Israeli citizens are subjected to daily propaganda (e.g. “there are no civilians in Gaza”, “Hamas is ISIS”, “Hamas wants to murder all jews”, etc.) to legitimize their fascistic policies.
There are a lot of parallels to the US short/y after 9/11.
It’s part of Israel’s propaganda to make this about religion to invoke irrational “War on Terror” sentiments in people who haven’t looked into it that deeply.
In reality, they’re dehumanizing and targeting all Palestinian Arabs, including Christians. Hence the shooting up and bombing of churches along with everything else.
Some of them are Kahanists but I don’t think religion figures into their motives as a wider group except for scapegoating purposes.
It amazes me officials can speak like this, yet there are also the widespread reports of organ theft (esp. skin and corneas removed from bodies). Even some reports of blond babies being kidnapped from their families because they’re assumed not to be Arab. Where is the cognitive dissonance?
5% of the population is psychopathic. Folks forget this stat. They also forget that moral competence exists on a spectrum, so that even regular people are capable of great evil, especially in service to their religion.
75 years of being attacked leads to some fucked up thinking. Most Israelis, like most Palestinians know people who have been victims of violence repeatedly. Their mindsets aren’t the same as those in the West with the safety and security provided by border stability. Which is why it’s so interesting seeing the Western ideals being pushed on this conflict. Those ravers should be jailed though, they’re contradicting the ICJ order. Whether it’s the Israeli government or not, the order was to enable the provision of aid and that means clearing obstacles.
There’s no brainwashing needed to be able to read a history book at every turn. It’s been the Arabs who have attacked and the Israelis who have defended.
And just like we saw in October Palestinians struck out and now they’re crying because they’re losing yet another war they start. It’s an age-old tactic for Arabs to use human suffering in order to garner sympathy from the West, and it works for good reason. Nothing has changed since it was pointed out that peace will not come until Arabs love their children as much as they hate Jews and nothing will change until they stop raising martyrs and start deradicalizing their people. Defunding UNRWA is a good first step.
The gish gallop doesn’t change the fact that the Arab Nations instigated and started every war since the inception of Israel. Half of those posts affirm Arab aggression as well.
Also notably missing from the list is the near million Jews ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries surrounding Israel in the 40s. For all the talk of the Nakba, there were more Jews displaced than Arabs. Yet one group accepted reality and built a nation. The other is still fighting a war they lost 3 generations ago.
I’ve read most of what you’ve posted here in my university education. More than half of that is irrelevant. Of course non israelis don’t have rights in Israel. Israeli Arabs do though. Half of your posts affirm Arab aggression too.
Plenty of back and forth, are you denying the fact that the Arab Nations instigated and were the aggressors in each of the wars started since the inception of Israel?
Somehow, I’m not convinced you read any of the links. Did you know over 250 thousand Palestinians were forcibly displaced before Israel declared independence?
There are more than 50 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel. directly or indirectly, based solely on their ethnicity, rendering them second or third class citizens in their own homeland.
By August 1937, “transfer” was a major subject of discussion at the Twentieth Zionist Congress in Zurich, Switzerland. Alluding to the systematic dispossession of Palestinian peasants (fellahin) that Zionist organizations had been engaged in for years, David Ben-Gurion, who would become Israel’s first prime minister in 1948, stated: “You are no doubt aware of the [Jewish National Fund’s] activity in this respect. Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out. In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the Arab fellahin.” He concluded: “Jewish power [in Palestine], which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out this transfer on a large scale.”
By the time the state of Israel was declared on May 14, 1948, more than 200 Palestinian villages had already been emptied as people fled in fear or were forcibly expelled by Zionist forces, and approximately 175,000 Palestinians had been made refugees. By 1949, at least 750,000 Palestinians had been made refugees, losing their land, homes and other belongings in what became known as the “Nakba” (“catastrophe”).
