And this is where I don’t understand all the people saying, that windows is easier. It really isn’t anymore. It was a few years ago though.

          • @TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works
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            31 year ago

            I imagine that most people think Windows is easier because the majority of people grew up using Windows machines in schools, workplaces, etc. I think it could have to do with the sense of familiarity there.

            The other problem I think people have with Linux is that the fact that different distros confuses them. Most average people are afraid of the command line, and really want a GUI for everything. Many of these people’s first exposure to Linux could scare them away depending on the distro they happened to choose, I think.

            • Polar
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              11 year ago

              Most average people are afraid of the command line, and really want a GUI for everything. Many of these people’s first exposure to Linux could scare them away depending on the distro they happened to choose, I think.

              Or it’s the fact the community is so toxic?

              Every computer, doesn’t matter brand or hardware, never works 100% out of the box on Linux. Doesn’t matter which distro.

              You ask online, and people scream at you to run terminal commands or go back to Windows.

              You run a terminal command that breaks your system, and people blame you for running random terminal commands…

              You go back to Windows, and people say “Linux is so friendly, you don’t even have to touch the terminal anymore if you really don’t want to!”

              Rinse and repeat.

      • A key distinction is how many of those problems are specifically because of Windows. Is a Windows feature creating the problem?

        The concept scares me quite a bit actually, having to fight my OS in addition to entire else I’m always trying to figure out.

        • @nyakojiru@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          21 year ago

          Yeah I won’t say windows is better, I know Linux is superior. But windows is a mess with a reason, it works everywhere . But It can’t handle heavy operations , it’s bloated af … etc ir sucks for enterprise solutions. But for a personal computer or server simple apps, people don’t want to wait or struggle .

          • Yeah, Linux has a lot of good uses, it’s just not for everyone nor the average person. There’s no way the people who struggle with computer troubles could use Linux.

            I think that’s sometimes forgotten in all the memes. The people who could actually use Linux are a fairly small subset of all Windows users.

      • Polar
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        01 year ago

        99.9% of Windows software runs after you run the .exe

        Which programs require so much troubleshooting for you?

        • dave@hal9000
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          11 year ago

          I just spent 30+ minutes troubleshooting an MS office installer today that would just shut off after the splash screen, on a friend’s brand new laptop… But then again, I spent two hours trying to get my old Brother network scanner/printer on Manjaro a few weeks ago.

        • @Underwaterbob@lemm.ee
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          21 year ago

          I run Ubuntu at work where we have an Epson printer. My print jobs are mysteriously canceled ~50% of the time, and wouldn’t work at all throughout Ubuntu 20.10 and only started intermittently working with 22.10. (They were mysteriously quite reliable with 18.10.) Looking around on the Ubuntu forums, I was hardly alone. None of the posted fixes worked for my case, and seemed unreliable for others as well. A cursory Internet search shows me that printing problems are endemic to Linux and have been for a long time.

          We don’t have a Windows machine to compare, but the Mac on the front desk prints 100% of the time without fail barring paper jam or something else that is the fault of the printer.

      • torpak
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        31 year ago

        At least most problems under Linux have solutions and if you are really desperate you have the option to fix it yourself in the source or pay someone to do it. Under windows, if microsoft doesn’t care about your problem, you either find a workaround or live with it.

        • @Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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          Because of the ginormous community, every problem has a solution in Windows.

          If it isn’t a Microsoft sanctioned solution, then multiple third party solutions exists that fix it.

          Windows has a hell of a lot more support than any Linux distribution does.

    • I can’t say I share this experience as I spend a lot more than half my time using Linux watching documentaries on youtube in a web browser. If you are obsessed with personalization I could see this happening, but I happen to prefer using default (as in “possible to consistently re-apply”) settings on most things.

      Regardless, troubleshooting makes you better at resolving trouble that you didn’t bring about on your own, and life is defined by unexpected troubles. It is better to be antifragile than happy!

