So, do we want the Biden administration to continue to work towards supporting Palestine, or do we want them to revert back to a hard defense of Israel and ramp up arms production?
Lemmy users are fucking braindead when it comes to building support for unified movements in America, and it shows time and time again.
This might be news for yall, but a nation of people does not change course overnight.
Yall do realize you are supposed to reward positive actions to encourage more of them right? If you punish people for doing the right thing the same way you punish them for doing wrong, you are just fucking up your own message.
I want to preface this with I don’t actively subscribe to this way of thinking, I just want to tell you how the US leadership think:
The main reason the US supports Israel is so they have a western friendly power in the region to counter countries like Iran or Egypt which were historically soviet aligned and now have some awful dictatorial and religiously extreme governments. If they stopped supporting Israel and, say, Iran invaded, somehow wins and puts the whole of that area under there extremist rule, would that be preferable to you?
It’s not preferrable because it is hypothetical, when in reality through their support over the years they could have stopped a lot of the horrible horrible shit (known as war crimes for other regimes) but they did not.
There is a lot of space from war profiteering and genocide support to Iran land grabbing.
They couod have more actively sought a two party state and not allowed everything else Israel did.
Do you know they didn’t? Like do you think it’s possible the US has been negotiating in the background to prevent something worse from happening?
Because personally I fully believe Israel would have leveled gaza decades ago to turn into new settlements if they didn’t have to worry about losing the support of the US. So I think pretty much the only reason they havnt is because of behind the scenes negotiating of the US.
Yes I do think they didnt because they have been selling them arms for decades, sharing information to the point where israel is now probably more capable and can now do what they want.
The current president of America is, or at least was, defending their actions as defensive and calling for unconditional support as he is a “zionist”. Im not buying for a second they had anyone else’s interest at heart.
But what do you think would actually happen, if Biden just kinda snapped, and went fully against Israel, said they were commiting genocide, said the US should stop supporting them etc. Etc. What do you think would actually realistically come from that?
We know what would happen, every Muslim aligned country would wipe out Isreal and then people who are doing the genocide Joe shit would be bitching that biden isn’t helping israelis and how awful it is that innocent israeli children are dead. That’s what would happen if we actually stopped supporting Isreal, now if Joe biden said stop and said stop support the united states would continue to sell weapons and congress would continue to sell weapons because at the end of the day biden isn’t the president of Israel and global politics isn’t some easy thing to cram into a single issue
How about not shipping arms to Israel with one hand and sending aid to Palestine with the other. Whoever has money in both sides is making bank off of this. If the US wants to be world police then maybe don’t let things go this far before changing stance on the matter. It took a hell of a lot of killing before the US government started to condemn Israel.
I have a 100 dollar auto donation to Trump’s campaign set up. My family was mad at me for that, so I also set up a 10 dollar donation to Biden. That didn’t seem to get them off my back, so in a few weeks I’m going to up my donation to Biden to 30 dollars. For some reason my family is still mad and wants me to stop donating to Trump. Can’t they just celebrate how awesome my donation to Biden is? AITA?
Well when the individual is sidestepping congress to give more bombs to drop on children and then turning around and wishing to be celebrated for building a port for aid to those children he just helped bomb it sorta feels like maybe he shouldn’t be applauded.
Also im sure this port will only be used for aid and never be used as a navy base of any kind and will never house american military and be used as an excuse to cause more bombings in the region or anything of the sort
Literally the same shitty analogy. Even when explained why this style of analogy is bad, yall still try to reduce the government with 2 centuries of history down to the actions of a single man.
It’s like your trying to make this more complicated to somehow shift Bidens culpability away. We have three branches of government , the judiciary isn’t sending bombs for Isreal to drop on kids, the legislature is too incapable of doing anything at all, so that leaves us with the executive branch that gets to decide whether to send bombs to Isreal and what conditions to put on them. Currently, the executive branch is headed by Joseph R. Biden, and he makes those calls. Just like it was his decision to set up a temporary port for aid. What does 200 years of history have to do with anything? Is George Washington approving arms sales? Did Biden want to condition weapons transfers on Isreal adhering to humanitarian law, but the ghost of Richard Nixon wouldn’t let him?
