So, your “self” isn’t just your brain, you have an entire nervous system throughout your body AND a secondary system linked to your gut and secondary tissues… Being just a brain isn’t even close to all of “you”
You know phantom limb syndrome? Imagine phantom everything syndrome
body with 8 arms
Neuroplasticity is an interesting thing
Has there been anything even hinting a 2nd pair of arms would be viable? Seeing people with the John Hopkins MPL (Modular Prosthetic Limb) seems like their control isn’t as fluid as a normal arm or even what the arm is capable of. Granted, people with them likely have nerve remapping and have long been without that arm, but it seems like it’d work out better than something new.
I mean there is the second thumb thing, but that uses toe movement.
The MPL is used with non-invasive electrodes, or electromyographic sensors. There is a version where they re-innervated a guy’s chest in order to place the sensors, that had a larger freedom of movements and lower lag, but the processing still lagged a bit, and the subject and/or the system had trouble interpreting too many movements at once.
However, even more years ago, there were experiments on monkeys with a 3rd robot arm hooked up directly to a brain implant. Some seemed to get it quite quickly, ending up being able to solve problems like if they always had 3 arms.
Main problem was, the brain-electrode interface: spike electrodes can only be made so long before they risk getting bent on insertion by a neurosurgeon, and over time (months) scar tissue forms around them, limiting the sensitivity, until they become pretty much useless… at which point a test monkey can be “disposed of”, but humans not so much.
That’s why Neuralink is focusing not on the limbs themselves, which are basically a done deal at this point, but on the brain-electrode interface. If they manage to implant a large electrode array in a way that it doesn’t stop working for several years, they’ll be able to hook up any kind of limb(s), prosthetics, or excavator arms, with direct brain control.
BTW, the original DARPA research on all of this, is advertised as “helping veterans”… but in reality they’re using veterans as test subjects for their actual goals: an electromyographic sensor can detect a pilot’s intention to press the trigger, or move a stick, before the actual muscle contracts, presses the trigger, and that gets detected. That way they can shave off several ms from a pilot’s reaction time. Direct brain implants, could make that even quicker… if it wasn’t for side effect like some Neuralink’s test monkeys dying from “continuous vomiting”… something that nobody wants to happen even a few months after having paid for the training of a fighter pilot.
As an aside, all of this is possible because brain neuroplasticity works all the time. Every time we pick a tool, whether a stick, a car, or a fighter jet, after some training, our brains switch to a slightly different “body map” that includes the tool as an extension of the body.
So right now we have both the limbs (including every human-operated tool), and the ability for a brain to adapt to the “modified body”; what we’re lacking, is an effective long-term way of connecting the two.
As another aside… the brain’s ability to switch body maps, means a single implant should be able to control anything, not just limbs. The question of where is the limit for extra limbs, both in the brain’s limitations, and in how many electrodes need to be implanted, is open for now. Some speculate that a full-brain mesh of electrodes, could allow people to use multiple full bodies at once. If they were implanted at birth, it’s anyone’s guess how a developing brain would adapt to what. There are some development patterns, like stereo vision or hearing ability, that rely on brain structures that are genetically encoded, but there’s no saying where is the limit for expanding them, or everything else. Coopting the vision development to insert multi spectral data, including magnetic fields, might not be that a far fetched idea. There is also no reason to think a “brain in a jar” wouldn’t grow much bigger than when restricted by a skull, or that multiple brains couldn’t be connected and made work in parallel (brain hemispheres already do that, by default humans have “two brains” that are tightly interconnected… octopuses have 9 brains).
Not sure if it’s the same, but I see a video of that and the monkey’s arms are partially restricted and still moving (and another where it says reenactment at the start). Interesting, but it might just be a cloned signal rather than independent control.
Though I guess swapping between sets and some basic controls (hold, gimbal, return to rest pose etc) wouldn’t be bad (especially the more naturally it can be controlled) it just seems like something different if it isn’t independent control.
full-brain mesh of electrodes, could allow people to use multiple full bodies at once
or that multiple brains couldn’t be connected and made work in parallel (brain hemispheres already do that
I’ve had the exact opposite thought, multiple brains (in the sense of multiple people) residing in the same body. Usage shifts (to allow rest), partial control, or even simply observation/eyes-in-the-back-of-your-head/backup/advice/talking etc.
That definitely would allow at least 4 arms.