Between 1948 (when Israel declared independence) and 1966, Palestinian citizens of Israel were subject to military rule. After 1966, martial law was lifted but to this day they continue to suffer from widespread, systematic and institutionalized discrimination affecting everything from land ownership and employment opportunities to family reunification rights. Today, there are approximately 1.9 million (Updated December 2019) Palestinian citizens of Israel, comprising about 21% of Israel’s population.
The documents describe detailed preparations that were made in the military in the years before 1967, with the intention of organizing in advance the control of territories that the defense establishment assessed – with high certainty – would be conquered in the next war. A perusal of the information indicates that the takeover and retention of these areas – the West Bank from Jordan, the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza Strip from Egypt, and the Golan Heights from Syria – were not a by-product of the fighting, but the manifestation of a strategic approach and prior preparations.
Following the 1967 war, martial law over the Palestinian population as well as the Jordanian, Syrian, and Egyptian populations in these areas was put in place. In 1993, the Oslo I agreements facilitated limited self-rule for Palestinians under the Palestinian National Authority. Officially, only parts of Area C in the West Bank are under martial law.
The first intifada erupted 25 years ago. What started as local demonstrations snowballed into a sweeping popular uprising that did not die down until the convening of the Madrid peace conference at the end of 1991. The intifada reinvigorated the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was at a low ebb in its history after its forced evacuation from Lebanon and the concomitant loss of the military and political option. More important, the intifada shifted the focal point of the Palestinian national struggle from the “outside” to the “inside.”
The Second Intifada, was a major uprising by Palestinians against the Israeli occupation, characterized by a period of heightened violence in the Palestinian territories and Israel between 2000 and 2005. The general triggers for the unrest are speculated to have been centered on the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit, which was expected to reach a final agreement in July 2000. An uptick in violent incidents started in September 2000, after Israeli politician Ariel Sharon made a provocative visit to the Al-Aqsa compound, which is situated atop the Temple Mount in East Jerusalem; the visit itself was peaceful, but, as anticipated, sparked protests and riots that Israeli police put down with rubber bullets, live ammunition, and tear gas. Within the first few days of the uprising, the IDF had fired one million rounds of ammunition.
The “great march” entailed weekly demonstrations by Palestinians near the fence that since 1996 has separated Gaza and Israel (along the Green Line traced by the armistice agreements of 1949), demanding that the blockade imposed on Gaza be lifted and the return of Palestinian refugees. Prior to the first demonstration, Israeli forces reinforced their positions at the fence with additional troops, including more than 100 sharpshooters. They permitted snipers to shoot at the legs of “main inciters” as a means to prevent a demonstrating crowd from crossing the separation fence.
Wow, the other guy already addressed the history books part but I wanted to stop for a second and focus on
It’s an age-old tactic for Arabs to […]
Wonder how people would take it if we were addressing the other party in this conflict, and someone like you would throw in a gross generalisation, pointing out that it goes back a long time.
LoL, like gross generalizing hasn’t warped the word Zionist into the updated version of dirty Jew.
The history remains the same, the surrounding Arab Nations have been attacking Israel since it’s inception. they refuse to acknowledge Israel and they continue to feed bodies into martyrdom in the name of their goal of a pan arabian caliphate. The wild thing is they don’t even deny it, but the West refuses to accept their own words.
I can give multiple examples of group members who disagree with elements of their group so substantively, they split off and form new groups. Schisms are normal reactions to outside/inside actors co-opting or directing a group, Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, Protestants and Catholics, America and the Commonwealth…
If you’re upset that something is being done by a group you’re a part of, who openly declares to be working towards a goal that is unpopular outside the group, leave the group. There are plenty of Jews and Jewish groups that reject revisionist Zionism and/or Kahanism, the notion of Jewishness is not owned by a political party nor ideology. Claiming that criticism of the movement is a dog whistle, becomes unconvincing and is disingenuous to the reader
So its okay for you to do it? Must be confusing to be you mate.
I won’t even touch the second part, someone posted a few links before, since you keep mentioning ‘history’ it might be time to start reading about it instead if just making things up
Most of those links supported the position that Arabs are the aggressors FFS. Did you even read them?
