I think the problem comes when it’s framed as “you can only be trans if you have a diagnosis” as opposed to “you’re trans whether you have a diagnosis or any kind of medical experience with it or not.” One can say “it took a doctor diagnosing me with dysphoria before I could accept I was trans, but I understand that this is just my experience, and I know others have their own experience” and that’s totally fine.
It should be ok to tell people, for example, that dysphoria is central to the trans condition
I don’t agree. It’s ok to say “dysphoria is central to my trans experience, though I understand this isn’t universal.” That doesn’t gatekeep anyone. In fact it’s the opposite. But it’s not ok to tell others that dysphoria or medical treatment is required to be trans.
Sure, in many locations, having a diagnosis is required before doctors will allow you to even begin HRT or consider having surgeries if you want them. But that’s just a symptom of a broken medical system that enforces cisheteronormativity, and prevents self-ID and informed consent. It’s not what actually defines what being trans is all about. It’s just a hoop people are forced to jump through.
There’s a difference between having honest and good-faith discussions about the role dysphoria, surgery and HRT play in the overall trans experience, and making broad definitive statements. That’s what actually erases others’ experiences.
The idea that a person can be socialized into being trans is directly contradictory to the idea that a trans person is born trans and that their gender identity is an unchangeable biological reality of who they are (which causes dysphoria when mismatched with their body).
You are collapsing too many ideas into one here.
There are people who through some combination of nature and nurture find themselves wanting to be treated in a way which aligns much closer to how one gender gets treated in a particular society. They may choose to transition to get this treatment despite having no dysphoria about themselves or their body. Being upset about how someone treats you is not necessarily dysphoria. There are also individuals who don’t experience their gender negatively but experience another gender more positively. They do not have dysphoria yet may choose to transition to maximize their happiness. Do not erase these individuals.
Arguing that dysphoria is central to the trans experience is a trans medicalist (truscum) viewpoint and exclusionary rhetoric isn’t nice and therefore isn’t allowed around here.
You’re literally erasing me, lol. I’m agender and trans. I did not start transitioning because of gender dysphoria. I don’t even experience gender dysphoria. If you don’t think I have the right experience to identify as trans, that’s on you my friend, but I’m not going to change my labels because you don’t think that I exist. I’m sorry if you feel that my existence jeopardizes your existence or invalidates it in any way, because there are many compatible world views in which it does not.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter either way - I only intervened here because you got reported for not being nice. So please, stop it.
I’m literally in the process of losing my right to life saving medical care in my country because of that philosophy. Because people think being trans is just a made up social thing.
Are you sure it’s because of that particular philosophy, and not of some people’s philosophy stemming from some “sacred” book, or a desire to control the sexuality of others?
At no point am I arguing that it is a made up social construct. I’m just letting you know about my existence. If my existence threatens you so much that you must throw me into a box that is not you, then go ahead and do so. I’m not out here shouting at the world about how people like me exist, I’m merely replying to your attempt to erase me. There are compatible world views which don’t erase me - which many other people have pointed out here.
I’m sorry that your country is taking away your right to life saving medical care. The same thing is happening in my country. I’d rather spend my time and energy on preserving access to medical care for everyone than fighting with folks online. Best of luck, I hope things improve for you. 💜
Otherwise you could claim a crossdresser were trans or people who claimed they were “attack helicopters” would have to be accepted as trans because there would literally be no argument you could make against it.
this just sounds like a skill issue on your part, i’m sorry–this is not an issue if you have a postmodernist understanding of gender, which most trans people (myself included) subscribe to.
at the end of the day when you drill down? there really is not a material difference between the “real” and “fake” genders–gender is entirely socially constructed, and the designations of “male” and “female” that most people fall into are as arbitrary as any xenogender (real or frivolously created by right-wingers). you only “lose” by entertaining frivolous designations if your understanding of gender is already so narrow that you can’t conceptually accommodate anything beyond a handful of stock gender identities to begin with.
The reason xenogenders and transgender genders are not the same is because one is based on our dimorphic sexual physicality, and the other is based on metaphysical invention.
So you’re not only transmedicalist, but somehow also a gender essentialist?
This is gatekeeping via transmedicalist talking points.
Dysphoria is not central to the trans experience. It’s central to some trans experiences.
Even if your belief that dysphoria has biological/medical routes were true, that still doesn’t mean that it’s the only way to be trans.
