• Like it or not we are stuck with a two party system. As fucking awful as Biden is, and he is, Biden is the lesser of two evils by far. And that applies to democrats/republicans as a whole.

    Both parties/candidates are to some degree cool with genocide and privatization, but only one of the two stands out as the worst, and the worst by a lot.

    Don’t like it? Vote for local candidates/congressional candidates in primaries that will fix the two party problem. But in the mean time the better presidential option will be anything with a D next to their name.

    • Discoslugs
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      -241 year ago

      I will not vote for the party of genocide supply. Aka the dems.

      Local candidates are not going fix the two party system. That’s a national issue.

      I don’t know the solution, but buying into the Dems bullshit “lesser of Two evils” AGAIN is not it.

      Have fun being the same chump you were 8 years ago.

      • @ilinamorato@lemmy.world
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        241 year ago

        You want to ever vote again? Then take a long, hard look at what each party is trying to do about voting rights. If you want to stop genocide, a Republican in office is the worst-case scenario for you; and there is a non-zero chance that voting against Democrats in 2024 means that 2024 will be our last real election ever, after which the genocide would come across the ocean.

        Think about the worst case scenarios here—in case of a blue wave, the worst case is another four years of lackluster governance and pretending to keep our hands clean of the worst stuff happening in the world, while winking at corporate greed and doing nothing about climate change. Not a great outcome.

        In case of a red wave, we don’t have to guess about the worst case, because Trump is telling us what he’ll do: make anything but Christianity illegal, militarize the borders to turn away refugees, curtail the first amendment, hand Ukraine over to Russia, help Israel glass Palestine, make it harder (impossible if he can manage it) for people to vote against him, try to get an extra four years as penance for what he sees as a “stolen” election, retaliate against anyone trying to hold him accountable for his crimes, roll back environmental protections that will make climate change irreversible, nominate perhaps another SCOTUS justice who’s even more unhinged than the other three he installed, and vague threats of violence toward everyone who isn’t straight and cis. That is all stuff that he has promised to do at his rallies. And all of that isn’t even touching on the financial disaster that his tax policies actually unleashed between 2016-2020, and the regular horror of mass shootings and white supremacy that goes up under every pro-gun president, but Trump in particular. Not a survivable outcome.

        This isn’t a normal election. Giving Trump (or, at this point, any Republican) a chance is off the table. He’s shown us and told us what he’ll do if he gets the White House again. If you want to vote third party to send a message, you have to contend with the possibility that there won’t be anyone left to hear it in 2028. Yes, people’s lives are on the line. So don’t let Republicans have the chance to step across that line.

        • Discoslugs
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          -181 year ago

          Replace evey year you listed with 2012.

          And replace trump with George w Bush.

          These were the same arguments being made by Dems back then. I voted. And we still have genocide supply. The genocide we have now is unacceptable. Just because there is potential for it to get worse don’t mean I should accept they situation we have now.

          Biden cut check to Israel with a smile on his face. So will the republican party and so will future democrats. None of them will be getting my vote.

          You’re a genocide apologist when you vote blue.

          • @ilinamorato@lemmy.world
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            141 year ago

            That’s not what they said in 2012 (a year when Bush wasn’t even on the ballot, by the way). I’ve been alive for ten presidential cycles, and I’ve never seen it this bad before. I’ve never seen a candidate with such blatant disregard for democracy, or voters who are so blithe about tossing away their voting rights.

            But even if they said it then, it doesn’t preclude it from being true now. Things can get worse over time. A threat narrowly defeated in one year doesn’t prevent that threat from gaining power and causing more problems a decade later, and the GOP has undoubtedly gotten worse over the last thirty years.

            Ad hominem nonsense aside, your comment would’ve sounded somewhat reasonable in 1996, but in 2023 I don’t think it is. If you see the danger but run the other way, aren’t you treating the many more lives that would be lost as a result of a second Trump presidency with the same clinical disconnection that the Democrats are treating the Palestinian lives lost with each shipment of arms?

            It’s literally the trolley problem. You want to not be the one pulling the lever. That’s fine. But the point of the trolley problem is that there’s not a morally correct answer. It’s a terrible situation, and there’s no right way to respond; but lambasting others on the internet for their choice is definitely the wrong way.

          • @tooclose104@lemmy.ca
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            101 year ago

            Thinking that abstaining to vote washes your hands of association is not correct. Your abstention counts as a vote for the winning party, whether you like it or not.

            Choosing to continue to participate in the social fabric is supporting the choices made much the same as casting a vote. You’re paying taxes, you’re collecting incentives, you’re participating in the economy, you’re enabling the growth of GDP.

            By your own logic, assuming you’re an American citizen and not just a troll, you’re also a genocide apologist who’s enabling whatever party wins.

            • Discoslugs
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              -71 year ago

              Choosing to continue to participate in the social fabric is supporting the choices made much the same as casting a vote.

              What a crock of shit. I can’t realistically opt out of “the social fabric” I can choose who I vote for. And it won’t be biden or trump.

              Y’all should try it!

              you’re also a genocide apologist who’s enabling whatever party wins.

              You are exactly right…I voted for biden in 2020.

      • I will not vote for the party of genocide supply. Aka the dems.

        They’re both supporting the ongoing genocide. This isn’t helpful for deciding who to vote for.

        Local candidates are not going fix the two party system. That’s a national issue.

        Which is why I specified local/congressional. It’s going to take all levels of government to unfuck us from a two party system.

        I don’t know the solution, but buying into the Dems bullshit “lesser of Two evils” AGAIN is not it.

        Only one of these choices is actively trying to turn our country into a theocratic hell hole.

        The “lesser of two evils” is fucking awful, but it’s true.

        Have fun being the same chump you were 8 years ago.

