Social media is abuzz with a survey showing 12th-grade boys are twice as likely to identify as conservative. The reality is a little more complicated, writes Arwa Mahdawi
Sorry, OP, but this is a garbage op-ed. It offers very little information about, much less insight into the study in question, meaning mostly the article just serves to give the author a chance to express her political slant via pejorative adjectives towards right-wing groups. The fact that I happen to agree with her slant doesn’t change the fact that it’s not a good article.
I for one think it’s a phenomenon worth investigating further, this question of why young men in particular are saying they feel alienated from both political parties. I don’t know, but I strongly suspect the extent to which Democrats embrace increasingly exclusionary and misandrist slogans created by feminists is part of it.
Feminism is very important for women’s rights, but I’ve realized as I’ve grown up that the movement’s leaders have absolutely zero interest in policing their man-hating radicals. Whenever said radicals are brought up—even when it’s in a mainstream context—feminists are quick to dismiss them and claim it’s unfair to judge the movement by their statements. To which my response is: if you can’t be bothered to keep their misandrist talking points out of your mainstream discourse, then I have no reason to believe they’re as fringe as you say, much less that you actually disagree with them.
To the extent that democrats either embrace or tolerate this kind of talk (and they do), I can easily see how a teenage boy who leans liberal would hesitate to identify as such when they hear liberal mouthpieces pushing language and concepts that either demonize, exclude, or minimize men. It’s a problem the Democrats have not taken seriously, and I sincerely hope they start to, because the Right is eager to capitalize on it.
It’s not an op-ed, it’s just reporting on the study and reactions to it. The whole article is barely six paragraphs long and doesn’t get into any editorializing. The survey also says about a third still haven’t made up their mind.
And if you’re going to spout of reasons why this is the case, it would be great if you would have something concrete to back up your assertion beyond your gut telling you this is the case. Do you have statistics about how much exposure the average teenage boy has to radical feminists?
It’s literally in the “Opinion” section of the Guardian’s website.
Do you have statistics about how much exposure the average teenage boy has to radical feminists?
No, not on hand. This is just my opinion, but the author of the op-ed above even suggests feminist slogans might be part of the reason why the data from the study looks the way it does. Teenage boys are at least as exposed to social media as the rest of us (or do I need an official study to make that claim too?), so I think it’s safe to assume they’re exposed to posts about “toxic masculinity,” “mansplaining,” “manspreading,” “#yesallmen,” “ironic misandry,” and articles like this and this.
To be pejorative of course, most of those are objectively actual things. It’s like when I say they’re entitled to their “opinion” I’m actually implying they don’t know asshole from elbow.
Well, I’m sure you realize you’ll be taken less seriously when you take such a broadly mocking approach up front and then only temper it when asked. You sound a bit like the feminists you’re criticizing.
This right here. People like you that push that shit at teenage boys. This is why they are turning right. I know a lot of people who flipped parties purely cuz they can’t stand that sort of bullshit. Or that flipped because they are wick and tired of every straight white guy being called a racist. We are all pissed that our parents and grandparents fucked up the system with their apathy and blind trust in institutions that fucked us over.
I’ve actually read the very short article and the author’s opinion isn’t mentioned. It cites opinions of other people a lot, which would explain it being in op ed.
So you’d rather all women spend their time running around shouting “not all women” instead of like…being whole humans with their own interests and personalities? What a creepy take.
The idea that some women are responsible for other people’s behaviors is a tale as old as time. Feminists are not responsible for the actions of misandrists and TERFs. We are people, with our own thoughts and feelings. Stop holding us accountable for the actions of people that we don’t even associate with.
By taking on patriarchy, feminists are advocating for men’s issues too because the patriarchy hurts everyone. Issues such as men’s mental health, male sexual assault victims, homelessness, lack of paternity leave, are all under the umbrella of feminism. Men who say they are not feminists are acting against their own self interests.
Ever since someone pointed out how similar feminism is to religion, I can’t unsee it. You employ the exact same No True Scotsman defenses and demand people only pay attention to your good actions and ignore all your bad ones.
