You still would be voting for a self proclaimed non-Jewish Zionist whose pockets are lined by Israel to commit genocide. Don’t let any “other side” or bullshit “trolley problem” argument take that away from you. At least have the balls to own it. This whole purely pragmatic approach to “lesser evil dilemma” is what brought Biden to power in the first place. But yeah surely next time it’ll be better. Doesn’t matter how many people die because “Orange man bad”.
Since I couldn’t get the message across on my first comment, let me repeat myself. There is no lesser evil when it comes to genocide.
The corollary of “there is no lesser evil”, is “there is no greater evil”. You’re saying that there is absolutely no crime that could be committed that would be worse? Like, say, genocide AND a descent into fascism? Maybe flavored with a nice sprinkling of loss of women’s rights?
Don’t forget that Trump has pretty much called for a genocide right here at home in the US, against trans people, against immigrants, and against pretty much anyone who doesn’t share his views. This doesn’t even count the stuff that his donors and PACs already have lined up for him to sign as soon as he sits his ass in the chair, or the fact that several US states have attempted to decriminalize murdering certain groups of people.
Trump would absolutely make the genocide significantly worse than the track it’s currently on if he wins. And he’s gonna make life in the US worse too. The “both sides are equally bad” rhetoric has absolutely failed over the last 8 years. If he lost in 2016 the entire world would be on a completely different track and if you don’t want to believe it then I’m confident that you don’t actually know the differences in policy and ideologies between the Democratic and Republican parties.
And before anyone says I’m accuses me of being a liberal, I’m a libertarian socialist and I’m registered to the Socialist Party of Massachusetts. I voted Bernie in both primaries then Green Party in 2016 (which I’ve come to regret even though Clinton was going to win my home state by a huge margin) then Biden in 2020. I voted this way in '20 because while Biden ignores socialists Trump wants them all dead.
Keeping the working class healthy and productive is just good business, not equality.
Social democracy is the natural evolution of enlightened self interest from a ruling class, aka, well fed serfs are not only more productive than slaves or starving peasants, they don’t put your head in a guillotine.
But they are still serfs. As long as their well being is a privilege and not a right, or the reward of their own labor from means the worker themselves own, the ruling class is still in control, and can hold the threat of revocation above them.
It could even be reasonably argued that socdem countries, or maybe even broader speaking liberal democracies, already had the necessary revolutions we just need to get better at dismantling the remnants of the old by providing alternatives in ways that don’t risk other advances. Pretty much parallel to the Sudden Enlightenment, Gradual Cultivation doctrine you see in Zen: Neither is it guaranteed that you notice enlightenment (in the sense of realising that that’s what happened to you), nor is it in any way guaranteed that you suddenly cease to be a shithead. Nor will you find a way of gradual cultivation that makes you unlearn how to tie your shoes. Not going to happen.
Or, differently put: If you wish to convert a village to anarchism, one of the first things to do is figure out how to organise trash collection and water distribution. You might say “but it’s a state mandate that municipalities provide these things! We haven’t agreed to anything like that!”. My sibling in Discord you’re ready to abolish bedtime when you’re wise enough to voluntarily go to bed early, again. Don’t make theoretical principles the enemy of praxis.
Ethnic exclusion, racism, a wealth of natural resources, a small population, and no real geopolitical tensions to worry about (prior to joining NATO, at least). Hm.
Yeah I was about to say. Like Scandinavia has a high standard of living, but it’s still capitalist/corporatist as fuck, still has a lot of the problems of right-wing and even far-right ideologies, and is 100% not ideal and probably not sustainable in the modern world (especially considering their welfare capitalism ended up getting people elected into office who are trying to dismantle the social protections and laws that make the countries successful in the first place). Welfare capitalism isn’t a good middle ground because it’s extremely likely to drift back towards regular old capitalism.
There is no lesser evil when it comes to genocide.