      • @eee@lemm.ee
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        91 year ago

        I guess you’re lucky (or much more tech-savvy than me). I tried to switch to linux once many years ago (pre-COVID, which is like ancient times now). It was horrible. Oh, I now need to learn about file systems and NTFS and ext3/4(?) - i guess i’ll try Linux on a separate, old hard drive. Ok, something didn’t work, I now have to figure out what driver wasn’t supported and what I need to download. Great, people on forums are helpful but they’re asking me a bunch of gibberish. Now I gotta figure out this command line thing. Oh cool some people built GUIs for certain stuff so i don’t need to play with the command line, but then the GUI doesn’t work occasionally and now I have to figure out if it’s the GUI that broke or something else. And then at some point I got stuck because of file permissions.

        • @LemoineFairclough@sh.itjust.worksOP
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          11 year ago

          If I was in your situation, I would try installing openSUSE or Fedora Linux on a computer where you don’t care if the entire disk gets wiped occasionally, using a flash drive you also don’t care about getting wiped occasionally. They probably have sufficiently comprehensive installers and installation instructions for you to succeed in using one of them, and if you don’t care about the content of the disks you use you’ll be more willing to experiment with the installation process (even though it’s unlikely your computer will work worse due to trying to install a Linux distribution). If you use a computer that has become slower and less usable than you’d like you will probably be pleasantly surprised by the results!

          Also, you can back up your product keys and prepare a Microsoft Windows installation disk if being able to go back to Windows 10 makes you more comfortable with experimenting.

          Overall, Linux enhanced my ability to to get productive work done, and also the opportunity to experiment and learn more about how to use computers to solve problems. I think learning how to use a GNU operating system is a good long term investment, though if you still need to keep around at least one computer that runs Microsoft Windows to protect your income I won’t disparage you.

      • @gizmonicus@sh.itjust.works
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        41 year ago

        The key to customization is not going out of bounds. If you customize, do it the way it was intended to be customized, not by finding weird, hacky shit that works like some kind of digital Rube Goldberg machine. If you find yourself writing convoluted bash scripts, and dredging up plugins on GitHub with the last commit from 2012, you’re on a crash course with destiny.

        • @BearOfaTime@lemm.ee
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          31 year ago

          Hey, how’d you see what I’ve done to my Android phone?

          Cause this exactly describes what I do to it. Then I get weird conflicts. Lol. I do it to myself.

        • @LemoineFairclough@sh.itjust.worksOP
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          11 year ago

          I was primarily noting that I usually don’t engage in unnecessary and unproductive customization, as there will always be some way you could meet your desires a little better, but unless you’re creating and documenting an automated system like https://larbs.xyz/ or even just “copy this file to ~/.profile” your customizations will eventually be lost when your system fails, leaving you with new reason to spend more time customizing.

          As the video I linked said: if computers are as powerful as the universe and the universe was created in billions of years, you may only be done customizing billions of years from now (and at that point you will have had even more billions of years to come up with new ways you want to improve your customization).

          If I’m spending time on something that won’t result in an update to a git repository, or a Lemmy comment, or even speaking to someone in person or me acquiring more property, I consider it more frivolous than not.

    • torpak
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      41 year ago

      I have to use windows at work. I have to spend a lot more time trouble shooting there than on my bleeding edge rolling release linux at home.

    • @Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
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      31 year ago

      I’ve had hard time troubleshooting on Windows because everything is obfuscated behind so many layers. And there’s just things you can’t feasibly do. But it does seem to work well most of the time.

  • unalivejoy
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    341 year ago

    Linux: I can’t install steam without breaking my system

  • @Crow@lemmy.world
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    341 year ago

    I think we should stop trying to figure out what operating system is superior, and just focus on shitting on Microsoft windows.

    • @LemoineFairclough@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      51 year ago

      I think both macOS and Android are inherently superior to anything I’ve ever used that was created by Microsoft.