Whatever else it is, gender is also a social construct, and our relationships with social constructs shape who we are in very real ways.
And hell to take your gatekeeping ever further, even if you’re right, and some trans folk can “stop being trans” as a result of their social environment or whatever, they’re still trans until they’re not.
This is about the time that people (typically) stop the conversation and try to get you banned by calling you truscum and transphobic.
some trans folk can “stop being trans” as a result of their social environment or whatever
This is what evangelicals and terfs claim. But it’s not true. It’s why you cannot convert a trans person, or a gay person from what they are. It’s why the medical community has acknowledged that the best treatment is affirming care. If you believe being trans is a social issue you’re putting trans people into a position to lose their access to medical care.
You took this quote completely out of context and inverted the intended meaning to suit your argument. The statement Ada made was
And hell to take your gatekeeping ever further, even if you’re right, and some trans folk can “stop being trans” as a result of their social environment or whatever, they’re still trans until they’re not.
Yes, it is. You are saying that anyone without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria isn’t trans. You do not get to make that kind of statement.
You are the one erasing others’ experiences
You are the one arguing against trans people’s legitimacy
No one here is saying being trans isn’t real. But *you are when you say that it’s only valid if you have dysphoria.
You also have to think this through: if you believe that you can only really be trans if you have a medical diagnosis, then you have created vast swathes of gatekeepers for being trans: doctors, insurance companies, politicians, governments at every level. In our bigoted, cisheteronormative society, if we say you can only be trans with a diagnosis, and that society doesn’t want trans people to exist, then they can just stop diagnosing people. Doctors can refuse, and decide instead that you’re depressed, bipolar, BPD, etc. instead, and that anyone who thinks they’re trans is just “mentally ill.” Governments can pass laws preventing state run insurances (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, etc.) from paying for anything related to dysphoria. They can also pass laws saying private insurances either don’t have to cover it, or that they can’t. I know for a fact this is already happening because I live in Florida. I’m watching this scenario happen right in front of me. You’re taking away the ability for a person to know their own mind and their own body, and their right and ability to understand their own identity, and handing that judgement over to people with a vested interest in denying it.
And I can see why you’d think this would be a path to walk: if we say “a medical diagnosis means we’re objectively, scientifically trans, then the bigots can’t deny it”, but that’s not how things work. That’s just pandering to the oppressors. You will never appease them.
No one is saying that you can just call anyone trans you want, like crossdressers, drag queens, or “attack helicopters” (I honestly can’t believe you even threw that one around). Only the bigots do that.
No one is saying your experience isn’t valid. It’s exactly the opposite. If you feel dysphoria is central to your experience, that’s fine! You’re just as trans as the next trans person, just as valid. But that’s your experience. You don’t get to generalize your experience and then decide that’s the yardstick by which everyone else must be measured.
I think the problem comes when it’s framed as “you can only be trans if you have a diagnosis” as opposed to “you’re trans whether you have a diagnosis or any kind of medical experience with it or not.” One can say “it took a doctor diagnosing me with dysphoria before I could accept I was trans, but I understand that this is just my experience, and I know others have their own experience” and that’s totally fine.
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I don’t agree. It’s ok to say “dysphoria is central to my trans experience, though I understand this isn’t universal.” That doesn’t gatekeep anyone. In fact it’s the opposite. But it’s not ok to tell others that dysphoria or medical treatment is required to be trans.
Sure, in many locations, having a diagnosis is required before doctors will allow you to even begin HRT or consider having surgeries if you want them. But that’s just a symptom of a broken medical system that enforces cisheteronormativity, and prevents self-ID and informed consent. It’s not what actually defines what being trans is all about. It’s just a hoop people are forced to jump through.
There’s a difference between having honest and good-faith discussions about the role dysphoria, surgery and HRT play in the overall trans experience, and making broad definitive statements. That’s what actually erases others’ experiences.
deleted by creator
You are collapsing too many ideas into one here.
There are people who through some combination of nature and nurture find themselves wanting to be treated in a way which aligns much closer to how one gender gets treated in a particular society. They may choose to transition to get this treatment despite having no dysphoria about themselves or their body. Being upset about how someone treats you is not necessarily dysphoria. There are also individuals who don’t experience their gender negatively but experience another gender more positively. They do not have dysphoria yet may choose to transition to maximize their happiness. Do not erase these individuals.