This is obviously untrue. If the option a) is genocide and b) is genocide and also dismantling the methods to protest it, methods to oust the decision makers, dismantling national security in resources and relationships, at the same time as blatantly plundering both the pockets of citizens and communal coffers, there’s very obviously a more evil option.
Equivocation and black-white thinking is comfortable, but there are still shades of brown when the shit has hit the fan.
In the best of worlds you wouldn’t be in this situation, now you are, make the better choice.
Yeah so let’s elect a man that said he’d be a dictator to the highest office and put him in charge of the largest military on the globe. Sounds like a nice alternative in our facsimile of democracy.
Lemmy sure does seem to have a more vocal insane minority that are either Russian shills, or just want to burn down the US. This is my biggest issue with the fediverse.
Anyone who claims Trump and Biden are the same is just a fool.
There is no purpose to that line of thinking in our election system. They believe you should vote for who you truly want and do not compromise. In a perfect world this is how it would be. We do not inhabit a perfect world, it is our job to build towards it. The only thing to do in the interim is to make sure the American Empire is not brandished as a sword of Trump’s will and push to change the way we vote to a ranked system. It is easier to start this ranked movement locally and then take it to the feds.
Yeah a lot of people here are ideologues without a real ideology, they don’t really have much interest in actually making things better they’re just desperate to feel superior to the rest of us. Basically conspiracy theory mentality ‘I know the real truth and you’re all dumb’ but ‘I’m more ideologically pure than you’ that’s why it’s always such extreme and totally one sided - they won’t interact with the reality because it makes it harder to feel so correct when you admit things like this conflict is incredibly complex politically and morally
There is no lesser evil when it comes to genocide. You have already hit rock bottom.
What if the other side is also genocide along with totalitarian fascist rule?
You still would be voting for a self proclaimed non-Jewish Zionist whose pockets are lined by Israel to commit genocide. Don’t let any “other side” or bullshit “trolley problem” argument take that away from you. At least have the balls to own it. This whole purely pragmatic approach to “lesser evil dilemma” is what brought Biden to power in the first place. But yeah surely next time it’ll be better. Doesn’t matter how many people die because “Orange man bad”.
Since I couldn’t get the message across on my first comment, let me repeat myself. There is no lesser evil when it comes to genocide.
The corollary of “there is no lesser evil”, is “there is no greater evil”. You’re saying that there is absolutely no crime that could be committed that would be worse? Like, say, genocide AND a descent into fascism? Maybe flavored with a nice sprinkling of loss of women’s rights?
Don’t forget he’s also a serial war criminal pardoner, on top of everybody else. The orange man has no respect for human rights
Don’t forget that Trump has pretty much called for a genocide right here at home in the US, against trans people, against immigrants, and against pretty much anyone who doesn’t share his views. This doesn’t even count the stuff that his donors and PACs already have lined up for him to sign as soon as he sits his ass in the chair, or the fact that several US states have attempted to decriminalize murdering certain groups of people.
It’s just a trumpet, pay it no mind
Trump would absolutely make the genocide significantly worse than the track it’s currently on if he wins. And he’s gonna make life in the US worse too. The “both sides are equally bad” rhetoric has absolutely failed over the last 8 years. If he lost in 2016 the entire world would be on a completely different track and if you don’t want to believe it then I’m confident that you don’t actually know the differences in policy and ideologies between the Democratic and Republican parties.
And before anyone says I’m accuses me of being a liberal, I’m a libertarian socialist and I’m registered to the Socialist Party of Massachusetts. I voted Bernie in both primaries then Green Party in 2016 (which I’ve come to regret even though Clinton was going to win my home state by a huge margin) then Biden in 2020. I voted this way in '20 because while Biden ignores socialists Trump wants them all dead.
Socialism without revolution is a fringe and hopeless endeavour. It requires fundamentally changing the mechanisms by which the economy functions.
Scandinavia says ‘Hi, we found a middle ground!’
