This choice about stripping him or due process or not was made before our time. The 14th amendment says “… engaged in insurrection.” It does not say found guilty of or after a trial. The bar isn’t has lofty as you’re making it seem and it’s been there since 1868, so I’m not sure why it’s suddenly concerning to you.
How did Trump “engage in insurrection” though? He said some firey stuff to a rally, then didn’t stop it when it was happening, but that’s all I know about.
Prior to the election, Donald Trump incited the Proud Boys specifically and other militant groups to insurrection with his ‘stand back and stand by’ comments. These were taken by many observers and the Proud Boys themselves as calls to seditious conspiracy. Members of the Proud Boys then planned the 6 January attack, including planting bombs around Washington DC, and were involved in the attack on the Capitol. Many have been convicted of this conspiracy, so there’s no legal question as to whether it happened. I don’t know if incitement to an insurrection counts as insurrection in and of itself. It might do, but I’m not a lawyer.
Having lost the election, Trump knowingly engaged in a conspiracy to undermine a free and fair election, which he knew he had lost, in order to keep himself in power. Some aspects of that conspiracy have gone to trial and defendants have been found guilty. So, there remain some legal questions as to the extent of the conspiracy, but it is quite clear that people involved broke the law in the pursuit of the conspiracy. The conspiracy constitutes an attempted insurrection in itself.
When his conspiracy failed, he then incited a violent attempt to overthrow the election (the ‘fiery stuff to a rally’) and allowed it to continue as people were violently attacked. This also constitutes an attempted insurrection.
He gave aid and comfort to the insurrectionists by delaying sending in additional police, by calling them good people while they were beating cops to death, by targeting Mike Pence with his rhetoric while the capitol is being stormed, by telling them he loved them, by telling them he’ll pardon them if re-elected. This played out in real time, on TV and on Twitter. These facts are not in dispute by any objective observer.
Now re-read the 14th amendment. Might also be a good idea to read the Jan 6 Commission report.
I live in Australia, and even I saw what was happening in the buildup.
Months before he was already starting with rhetoric claiming the election was rigged and it was blatantly obvious he was planning to try to overthrow the election
it’s probably worth noting that even the court whose verdict this overturned agreed with the basic premise that Trump engaged in conduct that constitutes an insurrection–their ruling was merely that, on a technicality, he did not qualify as an officer of the United States (a legal term with a specific, vague meaning in the Constitution). there really is not a dispute that what he did was unlawful conduct, only whether that carries the penalty in question (being unable to legally run for office in a number of states)
I mentioned in another comment but I think conviction should be the bar. During reconstruction, we bypassed due process on this because it obviously applied to anybody holding office in one of the seceding states. Now that we’re in territory the amendment wasn’t directly written for, it’s appropriate to review the interpretation.
One of the arguments of the defense was that the specific wording of the amendment meant it didn’t apply to the President. If we go with the specific wording of the amendment, we get pretty far from the intended effect of the amendment. The court agreed that the amendment applied to the president despite some discrepancies, but disagreed on whether due process would be violated by limiting the ballot.
I disagree. The language obviously applies to the president and that take you’re citing essentially says “yes the president can attempt a coup it’s fine” which is just nuts. If you want to move the bar to conviction you need an amendment.
The take is nuts. The amendment clearly applies to all state and federal politicians, judges, and beurocracts. It seems silly that it wouldn’t apply to the highest position as well, even if a literal interpretation wouldn’t include the president. The court agreed with that interpretation.
During the civil war, the president was Lincoln. Obviously he’s not involved in insurrection. As a result, the amendment didn’t clearly include the president. After the civil war, the government officials of the Confederacy was a matter of public record. So you obviously didn’t require them all to stand trial before barring them from office. The amendment was written to keep confederate officials from regaining power. It was general enough to include any insurrection. Now we’re in territory the amendment wasn’t directly written for so it makes sense to interpret it with the original intent in mind. The standard for insurrection isn’t clearly defined so the courts are exercising their ability to interpret it. If they didn’t have this ability, any gun control legislation would require an amendment.
In all of the indictments Trump has received relating to the election, he hasn’t been indicted for insurrection. Which tells me the prosecutors don’t feel they can prove it in a criminal court. I believe even Trump is innocent until proven guilty. Rule of law should trump political ideals.
You’re still not acknowledging the fact that the amendment doesn’t say if you’re convicted in a court of law, which we’ve seen is too slow anyway, it says if you engaged in insurrection. Which has nothing to do with being convicted especially when anyone that is reasonable can see the goal of J6 was to keep Trump in power. You cannot tolerate that behavior and keep a republic. I’m not saying to toss Trump in jail I’m just saying he shouldn’t be allowed to hold office because he clearly meets the standard set in the constitution by the voters.
