Matthew 10 is definitely more about conviction in the face of persecution, even from one’s own family, than literally taking up swords. Just a few verses earlier, 10:16, he specifically says to be harmless as doves.
You’re gonna have to find me an actual verse on that second part, as I interpret it, “loving the Father” goes hand-in-hand with treating others with love and respect.
Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Luke 22:35-36
FWIW this is absent in Marcion’s version of the gospel which was likely representing one of the earliest surviving versions and I’m pretty much positive this is a later redactional addition (the part about taking a purse relates to taking money from people when ministering), but in terms whether there’s a canonical quote of Jesus literally telling people to take up arms, ask and ye shall receive.
It’s useful to look at the gospels through the lens of redactional layers.
So for example a later editor may have wanted to include Matthew’s rebuke of using swords as is mentioned in Mark and was originally omitted in first draft Luke, and then the editor thought they needed to explain why they had swords in the first place by having Jesus at the last supper command them to immediately go out and buy swords.
I’ll also add that in Matthew’s account that Jesus says at that moment to put away the sword because (loosely) “those who use the shall die by the sword”. And he later says, as if he couldn’t summon heaven’s army if needed.
An interpretation could be that it’s a display that these things must happen and Jesus went willingly, not forced because he was unarmed. When Jesus preached, it wasn’t with sword in-hand. And in Matthew he specifies they are trying to get the better of him by doing this in the middle of the night and assume he is unarmed (as always).
Also later in the Luke he literally says that the two swords by them “is enough” so they don’t go and sell their things to buy swords.
I’d advise everyone to be careful about picking specific verses since the chapter/verse system is something added later for simplicity, not how it was intended to be read.
Matthew 10 is definitely more about conviction in the face of persecution, even from one’s own family, than literally taking up swords.
“I come not to bring peace, but a sword” is pretty unequivocal. Plus, consider “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36).
You’re gonna have to find me an actual verse on that second part, as I interpret it, “loving the Father” goes hand-in-hand with treating others with love and respect.
And as others interpret The Greatest Commandment, “love your neighbor” only applies to people that share the same ideals or religion. After all, there are multiple references in the New Testament to “God’s elect” (Rom. 8:33, Matt. 24:22) implying that those that are not “chosen” are somehow lesser. And is not exactly a new issue, as theologians have argued about predestination and God’s chosen people for centuries Foster, Robert Verrell (1898). Systematic Theology. Columbia University, among many others.
It’s not exactly encouraging that the Son of God can’t even explain the most important commandments in a simple, unambiguous manner…
The Son of Man. I don’t believe that Jesus was uniquely divine, I think he was uniquely conscious of the divinity within everyone.
Religion is a centuries-long game of telephone. Jesus never wrote anything. Prophets are enlightened examples of humanity, but with enough time the message is bent and twisted by less enlightened examples. You don’t have to think he was some supernatural creature to agree with his message, and you don’t have to reject the message to recognize that greedy people exploit popular movements for personal gain.
Trying to dismiss the message by poking holes in the secondhand accounts of his fan club is misguided. I should know, I spent long enough indulging in the practice myself.
Religion is a centuries-long game of telephone. Jesus never wrote anything.
Then why the hell did you bother asking for chapter and verse? Classic apologetics fan; ask for an example or evidence and then equivocate when you get exactly what you asked for.
Trying to dismiss the message by poking holes in the secondhand accounts of his fan club is misguided
Considering that the only thing left of the “enlightened” prophet are the secondhand accounts of his fan club, I’m not sure exactly what you think “the message” is…
I’m dismissive of “the message” not because it’s easy to poke holes in the theology and historicity of the Christian bible (although it obviously is), but because there is no consistent theology or message that can traced anyone with any sort of reliability. If that’s all there is to glean from exhaustive apologetics and exegesis of “the teachings of Jesus,” I won’t bother to go to a religion or guess “WWJD” for that; there are plenty of better moral frameworks and more consistent belief systems out there.
To point out that, even after the game of telephone, it still doesn’t say what you claim it does.
How so?
