And yet, you act as though the better alternative was not sleeping with the dogs and letting the Nazis win?
Which outcome would you have preferred? Think ahead here, my friend.
Also, why would Biden need to move his policies if he’s pretty conservative to begin with?
I’m simply responding to the notion that Biden is “moving right” by appealing to Haley voters. I’ve still yet to see any evidence whatsoever of this claim. Inviting Haley voters into a preestablished structure isn’t “moving right.” Saying Biden is conservative to begin with != “moving right.” One is a present state; the other is a transitioning state that has yet to be evidenced in any capacity.
When we allied with the Soviet Union and china, we weren’t welcoming them into our country and into our political influence. We were working with them for a common cause of defeating the nazis. Biden is welcoming Haley Voters into his campaign and they will remain there even after (if) Biden wins the election. The room is full of conservatives, so it should make plenty of sense why leftists and progressives would rather leave the room than stick around people who want them dead.
If Biden moved any more right, he’d be trump. The only thing Biden has left that’s vaguely progressive is not wanting to kill people who are queer. If pinkwashed fascism is enough for you, that’s fine, but you have to understand that other people have higher standards.
I seriously doubt Haley voters will be permanently welcomed in, or rather, I doubt they’ll stay themselves. I think they’ll dip the second another Romney-esque corporate Republican comes about – and Biden is just too left of Romney for them to stay for long.
Either way, they’re a useful tool to ensure Trump doesn’t get elected. Like you said, we are working with Haley voters for “a common cause of defeating the nazis” in November. Let’s not put the cart before the horse. Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it. Let’s worry about make-up of the party after we defeat the literal nazis in November, yes?
I don’t see evidence to support the claim that Biden moving “any” more right and he’d be Trump. He’d have to transition quite a few ticks before achieving that; nevertheless, we should always embrace “less Trump” than Trump himself, so I’ll take it. The thing is, I still haven’t seen any evidence presented whatsoever that Biden as “moved right” to appeal to Haley voters. Until you can provide a modicum of evidence to this, I think your claim is dead in the water.
I’m sure nazis/stormfront/proud boys are also a useful tool for trump to get re-elected and he definitely didn’t start changing his policy to appease them… We aren’t going to agree on this, obviously. You can’t change your base without changing your policy eventually. And if Biden were to suddenly grow a spine and decide to be more progressive, the Nikki Haley voters will suddenly flip to being trump voters (or any reactionary equivalent to him) because they feel lied to. At best, Nikki Haley voters means Biden will be stuck politically, not able to move left even an inch. And at worst, he is free to move as far right as he wants due to liberals being generally okay with voting for him regardless of his support of genocide.
Biden could suddenly appeal to nazis/stormfront/proud boys if he wanted to earn their votes, too, but he clearly doesn’t. And therein lies the difference: Haley voters vs. Stormfront/proud boys. If you think there is minimal distance between these two groups then I don’t know what to say. The mere point that we can’t agree on this is exemplary as to why Biden must make concessions with the electorate in the first place in order to ensure the far-worse poison doesn’t get into the White House in November.
Until you can provide an alternative solution to rally voters to put Biden over the 270 electoral votes, this is pie-in-the-sky dreaming in my view. Nevertheless, I appreciate the cordial discussion.
Honestly (and this is the point I thought you were going to make) there are more Nikki Haley voters than leftists in this country. I think nazis/stormfront/proud boys are too many, but not enough to influence an election.
The issue I’m seeing with Biden not giving concessions to leftists and progressives is that they’re mainly the ones who have boots on the ground helping Biden get elected. Without politically active people who believe they can influence Biden helping him win, I’m not seeing any hope for his chances. The secondary effect is that once you lose leftists and progressives, they’re VERY vocal online about why they aren’t happy, which also hurts Biden’s chances. So leftists and progressives might not be as numerous as Nikki Haley voters, but they still have influence over how people perceive this administration. I’m not sure if that effect is even quantifiable, or what matters more between the Nikki haley voters who choose to vote for him or the progressives/leftists who inadvertently cause apathy. Who knows. But if he cares about winning (which is still debatable as far as I’m concerned), he’d start giving concessions fast.
