The United States charged four members of the Russian military with war crimes on Wednesday for the abduction and torture of an American citizen in Ukraine.
Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in “what about…?”) denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation. From a logical and argumentative point of view it is considered a variant of the tu-quoque pattern (Latin ‘you too’, term for a counter-accusation), which is a subtype of the ad-hominem argument. … the tactic was “an old Soviet trick”. … “Kremlinologists of recent years call this ‘whataboutism’ because the Kremlin’s various mouthpieces deployed the technique so exhaustively against the U.S.” … Russian whataboutism was “part of the national psyche”. … “Moscow’s geopolitical whataboutism skills are unmatched”
It’s so prevalent in Russian propaganda, an almost Pavlovian response any time Russia’s criticised, that anyone still using it when Russia comes up, is either an idiot or pro-Russian.
It’s not whataboutism. It’s pointing out that since the US doesn’t respect international criminal courts, then they don’t really have a moral standing to try and hold Russians accountable in them.
It’s not whataboutism … There’s a reason we have the word hypocrisy.
It literally is. Wikipedia:
Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in “what about…?”) denotes in a pejorative sense a procedure in which a critical question or argument is not answered or discussed, but retorted with a critical counter-question which expresses a counter-accusation. From a logical and argumentative point of view it is considered a variant of the tu-quoque pattern (Latin ‘you too’, term for a counter-accusation), which is a subtype of the ad-hominem argument. … The communication intent is often to distract from the content of a topic (red herring). The goal may also be to question the justification for criticism and the legitimacy, integrity, and fairness of the critic, which can take on the character of discrediting the criticism, which may or may not be justified. Common accusations include double standards, and hypocrisy
Yes, people can claim they are calling out hypocrisy to justify actually whattaboutism, but that doesn’t automatically mean any claim of hypocrisy = whataboutism.
The key line from your own quote is.
which can take on the character of discrediting the criticism, which may or may not be justified
Fair point but that just raises the obvious point that Americans would never recognise the authority of a foreign court, even of their allies (like the UK for example) so do they really expect Russia to respect their ruling?
You may not have expressively said that, but literally in every post or news article about Russian war crimes, there’s always at least one person pointing at NATO and in particular US war crimes.
No doubt did that happen, yet you don’t see Russian state attorneys trying the US in court. And they can, international criminal law can be ruled in in any country of the world. Now why don’t they or the Chinese do it? For one, because they don’t want to poke the US too much. But if that isn’t the case, the only explanation left is that they don’t want to be open to the possible repercussions of being held to whataboutism themselves.
No why does it happen in the US or NATO countries? Simply because the executive power holds very little sway on the legal proceedings of the attorney General offices, at least when compared to Authotarian countries such as Russia or China.
Honestly my point isn’t “but America war crimes too!!!” Which would probably be fair to call whattaboutism, but pointing out that if americ adoesnt recognise other countries courts or international courts, then why should they expect Russia to care about what their courts say?
Given how the first reaction of Russia apologists, is so often whataboutism, so much so that the wikipedia article on whataboutism literally mentions it being part of the Russian psyche, anyone who’s first reaction to an article on Russian war crimes, is “what about America?” is pathetic.
Oh, and I notice you doubled down, edited your comment above and decided to add some “What About Ukraine?” and accused people here of being hypocrites too. Didn’t work the first time? Try it again.
Please understand. I’m not saying you’re a Russian troll. People who inadvertently propagandize without realizing it are often called useful idiots. But I’m not calling you a useful idiot either. I don’t think anyone would conceivably think your comment was useful.
Jesus christ dude I can practically smell the smugness through the screen. I get you you like to feel like you’re oh so much smarter than other people, but maybe tone it down a bit?
Even though I fully expected this kind of knee-jerk reactionary given the community I’m posting on, I thought the responses wouldn’t be full on redditor. But unfortunately I was wrong.
‘’… I fully expected this kind of knee-jerk reactionary given the community …‘’
And you are talking about smugness ;-)
Really, people mostly blame others for their own shortcomings and project them onto others.
Talk about hipocrisy :-)
It’s important to self regulate and prosecute wrong doing of your own people, but justice requires accountability to your accusers, those wronged. Ideally, these work in concert.
The point is America does not care about international criminal courts, so they have no business trying to use them for Russian war criminals.
If Russia tried its own soldiers for war crimes, you would rightly think they will probably go easy on them and won’t be a fiar trial with proper justice as it’s motive.
Key-point here being “if”, because Russia would never try their own soldiers. Apart from desertion of course, though I believe they’d rather execute those.