On a sidenote, in the Blender Open Movie CHARGE there’s a cool robot design where it starts out with 1 big (no-hand) arm and 2 little arms on the other side and then it transforms that into 2 normal arms.
Silly thought, but I wonder to what extent drugs would facilitate the process of adapting to new body parts.
I was thinking at first, I would guess that older patients likely have less adaptive reception, while younger patients undergoing limb-additive surgery would seem to be more likely to have the brain adapt to the mechanical limbs. But we can’t exactly test extra limbs on youth ethically, thus the drugs. Lol.
I mean yes, I would want an extended nervous system (hotpluggable for other different bodies, if possible) and some sort of symbiotic systems (bacteria microbiome probably needed for an immune system anyway).
But other than that my meats and autonomic nervous system are defective so jar me up. So long as there’s a self-termination sequence or something.
yeah that sounds great, liberate me from the endocrine. Haven’t you ever wondered how it would feel to be seperate from all the hormones and animal miscellenia? I think about it a lot.
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine.
Your kind cling to your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call a temple will wither and you will beg my kind to save you.
But I am already saved. For the Machine is Immortal.
Or full VR experience online eg. Neuromancer. Though even if the tech was available and fully tested and working, there are many pros and cons to all forms of enhancement or out-of-body existence, or a more extended life.
I often think about a skeuomorphic VR experience. Like a virtual room inside your own head that doesn’t cut you off from senses available to your body, at most it’d just be presented in a different way much like the cartoon/trope (though things like hearing/smell/temperature could definitely stay direct). Even then, I’m not sure if certain things like tilt or momentum etc should be represented or if that should just be always-on.
Though for me I’d want it to mostly just be the equivalent of a body tracker (plus mouse/KB/controller emulation) that’s hooked up to a single-board-computer that can be more easily swapped out/upgraded etc (or use any normal desktop). As in no internet directly to the brain. Which would be good enough to play all of today’s VR games and jump out of it easier than taking off a headset and trackers.
Direct input of a computer screen would probably be easier and good enough most of the time, though. Then again, it might be cool to invite people into your brain house. Also in some cases imagine controlling your body with dials/levers and/or coordinates (and visualized data) but also still feeling it.
I hear you, but consider this: robot body
So, your “self” isn’t just your brain, you have an entire nervous system throughout your body AND a secondary system linked to your gut and secondary tissues… Being just a brain isn’t even close to all of “you”
You know phantom limb syndrome? Imagine phantom everything syndrome
Counter-argument: imagine a robot body with 8 arms.
By the time you get used to them, you’ll have forgotten about all the rest. Neuroplasticity is an interesting thing.
Has there been anything even hinting a 2nd pair of arms would be viable? Seeing people with the John Hopkins MPL (Modular Prosthetic Limb) seems like their control isn’t as fluid as a normal arm or even what the arm is capable of. Granted, people with them likely have nerve remapping and have long been without that arm, but it seems like it’d work out better than something new.
I mean there is the second thumb thing, but that uses toe movement.
The MPL is used with non-invasive electrodes, or electromyographic sensors. There is a version where they re-innervated a guy’s chest in order to place the sensors, that had a larger freedom of movements and lower lag, but the processing still lagged a bit, and the subject and/or the system had trouble interpreting too many movements at once.
However, even more years ago, there were experiments on monkeys with a 3rd robot arm hooked up directly to a brain implant. Some seemed to get it quite quickly, ending up being able to solve problems like if they always had 3 arms.
Main problem was, the brain-electrode interface: spike electrodes can only be made so long before they risk getting bent on insertion by a neurosurgeon, and over time (months) scar tissue forms around them, limiting the sensitivity, until they become pretty much useless… at which point a test monkey can be “disposed of”, but humans not so much.
That’s why Neuralink is focusing not on the limbs themselves, which are basically a done deal at this point, but on the brain-electrode interface. If they manage to implant a large electrode array in a way that it doesn’t stop working for several years, they’ll be able to hook up any kind of limb(s), prosthetics, or excavator arms, with direct brain control.
BTW, the original DARPA research on all of this, is advertised as “helping veterans”… but in reality they’re using veterans as test subjects for their actual goals: an electromyographic sensor can detect a pilot’s intention to press the trigger, or move a stick, before the actual muscle contracts, presses the trigger, and that gets detected. That way they can shave off several ms from a pilot’s reaction time. Direct brain implants, could make that even quicker… if it wasn’t for side effect like some Neuralink’s test monkeys dying from “continuous vomiting”… something that nobody wants to happen even a few months after having paid for the training of a fighter pilot.