I see your concerns and find many of your points reasonable here. If you could be more explicit about what concessions to progressives he could give that he hasn’t already and wouldn’t otherwise jeopardizing another key voting-bloc in swing-states with swing-votes nonetheless, I’d be really interested to know. In that respect – even among long-time progressives – Biden has been one of the more progressive Presidents we’ve had. Even Bernie, AOC , Warren agree.
What I’m saying is I think it’s clear that Bernie sat down with Biden in order to receive his endorsement, put Bernie in a leading budgetary role, and Biden pivoted left relative to where he was, say, 10-years-ago.
Circling back to my comment before: How far can he capitulate before it backfires with another voting bloc and again risks the literal nazi winning in just 8 months time?
I’ll give you a glimpse into leftist spaces real quick: most people in there thinks Bernie, AOC, Warren, and even Katie porter are sellouts/traitors due to being slow or silent on their support of global colonialist projects. Likening them to a Kristen Sinema-esque person in progressive’s clothing. Having them agree with Biden not only reinforces this opinion leftists have of them, but it becomes plainly obvious that none of them would have jobs anymore if Biden doesn’t win, so it’s in their best interest to capitulate towards the status quo.
If he was to break our arms partnerships with Israel and abstains from all future UN votes on Israel (which in no means fixes the situation here or abroad), I’m sure progressives could go back to holding their nose and voting for him. Honestly, so much shit needs to be addressed that’s being ignored. The fact that there’s multiple “cop cities” being built in the US is appalling and worthy of withholding voting for someone who won’t address that alone, but still, progressives and leftists are used to holding our noses when it comes to horrific things we vote for, which is probably why hearing that we might be withholding due to genocide, liberals are collectively freaking out.
As far as the limits of his capitulation, he doesn’t have to worry about liberals as they’ll vote for him even if he’s literally committing a genocide, so I’m not worried about them unless gas prices start to rise and they blame him for it. Republicans have been poisoned against democrats for decades- I honestly think maybe only 5% of Nikki haley voters would consider voting for Biden. The Arab community are watching their homes and families getting decimated with the help of Biden, so it’d honestly be hard to win them back through capitulation (even though he should try). Leftists and to a greater extent progressives are the people phone banking, going door to door, getting people registered, working polls, etc, and while their numbers aren’t great, losing them is really rough for his chances at winning.
I think if he broke our arms deals, the right would scream that he’s pro-hamas like they’ve been doing this whole time. CNN and other establishment news agencies might also saying that too since their profits relies on the status quo staying firm and headlines being emotionally charged. Immediately AIPAC donations would be halted and they would push candidates who are pro Israel to run against anyone who calls what is happening a genocide (this is already happening). Winning statewide elections would become more difficult if Biden capitulates to leftists and progressives with regards to financing a campaign. I think the backfire is less against a specific voting bloc and more with the sudden stoppage of political donations. Maybe he’s waiting until AIPAC can’t sponsor competition for state elections before voting season, but it’s at the cost of Palestinian lives obviously. I’m also of a mind that the better and more relatable your ideas are, the less campaign money you need to advertise (to a certain extent). So honestly, if Biden wanted to be really sure he’d win instead of just winning back progressives and leftists, he should honestly pull out all the stops and push for popular policies. Call on congress to kill the filibuster and pack the court if you need to.
Thanks for the insight, I mean it. There is much agree with here — namely this: That the progressive grassroots organizers are the backbone of this country and that lacking voter-enthusiasm can cripple the momentum of the election, even if they vote themselves. I’ve made the same argument countless times when discussing the pitfalls of Hillary and to a lesser extent the risks to Biden. I also do agree there is merit to advocating for a policy that while it may be unpopular is the right thing to do. People with convictions are attractive; that’s what distinguishes a good leader from an average leader — one who can see ahead of the curve and convince people of a direction before they get there. Unfortunately I don’t think Biden is that; and I don’t think that can happen in the 8 months we have left. What the polls are will likely be where they remain for many of these issues.