      Multiple versions of macOS are UNIX® Certified Products according to the institution that publishes the POSIX standards: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3688.htm https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3673.htm

      Android is a mobile operating system based on a modified version of the Linux kernel” so it is surely easier to liberate yourself by using Android than by using Microsoft Windows.

      • @hansl@lemmy.world
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        61 year ago

        Windows NT had a lot of UNIX code in it and was fully POSIX compatible. But then came the Win32 code, and XP became what it is.

        • @TheInsane42@lemmy.world
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          11 year ago

          And Windows NT was the result of the failed joint venture with IBM while developing OS/2. While IBM wanted stability and preferred to let the user wait at power up until the IS was sure everything checked out, MS wanted fast user satisfaction and if things fail, just let the user reboot.

          I prefer to get a cup of coffee when the computer boot up at the start of the day, but no, ‘the market’ preferred a quick start and regular coffee breaks during the day. I’d almost suspect MS from having stocks in the coffee industry.

          Which OS is better? The one that meets the user’s needs. I’m glad there is choice, my choice isn’t everybody’s choice. The Windows desktop at work comes with a helpdesk, which works fine for me. (when I need them, but I’ll deny any knowledge of Windows ;) )

      • @blind3rdeye@lemm.ee
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        11 year ago

        When I bought my first (and only) smartphone, I figured that since it was using this partially open source linux-based OS, I’d be able to customise it, get rid of crapware, and remove google’s hooks from it. But I was wrong. I wasn’t able to do any of those things. Because of that, I don’t have a particularly favourable view towards Android.

        • @miss_brainfart@lemmy.ml
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          11 year ago

          Actual, vanilla AOSP is a pretty good system. But as soon as a manufacturer takes it and puts their own stuff on top, things get annoying.

    • /home/pineapplelover
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      41 year ago

      By shitting on Windows you’re saying anything that isn’t Windows is superior. Now you’re just being a hypocrite.

        • /home/pineapplelover
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          31 year ago

          Crow doesn’t want us to classify which operating systems are superior, yet, believes that every operating system that isn’t Windows is superior.

          • @DrQuint@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            which are

            That’s the error. The word “are” isn’t even a part of their comment. They don’t want people finding the one, singular, that is above the rest. They proposed flipping the competition. Finding the worst. That leaves no top-most judgement for the rest, no hypocrisy with that.

          • @LemoineFairclough@sh.itjust.worksOP
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            I interpreted their comment as “There are at least two tiers of things: things that are Microsoft Windows and those that aren’t, and the tier that includes Microsoft Windows is not the most superior tier”. I don’t think that’s hypocritical.

      • @gataloca@lemmy.world
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        31 year ago

        Windows users? I mean the reason why Linux users proclaim the superiority of Linux is because Windows users always say that they want to leave Windows but XYZ doesn’t work or Linux, making Linux look like it’s feature poor which isn’t the case.

        • Kayn
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          61 year ago

          They aren’t saying that Linux is feature poor. They’re just saying that Linux doesn’t fit their use case.

          Big difference.

          • @spikespaz@programming.dev
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            21 year ago

            But they continue to complain instead of learn to adapt. I have a friend who needs help every week and I told him I am charging for windows help from here on because this is stupid.

            • @Honytawk@lemmy.zip
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              01 year ago

              I’ve heard more Linux users complain about Windows than Windows users, and there are plenty more of em.

              Usually also using arguments that have either aren’t relevant anymore, or are just plainly false like the one in the post.

        • TAG
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          31 year ago

          Linux, as an OS, is much more feature rich. What it lacks is applications. There are many applications out there that are only available for Windows or OSX and there is no Linux app to do the same thing (or the Linux app is very far behind in quality). The inverse (a Linux only app) is rarely true, except for applications that are niche or heavily rely on an OS feature that does not have a close equivalent on Windows.

          Plus, just about every piece of (consumer) hardware that can be connected to a computer has a Windows driver.