I’m very familiar with the history of this region, and I’m very positive that it was not the Israelis who started the wars they’ve suffered from.
It’s actually perfectly fine for Israel to defend itself, that much was made clear in the ICJ ruling. What the ruling didn’t establish though is that there’s a genocide happening.
The problem with your hypothesis is that all of us can read a history book, and yet few would agree with the majority of Israeli citizens that murdering children is justified.
Again, if someone were persecuted, why would that make him want to murder random children? It makes no logical sense. The only explanation is brainwashing and religious zealotry.
Being Muslim is definitely not a race; not so sure about the Arab part.
Race is a social construct after all. Humans are all one specie of Animal. What we see are just slight genetical variation from one ethnicity/culture to another.
You mean when King David granted lands to the tribes?
Or more recently when the British mandate was lifted, and Jordan and Israel were granted nation status by the UN? Do you know how India and Pakistan was founded?
I think they may be viewing it as more of an act of defiance and retribution for the rave hamas murdered all those innocent people at. If you view it as an isolated thing happening during a “war” then it really makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense. It’s not constructive, effective or helping to move towards any kind of resolution of this conflict, but on a personal level, it does make sense.
I think, as far as regular people go, at this stage both sides in the conflict are primarily motivated by revenge. We can dress it all up with fancy words of occupation, injustice, national self defense or whatever your chosen flavor of ideology is in this conflict. But for regular everyday people in the region the primary reason why they want to see the other regular people die is revenge.
@chillhelm I guess. There are probably plenty of ordinary humans who empathise with other civilians there too, it’s just we don’t hear so much about those.
I knew a woman whose husband was held prisoner by the Axis during WWII Her response was to go every weekend to a POW camp of “enemy” soldiers and bring them food, chocolate etc, since they were in the same situation as her husband. That, is also part of human nature, just not the side the war monger$ like to encourage.
That is really the tragedy about the whole thing. A small warmongering minority on both sides pulls in people who really just want to live in peace and safety and have enough to eat, a roof over their head,… who are likely the vast majority on both sides.
Yeah I think so. We get told it’s about “religion” but it’s really about geopolitical interests and a transnational military industrial complex that constantly stir this stuff up and exploit religious tensions.
It is about religion in the sense that religion makes it much easier for a small number of malicious people to control a large number of people and make them do things against their own interest.
These protests were started by families of hostages who are still in Gaza. They don’t want any supplies into Gaza until all hostages are released, because they fear that most of the aid will be stolen by Hamas anyway and used to prolong the war.
Before you scoff at the source, there’s video evidence included in the article that is impossible to deny.
It should be pretty obvious that food, medical supplies and fuel are needed by fighters as well and in much larger quantities per person.
This is a difficult problem to solve. Personally, I would still send supplies though, hoping that at least some of them reach civilians who need them, but I can understand the frustration of people who are personally affected by this war. This aid unfortunately does have a not just theoretical chance of prolonging the conflict, enabling the besieged terrorist organization to hold out for longer, which in turn means more suffering not just for hostages and Israelis who only just recently have seen a reduction in rocket attacks, but also for Palestinian civilians, who are caught between a rock (IDF) and a hard place (Hamas) for as long as the fighting continues.
Here’s the moral conundrum: Let’s say we could determine with near certainty that halting aid would shorten the war, even if it resulted in a temporary increase in human suffering due to increased shortages. If the total amount of human suffering would be lower as a result, due to the war being over sooner, would it be the right moral choice, even if people end up suffering more for a brief amount of time? Think of it as a variation of the trolley problem.
Based on what surviving hostages have reported and going by the fact that medication meant for them never reached them, not much.
For as much of a bastard as Netanyahu is, you can’t fight a modern war effectively without bombs (or else you get stagnation like in Ukraine, where air defenses on both sides make use of bombers difficult to impossible) and the hostages wouldn’t be in danger of getting bombed in the first place if Hamas hadn’t abducted them from their homes and started this war.