My response breaks down across 4 main points:
Whether liberals will break with Biden, or whether progressives will — and really, neither of these groups will likely break. These aren’t the swing-voters in swing-states. What, are progressives who are traditionally the most-educated and civic-engaged ideological group suddenly decide to let Trump win? How will that advance their goals except for taking 2 or more steps back?
The vast majority of the shit that needs addressed and is being ignored as you mention is a direct result of the GOP obstructionism, combined with systemic such as the Supreme Court and Electoral College — NOT because Democrats don’t desire to do it. Every single thing Biden is doing is related to how popular things are; that’s the problem: appealing to millions of people from a wide variety of backgrounds. Sure you and I want the filibuster removed, but low-educated rural swing-voters in Ohio, Nevada, Arizona don’t even know what a filibuster is.
I worry there’s an element to the leftist movement that armchair purity tests at the cost of advancing progress. Instead of recognizing Bernie and AOC for what they’re doing — actually running for office and seeing how the system operates from the inside — there are a lot who just cast them off as never being on their side in the first place, which I personally think is heavily myopic. In other words: What’s more likely: that Bernie, AOC, Warren are traitors, or the Lemmy crowd of tankies of sub-22-year-olds are woefully out-of-touch with reality all the while possibly being subject to right-wing astroturfing to wedge-drive?
Yes the right-wing media machine will constantly call Biden Pro-Hamas, but it won’t stick as effectively with critical swing-voters and apathetics as if he, for example, withdrew aid. Forget the the massive risk again in doing so when if Israel suffers another October 7th then everyone will paint Biden as leaving Israel defenseless and antisemitic. This is simply not good optics and would give the propaganda from the right legitimate bite with said swing-voters. I’m no advisor to Biden but if I was this would certainly be a consideration, for I don’t even rule out a false-flag for Netanyahu.
And yet, you act as though the better alternative was not sleeping with the dogs and letting the Nazis win?
Which outcome would you have preferred? Think ahead here, my friend.
I’m simply responding to the notion that Biden is “moving right” by appealing to Haley voters. I’ve still yet to see any evidence whatsoever of this claim. Inviting Haley voters into a preestablished structure isn’t “moving right.” Saying Biden is conservative to begin with != “moving right.” One is a present state; the other is a transitioning state that has yet to be evidenced in any capacity.
When we allied with the Soviet Union and china, we weren’t welcoming them into our country and into our political influence. We were working with them for a common cause of defeating the nazis. Biden is welcoming Haley Voters into his campaign and they will remain there even after (if) Biden wins the election. The room is full of conservatives, so it should make plenty of sense why leftists and progressives would rather leave the room than stick around people who want them dead.
If Biden moved any more right, he’d be trump. The only thing Biden has left that’s vaguely progressive is not wanting to kill people who are queer. If pinkwashed fascism is enough for you, that’s fine, but you have to understand that other people have higher standards.
I seriously doubt Haley voters will be permanently welcomed in, or rather, I doubt they’ll stay themselves. I think they’ll dip the second another Romney-esque corporate Republican comes about – and Biden is just too left of Romney for them to stay for long.
Either way, they’re a useful tool to ensure Trump doesn’t get elected. Like you said, we are working with Haley voters for “a common cause of defeating the nazis” in November. Let’s not put the cart before the horse. Let’s cross that bridge when we come to it. Let’s worry about make-up of the party after we defeat the literal nazis in November, yes?
I don’t see evidence to support the claim that Biden moving “any” more right and he’d be Trump. He’d have to transition quite a few ticks before achieving that; nevertheless, we should always embrace “less Trump” than Trump himself, so I’ll take it. The thing is, I still haven’t seen any evidence presented whatsoever that Biden as “moved right” to appeal to Haley voters. Until you can provide a modicum of evidence to this, I think your claim is dead in the water.