          • @gataloca@lemmy.world
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            21 year ago

            And another thing you can add to that fact is that Windows users gets to enjoy the best of the Linux apps. VLC, Gimp, Audacity, OBS, etc. That’s a big reason why Windows is even usable for an average user.

            Around half my applications on Windows were FOSS even before I moved to Linux and I used them for a long time. The proprietary apps I did use, I don’t really miss. I also doubt anybody actually likes having to install drivers on Windows or browse the web for apps. It’s just extra bullshit.

    • 257m
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      241 year ago

      There is a difference between steady and small.

    • @markon@lemmy.world
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      101 year ago

      Actually… The Steam Deck runs on Valve’s custom Arch Linux. To say there is no steady userbase is simply not true.

      • Nobsi
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        91 year ago

        Touché. I would like to counter that with “Not a desktop though” and end my turn with “wine required to use company software”

        • @TeddE@lemmy.world
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          21 year ago

          Between Microsoft’s open source Vulcan enhancements and Valve’s everything else enhancements both being contributed upstream, “Wine required” doesn’t have quite the same punch it used to.

          Pours myself a shot for having to thank Microsoft

      • Zoolander
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        What a dishonest argument. They’re using a curated overlay for Linux that mostly hides the Linux part from them completely. The fact that there’s a “Desktop Mode” doesn’t change the fact that 99% of Steam Deck users aren’t in Desktop mode.

        Edit: If someone bought a smart appliance with a screen whose software was Linux on the backend, we wouldn’t count people who bought that appliance (a refrigerator, for example) as “Linux users”. The Steam Deck is the same way for 95% of its users.

        • @Doxin@yiffit.net
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          61 year ago

          They’re using a curated overlay for Linux

          This is commonly known as a “distro”. SteamOS is just particularly good at being user friendly for it’s fairly narrow use-case.

          • Zoolander
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            21 year ago

            SteamOS is the distro. Big Picture/Steam Deck is an overlay for the Steam application and what the majority of Steam Deck users are using and experiencing. They’re not using it for day to day applications and browsing the internet.

            • @Doxin@yiffit.net
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              01 year ago

              I’d probably call Big Picture the Desktop environment in this case. Yes it’s a simplified linux experience, but it’s not not linux.

              • Zoolander
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                11 year ago

                The point is that you could swap what OS it is in the background and it wouldn’t make a difference that it’s Linux. The Steam Deck could be running Windows with Big Picture on top of it and no one would be the wiser. It’s misleading to say that Steam Deck users are Linux users if they don’t even use any of the Linux environment.

                • @Doxin@yiffit.net
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                  01 year ago

                  But that’s true for anything. you could swap out the OS under gnome and most users wouldn’t notice either.

  • masterofn001
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    I don’t have a printer.

    I don’t like open ports.

    Decides to remove CUPS.

    “apt list -i *cups*”

    There are like 7 CUPS packages and dependencies.

    for each package “apt remove cups --simulate”

    Get to package 6 and decide ‘Ok. No major issues, looks fine.’

    For the first 6 packages “sudo apt remove CUPS

    This is easy and painless!

    On 7th …

    Removing cups-pk or some shit… Removing mint-common… Removing cinnamon-desktop…

    Oh, fuck

      • masterofn001
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        When I was new to Linux I broke EVERYTHING.

        Often.

        The more you break, the more you learn.

        Nobody tells me I can’t modify this file.

        Eg. I once accidentally chmodded the entire root directory. (Recursion incident)

        Linux does not like when the root fs permissions are ALL changed.

        I had no internet at the time. And no idea what timeshift was.

        Thankfully, I had a library card.

        Learned a lot about permissions that month.

        (I enjoy doing things the hard way)

        • Chewy
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          21 year ago

          Did you manage to get your system working again? Iirc I did the same on Arch a few years ago and it wasn’t too bad to restore the system after looking at the permissions on a fresh install (maybe a container or vm, idr).

          • masterofn001
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            I tried. It was so long ago now I can’t even remember. It was xubuntu, though.

