And yet they don’t want to initiate the procedure to ban the fascist party.
Most of the supposedely democratic parties in Germany currently work either as “Steigbügelhalter” the guy who holds the horse saddle stirrup, for the lord to get on. Or they work as “Totengräber” the grave diggers of democracy, by standing by idly and accepting the loss of democratic principle and creating social and economic situations that fuel the fascists propaganda.
And yet they don’t want to initiate the procedure to ban the fascist part
I’m for doing that in general, but I think doing that now would be pretty dumb. If you want to initiate the procedure you better make sure your case is air tight, everything else would be a desaster. Only some regional organizations have been designated extremist so far and some only recently. So a lot of the gathering of evidence has started and surely there will be more to come.
@Localhorst86@feddit.de commented a part of aspeak of the high ranking party member Alice Weidel here.
It is classic Nazi rhetoric and uses the same scapegoat that Anders Breivik used to justify the mass murder of more than 70 teenagers in Norway.
Also if it would be ruled that the party in its entirety does not justify a ban yet, but its local branches that do, would get banned, that would effectively destroy them too. Also other measures that could be deemed appropriate, like blocking their funds, banning various associated organizations etc. would all help.
Meanwhile i dont think there is anyone, who likes their fascist ideology, but doesnt vote for them on the basis of uncertainty, about their democratic legitimation. Nobody that follows fascist ideology cares about democratic values or the constitution.
It is classic Nazi rhetoric and uses the same scapegoat that Anders Breivik used to justify the mass murder of more than 70 teenagers in Norway.
It’s awful, but I’m not sure how exactly you think that would factor in or be relevant in a possible court case. I’m fairly certain the bar of evidence is a bit higher than “they share talking points with other Nazis”.
Because those talking points revolve around the idea of an ethnically homogenous Europe/Nation that is in davger of being “conquered” by inferior races that have to be deported or murdered to prevent this alleged conquest.
It is genocidal ideology and as such is both in clear violation to the constitution and a danger to the democratic order.
The point is that their ideology gives way to murderous violence.
that is in davger of being “conquered” by inferior races that have to be deported or murdered to prevent this alleged conquest.
While that’s a common talking point on the right, that’s not even what the statement is saying. The only ones who are clearly villified in it are the people in power and they’re even brandished as supposedly “unconstitutional” (implying the Afd is on the side of the constitution).
It’s still complete hogwash of course and pure conspiracy thinking that is gross and detestable in several different ways.
The point is that their ideology gives way to murderous violence.
I don’t disagree. My point is only that just saying/claiming that by itself isn’t going to hold up in court. If it were, Weidel would have long been sued and found guilty of “Volksverhetzung” for statements like that. But these people, at least the more cunning ones, know how to couch their hate in words that generate some degree of plausible deniability and let their followers fill out the blanks.
The AfD also made statements of “well temperated cruelty” against the people they deem undesireable. In combination with these and many more statements made by high ranking AfD members there is no plausible deniability left.
In combination with these and many more statements made by high ranking AfD members there is no plausible deniability left.
Well, that certainly is a much better and more comprehensive point. It’s also just a claim of course and personally I don’t have a good enough overview of all the statements made, their relations etc to meaningfully judge that.
You’re free to expand on that point in more detail of course. Other than that, I can’t meaningfull contribute much here at this point.
There is over 2000 statements by AfD members, high ranking officials and also from official functions, like state or federal party executive committees.
Who’s “they”? The afd related person sitting most closely to the Afd leadership was “let go” from his position in response to the revelations. And all of them claim they were there in private capacity.
Without further evidence that is hardly worth all that much in front of a court.
Yeah of course he was let go, because of the media coverage. Otherwise nothing wouldn’t have happened.
They are not that dumb to attend something like this in person. There were other elected AfD Officials present
Also “private capacity” is a lame excuse that doesn’t fool nobody
Yes, they aren’t dumb enough to attend it in person precisely to avoid it falling back on them in a court of law. That’s my whole point. Everybody with half a brain can still see what’s going on of course.