You still haven’t claimed anything at all other than “WWJD is a good rule of thumb,” with which I disagreed and provided examples of why I believe that WWJD is not a good moral or ethical model.
Which of those moral frameworks encourages antagonizing the beliefs of strangers?
Plenty of religions and secular moral frameworks value truth and honesty over protecting the feelings of others. Do I particularly care if I change your mind? No, you are entitled to your own beliefs and that’s fine. However, I’ve seen enough evil done in the name of WWJD and “God’s love” that I’m not going to ignore the questionable (and IMO irresponsible) claim that WWJD is a good moral framework when it’s presented in a public venue where others might read it.
If you don’t want to be challenged on it, keep your religion to yourself.
I disagreed and provided examples of why I believe that WWJD is not a good moral or ethical model.
You didn’t though? You brought up a verse about swords taken wildly out of context. You seem to be confusing a general tendency for charity, tolerance, and forgiveness with the entire combined corpus of various sects. What evil has been done in the name of WWJD? Sure, the Catholic Church has been co-opted by bastards essentially since it’s inception, and most other sects have their share of bastardry, but what does that have to do with emulating the most consistent elements of Jesus’s teachings? Forgive your trespassers, help the struggling, love your neighbor as yourself.
And to be clear, it’s not my religion. I do not profess to be a member of any Christian sect. I just think that most of the things Jesus himself said (or is purported to have said) are generally a good moral baseline. Further, based on his position on the Pharisees, I’m sure he himself would take serious issue with the evil done ostensibly in the name of his church. All the more support for WWJD.
Which of those moral frameworks encourages antagonizing the beliefs of strangers?
The parts when he says how they are going to hell? Or the part when he talked about a future time when his followers would murder those that opposed him.
How do you know what the nature of the original message was? We have some information that is dubious, unless you dug up an old scroll or something I don’t see what you have that we do not.
Neurology has shown that if you ask someone what their God thinks about x and what you think about x the same parts of the brain becomes active. I want you to please consider that. Is it possible that the “true” message is just what you want to be true?
Jesus healed the sick, fed the hungry, acted with mercy, and called out religious hypocrites. Whether he was a historic figure, or an allegorical one, those are behaviors to emulate. I don’t need some old scroll, or an originalist account. Jesus, as a memetic construct, personifies a collection of admirable behaviors. Historicity is irrelevant to “What would Jesus do?” as a moral hypothetical.
In Mark he healed the lepor after first yelling at him. In Matthew and Luke and Mark he then orders the lepor to go to a Pharisse and repent. In Mark he heals a women’s son so she would make him a meal. In Matthew as a demonstration of his power to a Roman leader. Again in Matthew he only heals a woman’s son after he grovels at his feet and called herself a racial slur. As for the tradition of feeding the multitudes it is pretty funny how the people who saw it (twice!) couldn’t remember it and Jesus has to remind them on the ship.
acted with mercy,
When? Certainly not in John with the Adultress, that was a seventh century forgery. Was it when he ordered the swine to die? Or cursed the fig tree? Or when he told people he talked in parables so they wouldn’t understand him and go to hell? Was it when he told people to only divorce in cases of adultery? Or when he told people they had to follow the law stronger than anyone else? Or when he told them to rip their eyes out for being horny? Or all the torture he gets up to in Revelations? Or when he told his followers that they will murder his enemies and cast the bodies in front of him at his feet?
nd called out religious hypocrites.
Cite an example. Because I am turning up blank.
Whether he was a historic figure, or an allegorical one, those are behaviors to emulate.
A con made up but sure why the hell not? If you ignore all the awful stuff and only pick and choose the few verses you like go ahead and do it. Buffet style morality.
Historicity is irrelevant to “What would Jesus do?” as a moral hypothetical.
Tell people that they should abandon their work and family depending on skydaddy to solve their issues for them.
To me the Bible is propaganda based on lies. It is only a source of morality/wisdom accidentally.
Exactly. And while there are some very basic “good rules,” the content of “the message” is much more about maintaining existing power structures, explicitly or subtly oppressing women and other marginalized groups, and suppressing advocates of revolutionary change.