            But, I’m pretty sure I had to take it down to the local shop and get a copy of the iso since I didn’t have a fresh install to compare. (This wasn’t the only time I absolutely borked my machine)

            Nowadays, I backup everything. I image the partitions. I create a separate partition for home. And I know what to never touch.

            • Chewy
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              21 year ago

              Agreed, backups are important. Before switching to NixOS (or image based OS like Fedora Silverblue) I made use of automatic btrfs snapshots. This makes these kinds of screw-ups simple to revert.

              I’d like to say an overly optimistic chmod -R didn’t happen again but my old Nextcloud instance would like a word.

              Thanks for reminding to do my backups again. I’ve recently build a server with enough storage so I’ll probably setup restic or borg. That means I can bring my external backup HDD over to my family as an offline/offsite backup.

    • GreenBottles
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      21 year ago

      I did something very similar while I was drunkenly troubleshooting issues on an old laptop and I gave up as soon as I saw the desktop going I just closed the lid and reformatted the next day

  • @Matriks404@lemmy.world
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    271 year ago

    Yeah, you can run old app on Linux, as long as you compile it manually while solving a shitton of dependency problems.

  • @Swarfega@lemm.ee
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    241 year ago

    I’m predominantly a Windows user. However I dual boot with Mint as I am trying to get away from Windows. It’s really not easy but I’m trying.

    I gotta say though these types of posts make me cringe. I really don’t know why some Linux users put themselves on a pedestal all the time. You make these sorts of smug posts making out that Linux is perfect. I have never installed Linux and had it just work. There is always something that requires searching the web for a fix and firing up the terminal to start changing something in /etc/.

    I get it. You’re proud of your technology. But vegans are proud they don’t eat animal products. We don’t need to keep selling it to the rest of the world.

    • I’ve found it easier to use KDE to switch from windows as it feels like a more complete ecosystem that I’m familiar with. And it is pretty great, until I install one bad graphics driver and then I’m stuck in a terminal only session until I can fix it. At least windows has safe mode.

      • Polar
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        01 year ago

        Meanwhile KDE/Fedora gave me the most issues on both my laptop and desktop.

        The UI drops to 1hz refresh rate for some reason.

        My mouse cursor theme was causing issues with Firefox. My mouse would just disappear when using Firefox.

        Konsole and Dolphin kept opening in a tiny window, where I had to expand it every time to see the text. No amount of saving preferences would fix it.

        The logout button hard locked my PC. Only way to fix it was to reboot my PC with the power button.

        Steam constantly locked up, even when trying to play games rated GOLD on Protondb.

        Davinci resolve refused to launch. Kept giving me errors.

        I then gave up. Most of the issues never got fixed, and the ones that I did manage to fix took HOURS of Googling. These are all such basic features/tasks that literally work out of the box on Windows/Mac.

    • @LemoineFairclough@sh.itjust.worksOP
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      1 year ago

      What problems do you have most often? Can you come up with a description of a class of problems you have that would account for most of the time you spend troubleshooting?

      Who provided the documentation you used to install a Linux operating system you had trouble with? I don’t recall having serious issues after installing openSUSE or Fedora Linux or even NixOS, and I certainly don’t recall having any issues of above-average importance that weren’t a direct result of my intentional actions (e.g. trying to permanently change what DNS servers would be used).

    • @voidMainVoid@lemmy.world
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      41 year ago

      I was having trouble getting a DVD ripped, so I thought “Fuck it. I’m going to try dd”. I used .iso for the file extension, and it worked.

      • ferret
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        11 year ago

        I mean that is more a product of how .iso files are just the whole disk as a binary with a file extension

  • @BlueDwaggin@pawb.social
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    161 year ago

    I had the opposite problem with Windows 11.

    My typical way of shutting down my machine was Alt-D, Show Desktop, then Alt-F4, which brings up a shutdown menu.

    For whatever reason in Win 11, they made this menu unable to trigger updates. So for the first several months of my Win 11 install it was quietly never receiving any updates at all.