Arguing that dysphoria is central to the trans experience is a trans medicalist (truscum) viewpoint and exclusionary rhetoric isn’t nice and therefore isn’t allowed around here.
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You’re literally erasing me, lol. I’m agender and trans. I did not start transitioning because of gender dysphoria. I don’t even experience gender dysphoria. If you don’t think I have the right experience to identify as trans, that’s on you my friend, but I’m not going to change my labels because you don’t think that I exist. I’m sorry if you feel that my existence jeopardizes your existence or invalidates it in any way, because there are many compatible world views in which it does not.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter either way - I only intervened here because you got reported for not being nice. So please, stop it.
deleted by creator
Are you sure it’s because of that particular philosophy, and not of some people’s philosophy stemming from some “sacred” book, or a desire to control the sexuality of others?
At no point am I arguing that it is a made up social construct. I’m just letting you know about my existence. If my existence threatens you so much that you must throw me into a box that is not you, then go ahead and do so. I’m not out here shouting at the world about how people like me exist, I’m merely replying to your attempt to erase me. There are compatible world views which don’t erase me - which many other people have pointed out here.
I’m sorry that your country is taking away your right to life saving medical care. The same thing is happening in my country. I’d rather spend my time and energy on preserving access to medical care for everyone than fighting with folks online. Best of luck, I hope things improve for you. 💜
this just sounds like a skill issue on your part, i’m sorry–this is not an issue if you have a postmodernist understanding of gender, which most trans people (myself included) subscribe to.
at the end of the day when you drill down? there really is not a material difference between the “real” and “fake” genders–gender is entirely socially constructed, and the designations of “male” and “female” that most people fall into are as arbitrary as any xenogender (real or frivolously created by right-wingers). you only “lose” by entertaining frivolous designations if your understanding of gender is already so narrow that you can’t conceptually accommodate anything beyond a handful of stock gender identities to begin with.
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So you’re not only transmedicalist, but somehow also a gender essentialist?
This is gatekeeping via transmedicalist talking points.
Dysphoria is not central to the trans experience. It’s central to some trans experiences.
Even if your belief that dysphoria has biological/medical routes were true, that still doesn’t mean that it’s the only way to be trans.
Whatever else it is, gender is also a social construct, and our relationships with social constructs shape who we are in very real ways.
And hell to take your gatekeeping ever further, even if you’re right, and some trans folk can “stop being trans” as a result of their social environment or whatever, they’re still trans until they’re not.
Yep, for good reason
deleted by creator
You took this quote completely out of context and inverted the intended meaning to suit your argument. The statement Ada made was
Yes, it is. You are saying that anyone without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria isn’t trans. You do not get to make that kind of statement.
You are the one erasing others’ experiences
You are the one arguing against trans people’s legitimacy
No one here is saying being trans isn’t real. But *you are when you say that it’s only valid if you have dysphoria.
You also have to think this through: if you believe that you can only really be trans if you have a medical diagnosis, then you have created vast swathes of gatekeepers for being trans: doctors, insurance companies, politicians, governments at every level. In our bigoted, cisheteronormative society, if we say you can only be trans with a diagnosis, and that society doesn’t want trans people to exist, then they can just stop diagnosing people. Doctors can refuse, and decide instead that you’re depressed, bipolar, BPD, etc. instead, and that anyone who thinks they’re trans is just “mentally ill.” Governments can pass laws preventing state run insurances (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, etc.) from paying for anything related to dysphoria. They can also pass laws saying private insurances either don’t have to cover it, or that they can’t. I know for a fact this is already happening because I live in Florida. I’m watching this scenario happen right in front of me. You’re taking away the ability for a person to know their own mind and their own body, and their right and ability to understand their own identity, and handing that judgement over to people with a vested interest in denying it.
And I can see why you’d think this would be a path to walk: if we say “a medical diagnosis means we’re objectively, scientifically trans, then the bigots can’t deny it”, but that’s not how things work. That’s just pandering to the oppressors. You will never appease them.
No one is saying that you can just call anyone trans you want, like crossdressers, drag queens, or “attack helicopters” (I honestly can’t believe you even threw that one around). Only the bigots do that.
No one is saying your experience isn’t valid. It’s exactly the opposite. If you feel dysphoria is central to your experience, that’s fine! You’re just as trans as the next trans person, just as valid. But that’s your experience. You don’t get to generalize your experience and then decide that’s the yardstick by which everyone else must be measured.