Intent matters. The actual death toll (which we don’t actually have for Gaza - we only have Hamas reporting figures, which includes obvious lies like that hospital parking lot incident that I’m sure you remember) is actually irrelevant in assessing whether or not something is a genocide. Think about this for a second: Would an army hell-bent on committing genocide roof-knock, drop leaflets, send warnings by telephone, messenger, social media and hacked TV stations? Why bother, why give warning to an enemy (any time you warn civilians, Hamas fighters will also be able to flee or hide) if the actual goal, like you are claiming, is eradication?
Before you’re saying that this is just a smoke screen: The Israeli government clearly doesn’t care about outside appearances, as they have stated multiple times, and would bring this war to its conclusion no matter what the world is saying, as they have also stated multiple times.
Also, stagnation doesn’t mean everything stops, it means the fighting continues, it means extremely limited access for aid workers, it means chaos, it means people fleeing, it means supplies getting stolen by Hamas.
@DdCno1 just to be clear, the reason I am calling this a genocide is because it closely matches Raphael Lemkin’s definition of a genocide.
I agree with you, intent matters.
A note on the death toll though, historically Hamas health authority figures have been fairly accurate to final independently assessed death tolls. This is according to all the biggest NGOs and news agencies I trust such as MSF and BBC. Obviously there are logistical challenges and they are likely undercounting those killed in rubble.
International humanitarian NGOs are now sounding the warning about looming deaths due to secondary causes malnutrition and disease which in a deliberate man-made famine situation still count.
Would an army hell-bent on committing genocide roof-knock, drop leaflets, send warnings by telephone, messenger, social media and hacked TV stations?
This is all IDF propaganda. Even if they are doing all of these things consistently and precisely, what evidence is there that these efforts have any effect I’m reducing civilian casualties?
We’d need an honest and open accounting of casualties to check that. And the IDF will not do that.
This is so strange. How can people have so little empathy for the lives of innocent people?
Israeli citizens are subjected to daily propaganda (e.g. “there are no civilians in Gaza”, “Hamas is ISIS”, “Hamas wants to murder all jews”, etc.) to legitimize their fascistic policies.
There are a lot of parallels to the US short/y after 9/11.
Same textbooks are being referenced.
“Closest, special” ally and all that jazz.
Religion
It’s part of Israel’s propaganda to make this about religion to invoke irrational “War on Terror” sentiments in people who haven’t looked into it that deeply.
In reality, they’re dehumanizing and targeting all Palestinian Arabs, including Christians. Hence the shooting up and bombing of churches along with everything else.
Some of them are Kahanists but I don’t think religion figures into their motives as a wider group except for scapegoating purposes.
Fascism
You just need to convince people that the “innocent people” are not people
They convince themselves.
I don’t think the Israeli consented to being brainwashed by Hasbara.
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Well to quote the Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”
They think Palestinians are subhuman. Israel has become the evil it once fled.
It amazes me officials can speak like this, yet there are also the widespread reports of organ theft (esp. skin and corneas removed from bodies). Even some reports of blond babies being kidnapped from their families because they’re assumed not to be Arab. Where is the cognitive dissonance?
A lot of people’s hearts are too full of hatred to hold anything else.
Hatred : Heart :: White Bread : Stomach
5% of the population is psychopathic. Folks forget this stat. They also forget that moral competence exists on a spectrum, so that even regular people are capable of great evil, especially in service to their religion.
Maybe they should have a number tatooed on their arms to remind them?
/superdarkhumor
75 years of being attacked leads to some fucked up thinking. Most Israelis, like most Palestinians know people who have been victims of violence repeatedly. Their mindsets aren’t the same as those in the West with the safety and security provided by border stability. Which is why it’s so interesting seeing the Western ideals being pushed on this conflict. Those ravers should be jailed though, they’re contradicting the ICJ order. Whether it’s the Israeli government or not, the order was to enable the provision of aid and that means clearing obstacles.