I’m sure nazis/stormfront/proud boys are also a useful tool for trump to get re-elected and he definitely didn’t start changing his policy to appease them… We aren’t going to agree on this, obviously. You can’t change your base without changing your policy eventually. And if Biden were to suddenly grow a spine and decide to be more progressive, the Nikki Haley voters will suddenly flip to being trump voters (or any reactionary equivalent to him) because they feel lied to. At best, Nikki Haley voters means Biden will be stuck politically, not able to move left even an inch. And at worst, he is free to move as far right as he wants due to liberals being generally okay with voting for him regardless of his support of genocide.
Like I said, we aren’t going to agree on this.
Biden could suddenly appeal to nazis/stormfront/proud boys if he wanted to earn their votes, too, but he clearly doesn’t. And therein lies the difference: Haley voters vs. Stormfront/proud boys. If you think there is minimal distance between these two groups then I don’t know what to say. The mere point that we can’t agree on this is exemplary as to why Biden must make concessions with the electorate in the first place in order to ensure the far-worse poison doesn’t get into the White House in November.
Until you can provide an alternative solution to rally voters to put Biden over the 270 electoral votes, this is pie-in-the-sky dreaming in my view. Nevertheless, I appreciate the cordial discussion.
Honestly (and this is the point I thought you were going to make) there are more Nikki Haley voters than leftists in this country. I think nazis/stormfront/proud boys are too many, but not enough to influence an election.
The issue I’m seeing with Biden not giving concessions to leftists and progressives is that they’re mainly the ones who have boots on the ground helping Biden get elected. Without politically active people who believe they can influence Biden helping him win, I’m not seeing any hope for his chances. The secondary effect is that once you lose leftists and progressives, they’re VERY vocal online about why they aren’t happy, which also hurts Biden’s chances. So leftists and progressives might not be as numerous as Nikki Haley voters, but they still have influence over how people perceive this administration. I’m not sure if that effect is even quantifiable, or what matters more between the Nikki haley voters who choose to vote for him or the progressives/leftists who inadvertently cause apathy. Who knows. But if he cares about winning (which is still debatable as far as I’m concerned), he’d start giving concessions fast.
I see your concerns and find many of your points reasonable here. If you could be more explicit about what concessions to progressives he could give that he hasn’t already and wouldn’t otherwise jeopardizing another key voting-bloc in swing-states with swing-votes nonetheless, I’d be really interested to know. In that respect – even among long-time progressives – Biden has been one of the more progressive Presidents we’ve had. Even Bernie, AOC , Warren agree.
What I’m saying is I think it’s clear that Bernie sat down with Biden in order to receive his endorsement, put Bernie in a leading budgetary role, and Biden pivoted left relative to where he was, say, 10-years-ago.
Circling back to my comment before: How far can he capitulate before it backfires with another voting bloc and again risks the literal nazi winning in just 8 months time?
I’ll give you a glimpse into leftist spaces real quick: most people in there thinks Bernie, AOC, Warren, and even Katie porter are sellouts/traitors due to being slow or silent on their support of global colonialist projects. Likening them to a Kristen Sinema-esque person in progressive’s clothing. Having them agree with Biden not only reinforces this opinion leftists have of them, but it becomes plainly obvious that none of them would have jobs anymore if Biden doesn’t win, so it’s in their best interest to capitulate towards the status quo.
If he was to break our arms partnerships with Israel and abstains from all future UN votes on Israel (which in no means fixes the situation here or abroad), I’m sure progressives could go back to holding their nose and voting for him. Honestly, so much shit needs to be addressed that’s being ignored. The fact that there’s multiple “cop cities” being built in the US is appalling and worthy of withholding voting for someone who won’t address that alone, but still, progressives and leftists are used to holding our noses when it comes to horrific things we vote for, which is probably why hearing that we might be withholding due to genocide, liberals are collectively freaking out.
