Why add a symbol that is almost solely used by totalitarian governments?
The hammer and sickle remains commonplace in self-declared socialist states, such as China, Cuba, North Korea, Laos, and Vietnam, but also some former Soviet republics following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, such as Belarus and Russia.
Are there any countries that use the symbol that are actually nice places to live with good governments?
Angola has made a conscious decision to stick to this symbol as if transitions to a liberal democracy and stable economy. There were some efforts to change the flag recently because as you said it’s often associated with totalitarian regimes. But those efforts failed because to Angolans it symbolizes the Angolan triumph over the colonial oppression of Portugal and resistance to apartheid South African invasion.
It could change in the future, Angola is still moving towards “good government” and “nice place to live” as you said. But for now it remains their national flag.
Interesting. That being said I don’t understand the lemmygrad peoples desire for the Hammer and sickle as a symbol. Like almost nothing good has come from it. Even in Angola it seems to be viewed as a somewhat tarnished period in their history.
I get what you mean, I’m helping to add nuance to the discussion. Also a bunch of white people coming in and telling Angolans what symbols they can and can’t use to represent their triumph over colonialism and apartheid isn’t a great look either.
Meaning is also contextual - different cultures put different meaning in symbols. To represent global ideas we need some consensus.
Baltic neo-pagans were rigtfully culturally suppressed from using swastika as “symbol of Sun”. Hammer and sickle also signifies millions of deaths and decades of repressioms. It is even forbidden in some post soviet countries along with swastika. Lets find something less damaging to represent marxist ideas.
@Humana
I think the only system to believe in here is sensitivity to feelings and histories of others. If you don’t mind triggering literally millions of people whose families were hurt by soviets, it is your choice.
And wouldn’t you be against public display of swastikas if they are displayed by “neopagans” and supposedly symbolize Sun?
Do you ban them from museums? Textbooks? Documentaries? No because they are in an appropriate context. I would never wear or display a swastika and I feel disgusted to see one displayed by anyone with pride. Context and motive matter…
I can’t tell if you’re being ignorant or disingenuous. The Ⓐ should be a clue as to my opinion on government in general, no? As for ☭ - check the first sentence of the article you linked. Or the description written under it, for what I meant to invoke.
I am no USSR apologist. I just consider that symbol useful as a marker for worker solidarity.
I understand what it means, and I support what it is trying to do in theory. The problem is there has never been a government, to my knowledge, that has embraced the ideology that has not turned to corruption/totalitarianism. In these countries, the proletariat are deprived of their rights and fare far worse. That is what the hammer and sickle represents.
I’m happy to change my mind if an example can prove otherwise, but to my knowledge the most effective form of government is that of a social democracy, which is represented by a red rose.
The hammer and sickle (Unicode: U+262D ☭ ) is a communist symbol representing proletarian solidarity between agricultural and industrial workers.
This sentence is the entire and only reason I used that symbol. You have zero reason to continue to ask me for “good governments using this symbol”. It is not a symbol of government. Communism is stateless, ergo no government. Just like anarchism.
The swastika is thus understood to be a symbol of auspiciousness and good fortune
Symbols can have meanings that are different than what they turn into. Hammer and sickle is almost unanimously considered to be a symbol of Stalin USSR totalitarian communism where millions perished.
Why add a symbol that is almost solely used by totalitarian governments?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_and_sickle
Are there any countries that use the symbol that are actually nice places to live with good governments?
Angola
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angola#Angolan_Civil_War
Yes I’m aware of the history of Angola.
You asked
Angola has made a conscious decision to stick to this symbol as if transitions to a liberal democracy and stable economy. There were some efforts to change the flag recently because as you said it’s often associated with totalitarian regimes. But those efforts failed because to Angolans it symbolizes the Angolan triumph over the colonial oppression of Portugal and resistance to apartheid South African invasion.
It could change in the future, Angola is still moving towards “good government” and “nice place to live” as you said. But for now it remains their national flag.
Interesting. That being said I don’t understand the lemmygrad peoples desire for the Hammer and sickle as a symbol. Like almost nothing good has come from it. Even in Angola it seems to be viewed as a somewhat tarnished period in their history.
I get what you mean, I’m helping to add nuance to the discussion. Also a bunch of white people coming in and telling Angolans what symbols they can and can’t use to represent their triumph over colonialism and apartheid isn’t a great look either.
@laverabe
Meaning is also contextual - different cultures put different meaning in symbols. To represent global ideas we need some consensus.
Baltic neo-pagans were rigtfully culturally suppressed from using swastika as “symbol of Sun”. Hammer and sickle also signifies millions of deaths and decades of repressioms. It is even forbidden in some post soviet countries along with swastika. Lets find something less damaging to represent marxist ideas.
@Humana
I don’t believe in these sweeping absolutes. Context and motive are important parts of any equation of what’s “acceptable”.
@Humana
I think the only system to believe in here is sensitivity to feelings and histories of others. If you don’t mind triggering literally millions of people whose families were hurt by soviets, it is your choice.
And wouldn’t you be against public display of swastikas if they are displayed by “neopagans” and supposedly symbolize Sun?
Do you ban them from museums? Textbooks? Documentaries? No because they are in an appropriate context. I would never wear or display a swastika and I feel disgusted to see one displayed by anyone with pride. Context and motive matter…
I can’t tell if you’re being ignorant or disingenuous. The Ⓐ should be a clue as to my opinion on government in general, no? As for ☭ - check the first sentence of the article you linked. Or the description written under it, for what I meant to invoke.
I am no USSR apologist. I just consider that symbol useful as a marker for worker solidarity.
I understand what it means, and I support what it is trying to do in theory. The problem is there has never been a government, to my knowledge, that has embraced the ideology that has not turned to corruption/totalitarianism. In these countries, the proletariat are deprived of their rights and fare far worse. That is what the hammer and sickle represents.
I’m happy to change my mind if an example can prove otherwise, but to my knowledge the most effective form of government is that of a social democracy, which is represented by a red rose.
I’m not talking about any governments.
Like I already told you:
This sentence is the entire and only reason I used that symbol. You have zero reason to continue to ask me for “good governments using this symbol”. It is not a symbol of government. Communism is stateless, ergo no government. Just like anarchism.
You’re trolling. Fuck off.
Nice civility
Symbols can have meanings that are different than what they turn into. Hammer and sickle is almost unanimously considered to be a symbol of Stalin USSR totalitarian communism where millions perished.
The Hindu one is, yes.
Not denying that.
Only to people ignorant of what communism actually means.