No True Scotsman doesn’t really make sense without an effort to define what a Scotsman is in the first place. What feminism are we talking about? Are we so caught up on labeling people as feminists and misandrists that we’ve stopped talking about underlying ideas or caring about the internal conflicts within that camp?
As someone who’s queer as hell, I’ve seen this play out time and time again - someone who’s queer does something terrible, (because we’re just people, a mix of good and bad) the media plays up that incident and re-stokes the debate over whether or not we get to exist, then people in my life suddenly look to me as somehow responsible or associated with or benefiting from that person’s actions, simply due to the labeled association. Truth is, I only have direct insight into people I’m close to, queer or no. And so when I express my lack of political or personal connection with that person, it’s perceived as No True Scotsman, even though the original perceived connection was shaky at best.
As with all groups of people, take feminists as a mixed bag of people with varying ideas, who aren’t all responsible for what everyone else thinks. We’re all better off expressing ideas one-on-one rather than playing to these tribal labels. I think you are absolutely correct in that some rhetoric employed in service of feminism has alienated a sector of young men, but we can’t forget how media paints persecution narratives out of single tweets and snappy hot takes and holds everyone who labels themselves a feminist responsible.
Your kidding me right? Comparing feminism to religion when most religions are anti-feminist is a whole new level of deranged takes that I wouldn’t expect to see on Lemmy.
I don’t think you understand what the no true Scottsman fallacy is, nor the fact that you are employing it. I am a feminist, aka the Scottsman, and you are attempting to define what I am. What I am and what I support is not defined by you. Think about the relevance of your own experiences first. Consider that you are not a feminist and I am, and why that would make you qualified to define my beliefs (hint: it doesn’t).
I think you will find some articles you like and some that you don’t. Politics is a large umbrella and not everything will be a subject you are interested in.
Sorry, OP, but this is a garbage op-ed. It offers very little information about, much less insight into the study in question, meaning mostly the article just serves to give the author a chance to express her political slant via pejorative adjectives towards right-wing groups. The fact that I happen to agree with her slant doesn’t change the fact that it’s not a good article.
I for one think it’s a phenomenon worth investigating further, this question of why young men in particular are saying they feel alienated from both political parties. I don’t know, but I strongly suspect the extent to which Democrats embrace increasingly exclusionary and misandrist slogans created by feminists is part of it.
Feminism is very important for women’s rights, but I’ve realized as I’ve grown up that the movement’s leaders have absolutely zero interest in policing their man-hating radicals. Whenever said radicals are brought up—even when it’s in a mainstream context—feminists are quick to dismiss them and claim it’s unfair to judge the movement by their statements. To which my response is: if you can’t be bothered to keep their misandrist talking points out of your mainstream discourse, then I have no reason to believe they’re as fringe as you say, much less that you actually disagree with them.
To the extent that democrats either embrace or tolerate this kind of talk (and they do), I can easily see how a teenage boy who leans liberal would hesitate to identify as such when they hear liberal mouthpieces pushing language and concepts that either demonize, exclude, or minimize men. It’s a problem the Democrats have not taken seriously, and I sincerely hope they start to, because the Right is eager to capitalize on it.
It’s not an op-ed, it’s just reporting on the study and reactions to it. The whole article is barely six paragraphs long and doesn’t get into any editorializing. The survey also says about a third still haven’t made up their mind.
And if you’re going to spout of reasons why this is the case, it would be great if you would have something concrete to back up your assertion beyond your gut telling you this is the case. Do you have statistics about how much exposure the average teenage boy has to radical feminists?
It’s literally in the “Opinion” section of the Guardian’s website.
No, not on hand. This is just my opinion, but the author of the op-ed above even suggests feminist slogans might be part of the reason why the data from the study looks the way it does. Teenage boys are at least as exposed to social media as the rest of us (or do I need an official study to make that claim too?), so I think it’s safe to assume they’re exposed to posts about “toxic masculinity,” “mansplaining,” “manspreading,” “#yesallmen,” “ironic misandry,” and articles like this and this.