75 years of brainwashing you mean
There’s no brainwashing needed to be able to read a history book at every turn. It’s been the Arabs who have attacked and the Israelis who have defended.
And just like we saw in October Palestinians struck out and now they’re crying because they’re losing yet another war they start. It’s an age-old tactic for Arabs to use human suffering in order to garner sympathy from the West, and it works for good reason. Nothing has changed since it was pointed out that peace will not come until Arabs love their children as much as they hate Jews and nothing will change until they stop raising martyrs and start deradicalizing their people. Defunding UNRWA is a good first step.
What history books are you reading?
Antisemitism in Islam and Arab World
British Mandate Period:
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928
1929 Riots from Forward and 972Mag
Shaw Commission
Peel Commission Report and Memorandum of the Arab Higher Committee 1937
1936-1939 Revolt from JVL, Britannica, MEE
Irgun and Lehi activity
What Hitler and the Grand Mufti Really Said: Time, Haaretz, WaPo
Yosef Weitz’ unofficial Transfer Committee and the JNF. Which has dispossessed Palestinians to present day. 972mag, MEE, Haaretz
1948 to 1967:
Plan Dalet and Declassified Massacres
Additional context of what was detailed in Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948)
Arab League advocating for unified state 1948
1967 war Declassified
Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations practiced in the occupied territories after 1967
How the US became the ally of Israel
UK influence
Occupation:
Occupation and 50 years of dispossession
1st Intifada AJ, PBS, Haaretz
Oslo Accords MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ
2nd Intifada AJ, Haaretz
Gaza Blockade is Occupation
Dahiya Doctrine
Arab Israelis are not equal including Education (2001 report)
Palestinian Prisoners in Israel and Military Court
Child abuse of Palestinian prisoners
Apartheid
Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)
Settler Violence, Torture and Abuse in Interrogations, No freedom of movement, and also Water control
Gaza March for Return Protest
Palestinians lack civil rights
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
AWRAD Gaza War Poll
PCPSR Public Opinion Poll Dec 2023
History of peace process
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs archived here
10 Myths of Israel
lol can’t help but notice that they didn’t respond again
The gish gallop doesn’t change the fact that the Arab Nations instigated and started every war since the inception of Israel. Half of those posts affirm Arab aggression as well.
Also notably missing from the list is the near million Jews ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries surrounding Israel in the 40s. For all the talk of the Nakba, there were more Jews displaced than Arabs. Yet one group accepted reality and built a nation. The other is still fighting a war they lost 3 generations ago.
lol didn’t even read it
I’ve read most of what you’ve posted here in my university education. More than half of that is irrelevant. Of course non israelis don’t have rights in Israel. Israeli Arabs do though. Half of your posts affirm Arab aggression too.
Plenty of back and forth, are you denying the fact that the Arab Nations instigated and were the aggressors in each of the wars started since the inception of Israel?
Somehow, I’m not convinced you read any of the links. Did you know over 250 thousand Palestinians were forcibly displaced before Israel declared independence?
Wow, the other guy already addressed the history books part but I wanted to stop for a second and focus on
Wonder how people would take it if we were addressing the other party in this conflict, and someone like you would throw in a gross generalisation, pointing out that it goes back a long time.
LoL, like gross generalizing hasn’t warped the word Zionist into the updated version of dirty Jew.
The history remains the same, the surrounding Arab Nations have been attacking Israel since it’s inception. they refuse to acknowledge Israel and they continue to feed bodies into martyrdom in the name of their goal of a pan arabian caliphate. The wild thing is they don’t even deny it, but the West refuses to accept their own words.