The negatives and the baggage far outweigh the positives, especially since there’s absolutely nothing unique or even groundbreaking about the idea of “treat others with kindness”
Matthew 10 is definitely more about conviction in the face of persecution, even from one’s own family, than literally taking up swords. Just a few verses earlier, 10:16, he specifically says to be harmless as doves.
You’re gonna have to find me an actual verse on that second part, as I interpret it, “loving the Father” goes hand-in-hand with treating others with love and respect.
FWIW this is absent in Marcion’s version of the gospel which was likely representing one of the earliest surviving versions and I’m pretty much positive this is a later redactional addition (the part about taking a purse relates to taking money from people when ministering), but in terms whether there’s a canonical quote of Jesus literally telling people to take up arms, ask and ye shall receive.
But then in Luke 22:49-51 when they try to actually use those swords:
Which is also missing in Marcion’s version of Luke.
It’s useful to look at the gospels through the lens of redactional layers.
So for example a later editor may have wanted to include Matthew’s rebuke of using swords as is mentioned in Mark and was originally omitted in first draft Luke, and then the editor thought they needed to explain why they had swords in the first place by having Jesus at the last supper command them to immediately go out and buy swords.
I’ll also add that in Matthew’s account that Jesus says at that moment to put away the sword because (loosely) “those who use the shall die by the sword”. And he later says, as if he couldn’t summon heaven’s army if needed.
An interpretation could be that it’s a display that these things must happen and Jesus went willingly, not forced because he was unarmed. When Jesus preached, it wasn’t with sword in-hand. And in Matthew he specifies they are trying to get the better of him by doing this in the middle of the night and assume he is unarmed (as always).
Also later in the Luke he literally says that the two swords by them “is enough” so they don’t go and sell their things to buy swords.
I’d advise everyone to be careful about picking specific verses since the chapter/verse system is something added later for simplicity, not how it was intended to be read.
“I come not to bring peace, but a sword” is pretty unequivocal. Plus, consider “He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36).
And as others interpret The Greatest Commandment, “love your neighbor” only applies to people that share the same ideals or religion. After all, there are multiple references in the New Testament to “God’s elect” (Rom. 8:33, Matt. 24:22) implying that those that are not “chosen” are somehow lesser. And is not exactly a new issue, as theologians have argued about predestination and God’s chosen people for centuries Foster, Robert Verrell (1898). Systematic Theology. Columbia University, among many others.
It’s not exactly encouraging that the Son of God can’t even explain the most important commandments in a simple, unambiguous manner…
The Son of Man. I don’t believe that Jesus was uniquely divine, I think he was uniquely conscious of the divinity within everyone.
Religion is a centuries-long game of telephone. Jesus never wrote anything. Prophets are enlightened examples of humanity, but with enough time the message is bent and twisted by less enlightened examples. You don’t have to think he was some supernatural creature to agree with his message, and you don’t have to reject the message to recognize that greedy people exploit popular movements for personal gain.
Trying to dismiss the message by poking holes in the secondhand accounts of his fan club is misguided. I should know, I spent long enough indulging in the practice myself.
Then why the hell did you bother asking for chapter and verse? Classic apologetics fan; ask for an example or evidence and then equivocate when you get exactly what you asked for.
Considering that the only thing left of the “enlightened” prophet are the secondhand accounts of his fan club, I’m not sure exactly what you think “the message” is…
I’m dismissive of “the message” not because it’s easy to poke holes in the theology and historicity of the Christian bible (although it obviously is), but because there is no consistent theology or message that can traced anyone with any sort of reliability. If that’s all there is to glean from exhaustive apologetics and exegesis of “the teachings of Jesus,” I won’t bother to go to a religion or guess “WWJD” for that; there are plenty of better moral frameworks and more consistent belief systems out there.
To point out that, even after the game of telephone, it still doesn’t say what you claim it does.
Which of those moral frameworks encourages antagonizing the beliefs of strangers?
How so?