Why did you put quotes around toxic masculinity?
To be pejorative of course, most of those are objectively actual things. It’s like when I say they’re entitled to their “opinion” I’m actually implying they don’t know asshole from elbow.
Well, I’m sure you realize you’ll be taken less seriously when you take such a broadly mocking approach up front and then only temper it when asked. You sound a bit like the feminists you’re criticizing.
Look at usernames, prepare yourself.
I really should.
This right here. People like you that push that shit at teenage boys. This is why they are turning right. I know a lot of people who flipped parties purely cuz they can’t stand that sort of bullshit. Or that flipped because they are wick and tired of every straight white guy being called a racist. We are all pissed that our parents and grandparents fucked up the system with their apathy and blind trust in institutions that fucked us over.
I didn’t push anything, can you two not read a username?
I’ve actually read the very short article and the author’s opinion isn’t mentioned. It cites opinions of other people a lot, which would explain it being in op ed.
Did we read the same thing?
So you’d rather all women spend their time running around shouting “not all women” instead of like…being whole humans with their own interests and personalities? What a creepy take.
No. Reread my comment and try to think harder.
Removed by mod
The idea that some women are responsible for other people’s behaviors is a tale as old as time. Feminists are not responsible for the actions of misandrists and TERFs. We are people, with our own thoughts and feelings. Stop holding us accountable for the actions of people that we don’t even associate with.
By taking on patriarchy, feminists are advocating for men’s issues too because the patriarchy hurts everyone. Issues such as men’s mental health, male sexual assault victims, homelessness, lack of paternity leave, are all under the umbrella of feminism. Men who say they are not feminists are acting against their own self interests.
Ever since someone pointed out how similar feminism is to religion, I can’t unsee it. You employ the exact same No True Scotsman defenses and demand people only pay attention to your good actions and ignore all your bad ones.
Sorry, I’m not drinking that Kool Aid.
No True Scotsman doesn’t really make sense without an effort to define what a Scotsman is in the first place. What feminism are we talking about? Are we so caught up on labeling people as feminists and misandrists that we’ve stopped talking about underlying ideas or caring about the internal conflicts within that camp?
As someone who’s queer as hell, I’ve seen this play out time and time again - someone who’s queer does something terrible, (because we’re just people, a mix of good and bad) the media plays up that incident and re-stokes the debate over whether or not we get to exist, then people in my life suddenly look to me as somehow responsible or associated with or benefiting from that person’s actions, simply due to the labeled association. Truth is, I only have direct insight into people I’m close to, queer or no. And so when I express my lack of political or personal connection with that person, it’s perceived as No True Scotsman, even though the original perceived connection was shaky at best.
As with all groups of people, take feminists as a mixed bag of people with varying ideas, who aren’t all responsible for what everyone else thinks. We’re all better off expressing ideas one-on-one rather than playing to these tribal labels. I think you are absolutely correct in that some rhetoric employed in service of feminism has alienated a sector of young men, but we can’t forget how media paints persecution narratives out of single tweets and snappy hot takes and holds everyone who labels themselves a feminist responsible.
Your kidding me right? Comparing feminism to religion when most religions are anti-feminist is a whole new level of deranged takes that I wouldn’t expect to see on Lemmy.
I don’t think you understand what the no true Scottsman fallacy is, nor the fact that you are employing it. I am a feminist, aka the Scottsman, and you are attempting to define what I am. What I am and what I support is not defined by you. Think about the relevance of your own experiences first. Consider that you are not a feminist and I am, and why that would make you qualified to define my beliefs (hint: it doesn’t).
It sounds like you’re giving us the thumbs up to hold you accountable for the rhetoric of the far-right then?
Ever notice how fascism is similar to religion? Just look at the GOP. It’s a giant cult
I think you will find some articles you like and some that you don’t. Politics is a large umbrella and not everything will be a subject you are interested in.