I can give multiple examples of group members who disagree with elements of their group so substantively, they split off and form new groups. Schisms are normal reactions to outside/inside actors co-opting or directing a group, Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, Protestants and Catholics, America and the Commonwealth…
If you’re upset that something is being done by a group you’re a part of, who openly declares to be working towards a goal that is unpopular outside the group, leave the group. There are plenty of Jews and Jewish groups that reject revisionist Zionism and/or Kahanism, the notion of Jewishness is not owned by a political party nor ideology. Claiming that criticism of the movement is a dog whistle, becomes unconvincing and is disingenuous to the reader
So its okay for you to do it? Must be confusing to be you mate. I won’t even touch the second part, someone posted a few links before, since you keep mentioning ‘history’ it might be time to start reading about it instead if just making things up
Most of those links supported the position that Arabs are the aggressors FFS. Did you even read them?
I’m very familiar with the history of this region, and I’m very positive that it was not the Israelis who started the wars they’ve suffered from.
It’s actually perfectly fine for Israel to defend itself, that much was made clear in the ICJ ruling. What the ruling didn’t establish though is that there’s a genocide happening.
Bro… How do You imagine state of Israel was founded?
Just curious 🤔🤨
The problem with your hypothesis is that all of us can read a history book, and yet few would agree with the majority of Israeli citizens that murdering children is justified.
Again, if someone were persecuted, why would that make him want to murder random children? It makes no logical sense. The only explanation is brainwashing and religious zealotry.
Some nice racism in there.
Being Arab isn’t a race and if it was I’d be saying it about myself.
Being Muslim is definitely not a race; not so sure about the Arab part.
Race is a social construct after all. Humans are all one specie of Animal. What we see are just slight genetical variation from one ethnicity/culture to another.
LoL!
Ok, do You Kno how the state of Israel was founded ?!
You mean when King David granted lands to the tribes?
Or more recently when the British mandate was lifted, and Jordan and Israel were granted nation status by the UN? Do you know how India and Pakistan was founded?
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The amount of propaganda in this post is hilarious. It was Jewish land the entire time baby. Always will be now too. Cry harder.
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I think they may be viewing it as more of an act of defiance and retribution for the rave hamas murdered all those innocent people at. If you view it as an isolated thing happening during a “war” then it really makes no sense.
It makes no sense anyway. Hamas murdered innocent people so they want to …murder more innocent people.
It makes perfect sense. It’s not constructive, effective or helping to move towards any kind of resolution of this conflict, but on a personal level, it does make sense.
I think, as far as regular people go, at this stage both sides in the conflict are primarily motivated by revenge. We can dress it all up with fancy words of occupation, injustice, national self defense or whatever your chosen flavor of ideology is in this conflict. But for regular everyday people in the region the primary reason why they want to see the other regular people die is revenge.
With that logic doesn’t that makes hamas targeting Israel civilians makes perfect sense since they are living under colonization?
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@chillhelm I guess. There are probably plenty of ordinary humans who empathise with other civilians there too, it’s just we don’t hear so much about those.
I knew a woman whose husband was held prisoner by the Axis during WWII Her response was to go every weekend to a POW camp of “enemy” soldiers and bring them food, chocolate etc, since they were in the same situation as her husband. That, is also part of human nature, just not the side the war monger$ like to encourage.
That is really the tragedy about the whole thing. A small warmongering minority on both sides pulls in people who really just want to live in peace and safety and have enough to eat, a roof over their head,… who are likely the vast majority on both sides.
Yeah I think so. We get told it’s about “religion” but it’s really about geopolitical interests and a transnational military industrial complex that constantly stir this stuff up and exploit religious tensions.
It is about religion in the sense that religion makes it much easier for a small number of malicious people to control a large number of people and make them do things against their own interest.
Very true.
Well put. The warmongers kill innocent people. The next of kin want revenge, and empower the warmongers on their side. And onward the circle turns.
It also doesn’t help that the warmongers control the flow of information.
These protests were started by families of hostages who are still in Gaza. They don’t want any supplies into Gaza until all hostages are released, because they fear that most of the aid will be stolen by Hamas anyway and used to prolong the war.