As far as the limits of his capitulation, he doesn’t have to worry about liberals as they’ll vote for him even if he’s literally committing a genocide, so I’m not worried about them unless gas prices start to rise and they blame him for it. Republicans have been poisoned against democrats for decades- I honestly think maybe only 5% of Nikki haley voters would consider voting for Biden. The Arab community are watching their homes and families getting decimated with the help of Biden, so it’d honestly be hard to win them back through capitulation (even though he should try). Leftists and to a greater extent progressives are the people phone banking, going door to door, getting people registered, working polls, etc, and while their numbers aren’t great, losing them is really rough for his chances at winning.
I think if he broke our arms deals, the right would scream that he’s pro-hamas like they’ve been doing this whole time. CNN and other establishment news agencies might also saying that too since their profits relies on the status quo staying firm and headlines being emotionally charged. Immediately AIPAC donations would be halted and they would push candidates who are pro Israel to run against anyone who calls what is happening a genocide (this is already happening). Winning statewide elections would become more difficult if Biden capitulates to leftists and progressives with regards to financing a campaign. I think the backfire is less against a specific voting bloc and more with the sudden stoppage of political donations. Maybe he’s waiting until AIPAC can’t sponsor competition for state elections before voting season, but it’s at the cost of Palestinian lives obviously. I’m also of a mind that the better and more relatable your ideas are, the less campaign money you need to advertise (to a certain extent). So honestly, if Biden wanted to be really sure he’d win instead of just winning back progressives and leftists, he should honestly pull out all the stops and push for popular policies. Call on congress to kill the filibuster and pack the court if you need to.
Thanks for the insight, I mean it. There is much agree with here — namely this: That the progressive grassroots organizers are the backbone of this country and that lacking voter-enthusiasm can cripple the momentum of the election, even if they vote themselves. I’ve made the same argument countless times when discussing the pitfalls of Hillary and to a lesser extent the risks to Biden. I also do agree there is merit to advocating for a policy that while it may be unpopular is the right thing to do. People with convictions are attractive; that’s what distinguishes a good leader from an average leader — one who can see ahead of the curve and convince people of a direction before they get there. Unfortunately I don’t think Biden is that; and I don’t think that can happen in the 8 months we have left. What the polls are will likely be where they remain for many of these issues.
My response breaks down across 4 main points:
Whether liberals will break with Biden, or whether progressives will — and really, neither of these groups will likely break. These aren’t the swing-voters in swing-states. What, are progressives who are traditionally the most-educated and civic-engaged ideological group suddenly decide to let Trump win? How will that advance their goals except for taking 2 or more steps back?
The vast majority of the shit that needs addressed and is being ignored as you mention is a direct result of the GOP obstructionism, combined with systemic such as the Supreme Court and Electoral College — NOT because Democrats don’t desire to do it. Every single thing Biden is doing is related to how popular things are; that’s the problem: appealing to millions of people from a wide variety of backgrounds. Sure you and I want the filibuster removed, but low-educated rural swing-voters in Ohio, Nevada, Arizona don’t even know what a filibuster is.
I worry there’s an element to the leftist movement that armchair purity tests at the cost of advancing progress. Instead of recognizing Bernie and AOC for what they’re doing — actually running for office and seeing how the system operates from the inside — there are a lot who just cast them off as never being on their side in the first place, which I personally think is heavily myopic. In other words: What’s more likely: that Bernie, AOC, Warren are traitors, or the Lemmy crowd of tankies of sub-22-year-olds are woefully out-of-touch with reality all the while possibly being subject to right-wing astroturfing to wedge-drive?
Yes the right-wing media machine will constantly call Biden Pro-Hamas, but it won’t stick as effectively with critical swing-voters and apathetics as if he, for example, withdrew aid. Forget the the massive risk again in doing so when if Israel suffers another October 7th then everyone will paint Biden as leaving Israel defenseless and antisemitic. This is simply not good optics and would give the propaganda from the right legitimate bite with said swing-voters. I’m no advisor to Biden but if I was this would certainly be a consideration, for I don’t even rule out a false-flag for Netanyahu.