The analogy, in my opinion, works to illustrate the point that just because you did one good thing, that doesn’t absolve you of responsibility for the much larger bad thing you are still doing. Biden getting aid in is good, I’m glad and support it and yada yada. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to forget that at the same time he is sending bombs (over 50% dropped on Gaza were unguided!) without any conditions on how Isreal uses them.
What bodies are relevant here? Congress has famously not approved aid for Isreal, so it’s not them. Joseph R. Biden, commander in chief of the armed forces pursuant to Article 2, Section 2 of the US Constitution has unilateral authority to approve, disapprove, or condition arms sales to Isreal. I don’t know what you think is constraining him.
Unless you are referring to AIPAC, in which I take your point.
You haven’t even scratched the topic of military aid provided by the series of bodies of government in the USA who have approved aid for Israel over the course of decades.
I assume you left the majority of funding out because it hurts your point.
So, do we want the Biden administration to continue to work towards supporting Palestine, or do we want them to revert back to a hard defense of Israel and ramp up arms production?
Lemmy users are fucking braindead when it comes to building support for unified movements in America, and it shows time and time again.
This might be news for yall, but a nation of people does not change course overnight.
Yall do realize you are supposed to reward positive actions to encourage more of them right? If you punish people for doing the right thing the same way you punish them for doing wrong, you are just fucking up your own message.
Personally I want America to fuck right off and stop propping up regimes that suit their needs to the detriment of humankind the world over.
That’s not very Cash-Money of you…
I want to preface this with I don’t actively subscribe to this way of thinking, I just want to tell you how the US leadership think:
The main reason the US supports Israel is so they have a western friendly power in the region to counter countries like Iran or Egypt which were historically soviet aligned and now have some awful dictatorial and religiously extreme governments. If they stopped supporting Israel and, say, Iran invaded, somehow wins and puts the whole of that area under there extremist rule, would that be preferable to you?
It’s not preferrable because it is hypothetical, when in reality through their support over the years they could have stopped a lot of the horrible horrible shit (known as war crimes for other regimes) but they did not.
There is a lot of space from war profiteering and genocide support to Iran land grabbing.
They couod have more actively sought a two party state and not allowed everything else Israel did.
Do you know they didn’t? Like do you think it’s possible the US has been negotiating in the background to prevent something worse from happening?
Because personally I fully believe Israel would have leveled gaza decades ago to turn into new settlements if they didn’t have to worry about losing the support of the US. So I think pretty much the only reason they havnt is because of behind the scenes negotiating of the US.
Yes I do think they didnt because they have been selling them arms for decades, sharing information to the point where israel is now probably more capable and can now do what they want.
The current president of America is, or at least was, defending their actions as defensive and calling for unconditional support as he is a “zionist”. Im not buying for a second they had anyone else’s interest at heart.
Okay, so a bit tangential to out main point.
But what do you think would actually happen, if Biden just kinda snapped, and went fully against Israel, said they were commiting genocide, said the US should stop supporting them etc. Etc. What do you think would actually realistically come from that?
We know what would happen, every Muslim aligned country would wipe out Isreal and then people who are doing the genocide Joe shit would be bitching that biden isn’t helping israelis and how awful it is that innocent israeli children are dead. That’s what would happen if we actually stopped supporting Isreal, now if Joe biden said stop and said stop support the united states would continue to sell weapons and congress would continue to sell weapons because at the end of the day biden isn’t the president of Israel and global politics isn’t some easy thing to cram into a single issue
Ypu mean ypu want to continue bitching about nonsense instead of pursue solutions.
Yes nonsense is typically the word used for supporting a genocide.
Anything else you want to trivilise? Because I cant really think of worse.
I want the Biden administration to stop selling them weapons and going to bat for them at the UN.
please tell me what voting for a non-binding ceasefire at the un is going to do unless you’re going to start physically using force against israel?
It tells the world quiet clearly that you don’t side with a genocidal regime for one.