How the fuck is hamas prolonging the genocide, fuck outta here
What are they afraid that they’re going to throw loaves of bread and first aid kits at Israeli soldiers? Knock it the fuck off
Hamas has consistently stolen aid meant for civilians:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-aid-trucks-stolen-by-gunmen-and-looted-as-convoys-start-crossing-from-israel/
Before you scoff at the source, there’s video evidence included in the article that is impossible to deny.
It should be pretty obvious that food, medical supplies and fuel are needed by fighters as well and in much larger quantities per person.
This is a difficult problem to solve. Personally, I would still send supplies though, hoping that at least some of them reach civilians who need them, but I can understand the frustration of people who are personally affected by this war. This aid unfortunately does have a not just theoretical chance of prolonging the conflict, enabling the besieged terrorist organization to hold out for longer, which in turn means more suffering not just for hostages and Israelis who only just recently have seen a reduction in rocket attacks, but also for Palestinian civilians, who are caught between a rock (IDF) and a hard place (Hamas) for as long as the fighting continues.
Here’s the moral conundrum: Let’s say we could determine with near certainty that halting aid would shorten the war, even if it resulted in a temporary increase in human suffering due to increased shortages. If the total amount of human suffering would be lower as a result, due to the war being over sooner, would it be the right moral choice, even if people end up suffering more for a brief amount of time? Think of it as a variation of the trolley problem.
Starving the entire population, half of which are children, is an inhumane solution. If it is too effective, it becomes the final solution.
U.S. special envoy: no record of Hamas blocking or seizing aid Reuters
Article from November 4. The one I linked is from December 17.
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@DdCno1 I wonder what they imagine the hostages are eating.
What is happening to the hostages when they are being bombed by that psychopath Netanyahu.
Based on what surviving hostages have reported and going by the fact that medication meant for them never reached them, not much.
For as much of a bastard as Netanyahu is, you can’t fight a modern war effectively without bombs (or else you get stagnation like in Ukraine, where air defenses on both sides make use of bombers difficult to impossible) and the hostages wouldn’t be in danger of getting bombed in the first place if Hamas hadn’t abducted them from their homes and started this war.
@DdCno1 I would much rather stagnation than genocide.
At least 1.5% of the population of Gaza has been killed in under 5 months.
To put that into perspective, in the Bosnian Genocide 3% of Bosniaks were killed in a process which took over 2 years.
Intent matters. The actual death toll (which we don’t actually have for Gaza - we only have Hamas reporting figures, which includes obvious lies like that hospital parking lot incident that I’m sure you remember) is actually irrelevant in assessing whether or not something is a genocide. Think about this for a second: Would an army hell-bent on committing genocide roof-knock, drop leaflets, send warnings by telephone, messenger, social media and hacked TV stations? Why bother, why give warning to an enemy (any time you warn civilians, Hamas fighters will also be able to flee or hide) if the actual goal, like you are claiming, is eradication?
Before you’re saying that this is just a smoke screen: The Israeli government clearly doesn’t care about outside appearances, as they have stated multiple times, and would bring this war to its conclusion no matter what the world is saying, as they have also stated multiple times.
Also, stagnation doesn’t mean everything stops, it means the fighting continues, it means extremely limited access for aid workers, it means chaos, it means people fleeing, it means supplies getting stolen by Hamas.
@DdCno1 just to be clear, the reason I am calling this a genocide is because it closely matches Raphael Lemkin’s definition of a genocide.
I agree with you, intent matters.
A note on the death toll though, historically Hamas health authority figures have been fairly accurate to final independently assessed death tolls. This is according to all the biggest NGOs and news agencies I trust such as MSF and BBC. Obviously there are logistical challenges and they are likely undercounting those killed in rubble.
International humanitarian NGOs are now sounding the warning about looming deaths due to secondary causes malnutrition and disease which in a deliberate man-made famine situation still count.
This is all IDF propaganda. Even if they are doing all of these things consistently and precisely, what evidence is there that these efforts have any effect I’m reducing civilian casualties?
We’d need an honest and open accounting of casualties to check that. And the IDF will not do that.