As an aside, all of this is possible because brain neuroplasticity works all the time. Every time we pick a tool, whether a stick, a car, or a fighter jet, after some training, our brains switch to a slightly different “body map” that includes the tool as an extension of the body.
So right now we have both the limbs (including every human-operated tool), and the ability for a brain to adapt to the “modified body”; what we’re lacking, is an effective long-term way of connecting the two.
As another aside… the brain’s ability to switch body maps, means a single implant should be able to control anything, not just limbs. The question of where is the limit for extra limbs, both in the brain’s limitations, and in how many electrodes need to be implanted, is open for now. Some speculate that a full-brain mesh of electrodes, could allow people to use multiple full bodies at once. If they were implanted at birth, it’s anyone’s guess how a developing brain would adapt to what. There are some development patterns, like stereo vision or hearing ability, that rely on brain structures that are genetically encoded, but there’s no saying where is the limit for expanding them, or everything else. Coopting the vision development to insert multi spectral data, including magnetic fields, might not be that a far fetched idea. There is also no reason to think a “brain in a jar” wouldn’t grow much bigger than when restricted by a skull, or that multiple brains couldn’t be connected and made work in parallel (brain hemispheres already do that, by default humans have “two brains” that are tightly interconnected… octopuses have 9 brains).
Not sure if it’s the same, but I see a video of that and the monkey’s arms are partially restricted and still moving (and another where it says reenactment at the start). Interesting, but it might just be a cloned signal rather than independent control.
Though I guess swapping between sets and some basic controls (hold, gimbal, return to rest pose etc) wouldn’t be bad (especially the more naturally it can be controlled) it just seems like something different if it isn’t independent control.
I’ve had the exact opposite thought, multiple brains (in the sense of multiple people) residing in the same body. Usage shifts (to allow rest), partial control, or even simply observation/eyes-in-the-back-of-your-head/backup/advice/talking etc.
That definitely would allow at least 4 arms.
On a sidenote, in the Blender Open Movie CHARGE there’s a cool robot design where it starts out with 1 big (no-hand) arm and 2 little arms on the other side and then it transforms that into 2 normal arms.
Silly thought, but I wonder to what extent drugs would facilitate the process of adapting to new body parts.
I was thinking at first, I would guess that older patients likely have less adaptive reception, while younger patients undergoing limb-additive surgery would seem to be more likely to have the brain adapt to the mechanical limbs. But we can’t exactly test extra limbs on youth ethically, thus the drugs. Lol.
I mean yes, I would want an extended nervous system (hotpluggable for other different bodies, if possible) and some sort of symbiotic systems (bacteria microbiome probably needed for an immune system anyway).
But other than that my meats and autonomic nervous system are defective so jar me up. So long as there’s a self-termination sequence or something.
yeah that sounds great, liberate me from the endocrine. Haven’t you ever wondered how it would feel to be seperate from all the hormones and animal miscellenia? I think about it a lot.
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine.
Your kind cling to your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call a temple will wither and you will beg my kind to save you.
But I am already saved. For the Machine is Immortal.
Or full VR experience online eg. Neuromancer. Though even if the tech was available and fully tested and working, there are many pros and cons to all forms of enhancement or out-of-body existence, or a more extended life.
I often think about a skeuomorphic VR experience. Like a virtual room inside your own head that doesn’t cut you off from senses available to your body, at most it’d just be presented in a different way much like the cartoon/trope (though things like hearing/smell/temperature could definitely stay direct). Even then, I’m not sure if certain things like tilt or momentum etc should be represented or if that should just be always-on.
Though for me I’d want it to mostly just be the equivalent of a body tracker (plus mouse/KB/controller emulation) that’s hooked up to a single-board-computer that can be more easily swapped out/upgraded etc (or use any normal desktop). As in no internet directly to the brain. Which would be good enough to play all of today’s VR games and jump out of it easier than taking off a headset and trackers.
Direct input of a computer screen would probably be easier and good enough most of the time, though. Then again, it might be cool to invite people into your brain house. Also in some cases imagine controlling your body with dials/levers and/or coordinates (and visualized data) but also still feeling it.