The current approach has all but destroyed any moral high ground the US, UK and other western countries had around human rights.
i don’t like the israeli strategy but calling everything “genocide” does nothing to help the situation.
we have treaties for a reason and that still doesn’t say anything about what voting for a non-binding ceasefire will do for the region.
I’m not calling everything genocide. I’m calling the genocide that Netanyahu is perpetrating right now in Gaza a genocide.
Pretending it’s anything less tells me what you are.
Please tell me what continuing to block it will accomplish, other than signaling support for Netanyahu’s genocide?
I want anyone engaged in war crimes to face consequences for their actions tbh.
Cool, I want a billion dollars and a cure for cancer. Lmk when the magical sky daddy starts granting wishes.
What real path to this outcome do you see? What’s step 1?
How do you plan on charging Putin?
Step one tear it all down. Let me know when you get that far.
So you don’t really want these things. You want a do nothing point to bitch about.
What? No I definitely want humanity to fail lol.
Nuanced voices are rarely the loudest
How about not shipping arms to Israel with one hand and sending aid to Palestine with the other. Whoever has money in both sides is making bank off of this. If the US wants to be world police then maybe don’t let things go this far before changing stance on the matter. It took a hell of a lot of killing before the US government started to condemn Israel.
and then what happens when hamas continues to get arms and continues to attack the israeli people?
Sorry but are you implying Biden is going to make America money by selling weapons to Israel, and also make money by sending aid to Gaza?
I have a 100 dollar auto donation to Trump’s campaign set up. My family was mad at me for that, so I also set up a 10 dollar donation to Biden. That didn’t seem to get them off my back, so in a few weeks I’m going to up my donation to Biden to 30 dollars. For some reason my family is still mad and wants me to stop donating to Trump. Can’t they just celebrate how awesome my donation to Biden is? AITA?
I didn’t realize the United States government was a dictatorship run by an individual.
Shitty analogy that misses the entire point of what I said to make a point that doesn’t apply to the situation.
Well when the individual is sidestepping congress to give more bombs to drop on children and then turning around and wishing to be celebrated for building a port for aid to those children he just helped bomb it sorta feels like maybe he shouldn’t be applauded.
Also im sure this port will only be used for aid and never be used as a navy base of any kind and will never house american military and be used as an excuse to cause more bombings in the region or anything of the sort
Literally the same shitty analogy. Even when explained why this style of analogy is bad, yall still try to reduce the government with 2 centuries of history down to the actions of a single man.
It’s like your trying to make this more complicated to somehow shift Bidens culpability away. We have three branches of government , the judiciary isn’t sending bombs for Isreal to drop on kids, the legislature is too incapable of doing anything at all, so that leaves us with the executive branch that gets to decide whether to send bombs to Isreal and what conditions to put on them. Currently, the executive branch is headed by Joseph R. Biden, and he makes those calls. Just like it was his decision to set up a temporary port for aid. What does 200 years of history have to do with anything? Is George Washington approving arms sales? Did Biden want to condition weapons transfers on Isreal adhering to humanitarian law, but the ghost of Richard Nixon wouldn’t let him?
The analogy, in my opinion, works to illustrate the point that just because you did one good thing, that doesn’t absolve you of responsibility for the much larger bad thing you are still doing. Biden getting aid in is good, I’m glad and support it and yada yada. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to forget that at the same time he is sending bombs (over 50% dropped on Gaza were unguided!) without any conditions on how Isreal uses them.
Yes. I’m the individual who made government a series of bodies and functions more complex than the operations of an individual.
That was me.
What bodies are relevant here? Congress has famously not approved aid for Isreal, so it’s not them. Joseph R. Biden, commander in chief of the armed forces pursuant to Article 2, Section 2 of the US Constitution has unilateral authority to approve, disapprove, or condition arms sales to Isreal. I don’t know what you think is constraining him.
Unless you are referring to AIPAC, in which I take your point.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–United_States_military_relations
You haven’t even scratched the topic of military aid provided by the series of bodies of government in the USA who have approved aid for Israel over the course of decades.
I assume you left the majority of funding out because it hurts your point.
What is up with lemmy and playing ‘would you rather’?