This choice about stripping him or due process or not was made before our time. The 14th amendment says “… engaged in insurrection.” It does not say found guilty of or after a trial. The bar isn’t has lofty as you’re making it seem and it’s been there since 1868, so I’m not sure why it’s suddenly concerning to you.
How did Trump “engage in insurrection” though? He said some firey stuff to a rally, then didn’t stop it when it was happening, but that’s all I know about.
Prior to the election, Donald Trump incited the Proud Boys specifically and other militant groups to insurrection with his ‘stand back and stand by’ comments. These were taken by many observers and the Proud Boys themselves as calls to seditious conspiracy. Members of the Proud Boys then planned the 6 January attack, including planting bombs around Washington DC, and were involved in the attack on the Capitol. Many have been convicted of this conspiracy, so there’s no legal question as to whether it happened. I don’t know if incitement to an insurrection counts as insurrection in and of itself. It might do, but I’m not a lawyer.
Having lost the election, Trump knowingly engaged in a conspiracy to undermine a free and fair election, which he knew he had lost, in order to keep himself in power. Some aspects of that conspiracy have gone to trial and defendants have been found guilty. So, there remain some legal questions as to the extent of the conspiracy, but it is quite clear that people involved broke the law in the pursuit of the conspiracy. The conspiracy constitutes an attempted insurrection in itself.
When his conspiracy failed, he then incited a violent attempt to overthrow the election (the ‘fiery stuff to a rally’) and allowed it to continue as people were violently attacked. This also constitutes an attempted insurrection.
He gave aid and comfort to the insurrectionists by delaying sending in additional police, by calling them good people while they were beating cops to death, by targeting Mike Pence with his rhetoric while the capitol is being stormed, by telling them he loved them, by telling them he’ll pardon them if re-elected. This played out in real time, on TV and on Twitter. These facts are not in dispute by any objective observer.
Now re-read the 14th amendment. Might also be a good idea to read the Jan 6 Commission report.
Pretty fucking cut and dry.
It was just a prank, bro! Chill!
/s
I live in Australia, and even I saw what was happening in the buildup.
Months before he was already starting with rhetoric claiming the election was rigged and it was blatantly obvious he was planning to try to overthrow the election
it’s probably worth noting that even the court whose verdict this overturned agreed with the basic premise that Trump engaged in conduct that constitutes an insurrection–their ruling was merely that, on a technicality, he did not qualify as an officer of the United States (a legal term with a specific, vague meaning in the Constitution). there really is not a dispute that what he did was unlawful conduct, only whether that carries the penalty in question (being unable to legally run for office in a number of states)
Read Seth Abramson.
I mentioned in another comment but I think conviction should be the bar. During reconstruction, we bypassed due process on this because it obviously applied to anybody holding office in one of the seceding states. Now that we’re in territory the amendment wasn’t directly written for, it’s appropriate to review the interpretation.
One of the arguments of the defense was that the specific wording of the amendment meant it didn’t apply to the President. If we go with the specific wording of the amendment, we get pretty far from the intended effect of the amendment. The court agreed that the amendment applied to the president despite some discrepancies, but disagreed on whether due process would be violated by limiting the ballot.
I disagree. The language obviously applies to the president and that take you’re citing essentially says “yes the president can attempt a coup it’s fine” which is just nuts. If you want to move the bar to conviction you need an amendment.
The take is nuts. The amendment clearly applies to all state and federal politicians, judges, and beurocracts. It seems silly that it wouldn’t apply to the highest position as well, even if a literal interpretation wouldn’t include the president. The court agreed with that interpretation.
During the civil war, the president was Lincoln. Obviously he’s not involved in insurrection. As a result, the amendment didn’t clearly include the president. After the civil war, the government officials of the Confederacy was a matter of public record. So you obviously didn’t require them all to stand trial before barring them from office. The amendment was written to keep confederate officials from regaining power. It was general enough to include any insurrection. Now we’re in territory the amendment wasn’t directly written for so it makes sense to interpret it with the original intent in mind. The standard for insurrection isn’t clearly defined so the courts are exercising their ability to interpret it. If they didn’t have this ability, any gun control legislation would require an amendment.
In all of the indictments Trump has received relating to the election, he hasn’t been indicted for insurrection. Which tells me the prosecutors don’t feel they can prove it in a criminal court. I believe even Trump is innocent until proven guilty. Rule of law should trump political ideals.
You’re still not acknowledging the fact that the amendment doesn’t say if you’re convicted in a court of law, which we’ve seen is too slow anyway, it says if you engaged in insurrection. Which has nothing to do with being convicted especially when anyone that is reasonable can see the goal of J6 was to keep Trump in power. You cannot tolerate that behavior and keep a republic. I’m not saying to toss Trump in jail I’m just saying he shouldn’t be allowed to hold office because he clearly meets the standard set in the constitution by the voters.