Lmao the hypocrisy. How many US soldiers have been tried for the torture they committed.
e: so when Russia accuses Ukraine of war crimes, you guys take that very seriously right? Because to do otherwise would be whattaboutism, right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Calling out hypocrisy is not the same as whattaboutism.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
More specifically whataboutism.
It’s so prevalent in Russian propaganda, an almost Pavlovian response any time Russia’s criticised, that anyone still using it when Russia comes up, is either an idiot or pro-Russian.
It’s not whataboutism. It’s pointing out that since the US doesn’t respect international criminal courts, then they don’t really have a moral standing to try and hold Russians accountable in them.
There’s a reason we have the word hypocrisy.
It literally is. Wikipedia:
Yes, people can claim they are calling out hypocrisy to justify actually whattaboutism, but that doesn’t automatically mean any claim of hypocrisy = whataboutism.
The key line from your own quote is.
They aren’t trying to hold those 4 Russians accountable in international courts, they’re charging them in American courts
Fair point but that just raises the obvious point that Americans would never recognise the authority of a foreign court, even of their allies (like the UK for example) so do they really expect Russia to respect their ruling?
Cool, so it’s okay to just condone torture then.
The worst bit wasn’t the Russian war crimes. It was the American hypocrisy! /s
I mean I literally never said that, but go ahead and jerk each other off over it.
You may not have expressively said that, but literally in every post or news article about Russian war crimes, there’s always at least one person pointing at NATO and in particular US war crimes.
No doubt did that happen, yet you don’t see Russian state attorneys trying the US in court. And they can, international criminal law can be ruled in in any country of the world. Now why don’t they or the Chinese do it? For one, because they don’t want to poke the US too much. But if that isn’t the case, the only explanation left is that they don’t want to be open to the possible repercussions of being held to whataboutism themselves.
No why does it happen in the US or NATO countries? Simply because the executive power holds very little sway on the legal proceedings of the attorney General offices, at least when compared to Authotarian countries such as Russia or China.
Honestly my point isn’t “but America war crimes too!!!” Which would probably be fair to call whattaboutism, but pointing out that if americ adoesnt recognise other countries courts or international courts, then why should they expect Russia to care about what their courts say?
I literally never said that, but sure, put words in my mouth if that makes you feel better.
Don’t feel too bad, though. Of all the logical fallacies possible, it’s surely the most-fun to say.
I need you to understand that pointing out blatant hypocrisy isn’t actually a logical fallacy, despite what reddit has told you.
Given how the first reaction of Russia apologists, is so often whataboutism, so much so that the wikipedia article on whataboutism literally mentions it being part of the Russian psyche, anyone who’s first reaction to an article on Russian war crimes, is “what about America?” is pathetic.
Oh, and I notice you doubled down, edited your comment above and decided to add some “What About Ukraine?” and accused people here of being hypocrites too. Didn’t work the first time? Try it again.
Please understand. I’m not saying you’re a Russian troll. People who inadvertently propagandize without realizing it are often called useful idiots. But I’m not calling you a useful idiot either. I don’t think anyone would conceivably think your comment was useful.
Jesus christ dude I can practically smell the smugness through the screen. I get you you like to feel like you’re oh so much smarter than other people, but maybe tone it down a bit?
Even though I fully expected this kind of knee-jerk reactionary given the community I’m posting on, I thought the responses wouldn’t be full on redditor. But unfortunately I was wrong.
‘’… I fully expected this kind of knee-jerk reactionary given the community …‘’ And you are talking about smugness ;-) Really, people mostly blame others for their own shortcomings and project them onto others. Talk about hipocrisy :-)
Calling out blatant hypocrisy isn’t a shortcoming.
Not being able to accept valid criticism of the US’ actions because of how kuchen you (rightfully) is a shirt coming.
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idk if that counts: Former Commander of Naval Station Guantanamo Bay Sentenced to Prison US soldier jailed for seven years over murders of Afghan civilians American found guilty of torture in Iraq
It’s important to self regulate and prosecute wrong doing of your own people, but justice requires accountability to your accusers, those wronged. Ideally, these work in concert.
The point is America does not care about international criminal courts, so they have no business trying to use them for Russian war criminals.
If Russia tried its own soldiers for war crimes, you would rightly think they will probably go easy on them and won’t be a fiar trial with proper justice as it’s motive.
Key-point here being “if”, because Russia would never try their own soldiers. Apart from desertion of course, though I believe they’d rather execute those.
Fear point