You still haven’t claimed anything at all other than “WWJD is a good rule of thumb,” with which I disagreed and provided examples of why I believe that WWJD is not a good moral or ethical model.
Plenty of religions and secular moral frameworks value truth and honesty over protecting the feelings of others. Do I particularly care if I change your mind? No, you are entitled to your own beliefs and that’s fine. However, I’ve seen enough evil done in the name of WWJD and “God’s love” that I’m not going to ignore the questionable (and IMO irresponsible) claim that WWJD is a good moral framework when it’s presented in a public venue where others might read it.
If you don’t want to be challenged on it, keep your religion to yourself.
You didn’t though? You brought up a verse about swords taken wildly out of context. You seem to be confusing a general tendency for charity, tolerance, and forgiveness with the entire combined corpus of various sects. What evil has been done in the name of WWJD? Sure, the Catholic Church has been co-opted by bastards essentially since it’s inception, and most other sects have their share of bastardry, but what does that have to do with emulating the most consistent elements of Jesus’s teachings? Forgive your trespassers, help the struggling, love your neighbor as yourself.
And to be clear, it’s not my religion. I do not profess to be a member of any Christian sect. I just think that most of the things Jesus himself said (or is purported to have said) are generally a good moral baseline. Further, based on his position on the Pharisees, I’m sure he himself would take serious issue with the evil done ostensibly in the name of his church. All the more support for WWJD.
The parts when he says how they are going to hell? Or the part when he talked about a future time when his followers would murder those that opposed him.
I think you misread the question.
Just talking about the Gospel of Mark and Revelations. You know those two minor Christian works of no real significance.
Didn’t change the fact that you misread the question.
How do you know what the nature of the original message was? We have some information that is dubious, unless you dug up an old scroll or something I don’t see what you have that we do not.
Neurology has shown that if you ask someone what their God thinks about x and what you think about x the same parts of the brain becomes active. I want you to please consider that. Is it possible that the “true” message is just what you want to be true?
Jesus healed the sick, fed the hungry, acted with mercy, and called out religious hypocrites. Whether he was a historic figure, or an allegorical one, those are behaviors to emulate. I don’t need some old scroll, or an originalist account. Jesus, as a memetic construct, personifies a collection of admirable behaviors. Historicity is irrelevant to “What would Jesus do?” as a moral hypothetical.
In Mark he healed the lepor after first yelling at him. In Matthew and Luke and Mark he then orders the lepor to go to a Pharisse and repent. In Mark he heals a women’s son so she would make him a meal. In Matthew as a demonstration of his power to a Roman leader. Again in Matthew he only heals a woman’s son after he grovels at his feet and called herself a racial slur. As for the tradition of feeding the multitudes it is pretty funny how the people who saw it (twice!) couldn’t remember it and Jesus has to remind them on the ship.
When? Certainly not in John with the Adultress, that was a seventh century forgery. Was it when he ordered the swine to die? Or cursed the fig tree? Or when he told people he talked in parables so they wouldn’t understand him and go to hell? Was it when he told people to only divorce in cases of adultery? Or when he told people they had to follow the law stronger than anyone else? Or when he told them to rip their eyes out for being horny? Or all the torture he gets up to in Revelations? Or when he told his followers that they will murder his enemies and cast the bodies in front of him at his feet?
Cite an example. Because I am turning up blank.
A con made up but sure why the hell not? If you ignore all the awful stuff and only pick and choose the few verses you like go ahead and do it. Buffet style morality.
Tell people that they should abandon their work and family depending on skydaddy to solve their issues for them.
You don’t see any irony in that statement at all
Nope demonstration of the same logic used on different data as a means of showing a flaw in reasoning is not endorsement, it is demonstration.
To me the Bible is propaganda based on lies. It is only a source of morality/wisdom accidentally.
Exactly. And while there are some very basic “good rules,” the content of “the message” is much more about maintaining existing power structures, explicitly or subtly oppressing women and other marginalized groups, and suppressing advocates of revolutionary change.
The negatives and the baggage far outweigh the positives, especially since there’s absolutely nothing unique or even groundbreaking about the idea of “treat others with kindness”