Yes, but we also have proportional representation in our parliaments. Making gradual ideological change realistic.
Keeping the working class healthy and productive is just good business, not equality.
Social democracy is the natural evolution of enlightened self interest from a ruling class, aka, well fed serfs are not only more productive than slaves or starving peasants, they don’t put your head in a guillotine.
But they are still serfs. As long as their well being is a privilege and not a right, or the reward of their own labor from means the worker themselves own, the ruling class is still in control, and can hold the threat of revocation above them.
It could even be reasonably argued that socdem countries, or maybe even broader speaking liberal democracies, already had the necessary revolutions we just need to get better at dismantling the remnants of the old by providing alternatives in ways that don’t risk other advances. Pretty much parallel to the Sudden Enlightenment, Gradual Cultivation doctrine you see in Zen: Neither is it guaranteed that you notice enlightenment (in the sense of realising that that’s what happened to you), nor is it in any way guaranteed that you suddenly cease to be a shithead. Nor will you find a way of gradual cultivation that makes you unlearn how to tie your shoes. Not going to happen.
Or, differently put: If you wish to convert a village to anarchism, one of the first things to do is figure out how to organise trash collection and water distribution. You might say “but it’s a state mandate that municipalities provide these things! We haven’t agreed to anything like that!”. My sibling in Discord you’re ready to abolish bedtime when you’re wise enough to voluntarily go to bed early, again. Don’t make theoretical principles the enemy of praxis.
Ethnic exclusion, racism, a wealth of natural resources, a small population, and no real geopolitical tensions to worry about (prior to joining NATO, at least). Hm.
I’m sure this is a robust and scalable model.
Yeah I was about to say. Like Scandinavia has a high standard of living, but it’s still capitalist/corporatist as fuck, still has a lot of the problems of right-wing and even far-right ideologies, and is 100% not ideal and probably not sustainable in the modern world (especially considering their welfare capitalism ended up getting people elected into office who are trying to dismantle the social protections and laws that make the countries successful in the first place). Welfare capitalism isn’t a good middle ground because it’s extremely likely to drift back towards regular old capitalism.
Don’t come here to lemmy.world with your reasonable takes on socialism. Don’t you know socialism is bad?
Revolution more often than not results in authoritarianism, and is therefore just as hopeless.
This is obviously untrue. If the option a) is genocide and b) is genocide and also dismantling the methods to protest it, methods to oust the decision makers, dismantling national security in resources and relationships, at the same time as blatantly plundering both the pockets of citizens and communal coffers, there’s very obviously a more evil option.
Equivocation and black-white thinking is comfortable, but there are still shades of brown when the shit has hit the fan.
In the best of worlds you wouldn’t be in this situation, now you are, make the better choice.
That bit of poetry touched my heart. Thank you.
Yeah so let’s elect a man that said he’d be a dictator to the highest office and put him in charge of the largest military on the globe. Sounds like a nice alternative in our facsimile of democracy.
Lemmy sure does seem to have a more vocal insane minority that are either Russian shills, or just want to burn down the US. This is my biggest issue with the fediverse.
Anyone who claims Trump and Biden are the same is just a fool.
There is no purpose to that line of thinking in our election system. They believe you should vote for who you truly want and do not compromise. In a perfect world this is how it would be. We do not inhabit a perfect world, it is our job to build towards it. The only thing to do in the interim is to make sure the American Empire is not brandished as a sword of Trump’s will and push to change the way we vote to a ranked system. It is easier to start this ranked movement locally and then take it to the feds.
Yeah a lot of people here are ideologues without a real ideology, they don’t really have much interest in actually making things better they’re just desperate to feel superior to the rest of us. Basically conspiracy theory mentality ‘I know the real truth and you’re all dumb’ but ‘I’m more ideologically pure than you’ that’s why it’s always such extreme and totally one sided - they won’t interact with the reality because it makes it harder to feel so correct when you admit things like this conflict is incredibly complex politically and morally
I agree.