And yet they don’t want to initiate the procedure to ban the fascist party.
Most of the supposedely democratic parties in Germany currently work either as “Steigbügelhalter” the guy who holds the horse saddle stirrup, for the lord to get on. Or they work as “Totengräber” the grave diggers of democracy, by standing by idly and accepting the loss of democratic principle and creating social and economic situations that fuel the fascists propaganda.
I’m for doing that in general, but I think doing that now would be pretty dumb. If you want to initiate the procedure you better make sure your case is air tight, everything else would be a desaster. Only some regional organizations have been designated extremist so far and some only recently. So a lot of the gathering of evidence has started and surely there will be more to come.
How long should they keep waiting? Until the AfD has won the election and Höcke declares himself Führer? It would be a tiny bit too late by then.
Yes, because doing it right now or waiting until it’s entirely too late are the only two options. Not sure what that post is trying to accomplish.
@Localhorst86@feddit.de commented a part of aspeak of the high ranking party member Alice Weidel here.
It is classic Nazi rhetoric and uses the same scapegoat that Anders Breivik used to justify the mass murder of more than 70 teenagers in Norway.
Also if it would be ruled that the party in its entirety does not justify a ban yet, but its local branches that do, would get banned, that would effectively destroy them too. Also other measures that could be deemed appropriate, like blocking their funds, banning various associated organizations etc. would all help.
Meanwhile i dont think there is anyone, who likes their fascist ideology, but doesnt vote for them on the basis of uncertainty, about their democratic legitimation. Nobody that follows fascist ideology cares about democratic values or the constitution.
It’s awful, but I’m not sure how exactly you think that would factor in or be relevant in a possible court case. I’m fairly certain the bar of evidence is a bit higher than “they share talking points with other Nazis”.
Because those talking points revolve around the idea of an ethnically homogenous Europe/Nation that is in davger of being “conquered” by inferior races that have to be deported or murdered to prevent this alleged conquest.
It is genocidal ideology and as such is both in clear violation to the constitution and a danger to the democratic order.
The point is that their ideology gives way to murderous violence.
While that’s a common talking point on the right, that’s not even what the statement is saying. The only ones who are clearly villified in it are the people in power and they’re even brandished as supposedly “unconstitutional” (implying the Afd is on the side of the constitution).
It’s still complete hogwash of course and pure conspiracy thinking that is gross and detestable in several different ways.
I don’t disagree. My point is only that just saying/claiming that by itself isn’t going to hold up in court. If it were, Weidel would have long been sued and found guilty of “Volksverhetzung” for statements like that. But these people, at least the more cunning ones, know how to couch their hate in words that generate some degree of plausible deniability and let their followers fill out the blanks.
The AfD also made statements of “well temperated cruelty” against the people they deem undesireable. In combination with these and many more statements made by high ranking AfD members there is no plausible deniability left.
Well, that certainly is a much better and more comprehensive point. It’s also just a claim of course and personally I don’t have a good enough overview of all the statements made, their relations etc to meaningfully judge that.
You’re free to expand on that point in more detail of course. Other than that, I can’t meaningfull contribute much here at this point.
If you speak German there is this website, of an activist artist group that wants to initiate the party to be banned too.
https://afd-verbot.de/beweise
There is over 2000 statements by AfD members, high ranking officials and also from official functions, like state or federal party executive committees.
What? They just met with known neo nazis to form a plan to deport even people with german passports.
Who’s “they”? The afd related person sitting most closely to the Afd leadership was “let go” from his position in response to the revelations. And all of them claim they were there in private capacity.
Without further evidence that is hardly worth all that much in front of a court.
Yeah of course he was let go, because of the media coverage. Otherwise nothing wouldn’t have happened.
They are not that dumb to attend something like this in person. There were other elected AfD Officials present Also “private capacity” is a lame excuse that doesn’t fool nobody
Yes, they aren’t dumb enough to attend it in person precisely to avoid it falling back on them in a court of law. That’s my whole point. Everybody with half a brain can still see what’s going on of course.