        If you can’t talk about politics without resorting to personal insults then you must know how weak your argument is.

        • Discoslugs
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          -121 year ago

          They’re both supporting the ongoing genocide. This isn’t helpful for deciding who to vote for.

          You are the one deciding between the two only, not me. I will vote for a candidate that has a platform I can support and nothing else.

          It’s going to take all levels of government to unfuck us from a two party system.

          The dems continue to get elected because of the Two party system. They aren’t going to change it.

          Let me know when it does tho…

          Only one of these choices is actively trying to turn our country into a theocratic hell hole.

          Yes, and the other will happily participate in genocide, be unable to create real change in Any area I care about and then pretend they are the party of moral superiority.

          You vote blue you will still have red on your hands.

          • I will vote for a candidate that has a platform I can support and nothing else.

            And in doing so you’ll waste your vote, allowing the worst possible option (Trump) to get voted in.

            The dems continue to get elected because of the Two party system. They aren’t going to change it.

            Establishment democrats won’t let it happen, but they can’t do shit if they don’t get elected, and actually good candidates get elected instead.

            Which means all levels of government are involved. And this issue needs to be fought in the primaries as well.

            You vote blue you will still have red on your hands.

            There will be red on everyone’s hands no matter what. No matter who we choose, our tax dollars are going to genocide.

            The least we can do, the bare fucking minimum is to reduce the amount of red.

            You’ll have just as much red on your hands as I do. But the difference is that you’re willing to let it be more red.

            • Discoslugs
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              -61 year ago

              Establishment democrats won’t let it happen, but they can’t do shit if they don’t get elected

              So we should vote democrat? Lmao Are you hearing yourself?

              There will be red on everyone’s hands no matter what. No matter who we choose, our tax dollars are going to genocide.

              And people tell me I’m pessimistic.

              Our tax dollars are going to genocide because of the tacid support our politicians get from people like you.

              You are the problem, you are the person who refuses to do anything different.

              This situation didn’t start in 2016, it has been made by decades of people making the same choice you insist everyone make.

              Vote blue or else!

              • So we should vote democrat? Lmao Are you hearing yourself?

                So we should vote for the democrats that aren’t establishment democrats, the ones that will actually fix the situation.

                Our tax dollars are going to genocide because of the tacid support our politicians get from people like you.

                No, it’s because of the two party system.

                You are the problem, you are the person who refuses to do anything different.

                I am saying we need to do something different. Have you not been paying attention?

                • Discoslugs
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                  -21 year ago

                  No, it’s because of the two party system.

                  And thats why i should vote for one of the two parties?

                  I am saying we need to do something different. Have you not been paying attention?

                  I guess im confused. Here i thought you were telling me to vote for the democrats.

                  • And thats why i should vote for one of the two parties?

                    That’s why we’re stuck with 3 options, with only one of them making sense.

                    Here i thought you were telling me to vote for the democrats.

                    I am.

          • @pandacoder@lemmy.world
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            81 year ago

            The GOP also continues to get elected because of the two party system. There’s a much better shot at taking over the Democratic party to force reform through than will ever happen with the GOP. I want to vote third party, but I’m not going to pretend that it’s safe to do so yet at the level of president.

            • Discoslugs
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              -61 year ago

              I want to vote third party, but I’m not going to pretend that it’s safe to do so yet at the level of president.

              You are the problem.

              There’s a much better shot at taking over the Democratic party to force reform through than will ever happen with the GOP.

              It is much more likely that a 3rd party will win, than the democratic party being reformed. Change my mind.

              • And you think 3rd parties solve all of our problems? It’d be even worse. They don’t have any serious political plan, if they did you’d see them investing heavily in local races and trying to get control of Congress before the presidency.

                It’s just a grift to get your money and support. Oh they’ll criticize Democrats plenty for not being harsh on the rich or Republicans, and then they’ll go dine with right wing authoritarians and rich oligarchs who make our CEOs look like socialists.

                • Discoslugs
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                  -31 year ago

                  It’s just a grift to get your money and support.

                  And the dems and repubs are doing what with our money and support?

                  Oh that’s right genocide.

                  Hmmmmmmmm

          • @Sparlock@lemmy.world
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            31 year ago

            The presidential race is the LAST place you should be making your stand. It’s like you want to skip all the early levels of the game (local and state elections) and jump straight to the final boss without realising you won’t win this game by doing that.

              • @Sparlock@lemmy.world
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                21 year ago

                So I was right. You don’t actually want to win the game, you just want to take your ball and go home because your fee fees are hurt.

                Way to be a loser.

                • Discoslugs
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                  -11 year ago

                  Oh yeah my fee fees are hurting alright. Especially after watching all those tiny little bodies get pulled from the rubble in gaza.

                  • If Trump wins, there’s going to be a lot more of that than there already is. Are you wearing their blood for show, or do you actually care about this infants? If you do care, there’s a very easy way to make sure as few of them die as possible.

                    Vote Biden. If you don’t, you’re quite literally fine with even more infants dying because your idealism is apparently more important than them.

      • @Kage520@lemmy.world
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        81 year ago

        You’ve been attacking the Dems for this, but why do you believe the Republicans will do differently? Or were you talking about independent?

        • Discoslugs
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          -81 year ago

          I don’t believe repubs will be better. I just consider them two parts of a single flawed system.

          By voting for either of them you support both parties.

          • @IdleSheep@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            1 year ago

            Not sure if this is enlightened centrism or not but avoiding voting all together doesn’t solve anything either because one of the 2 will be elected regardless.

            In the US there are only 2 possible winners, a democrat or a republican. Not voting or voting 3rd party is the same as throwing your vote in the trash because of the way the US system works.

            So your choice if you want to change something is to vote for the one that has the highest chance of working towards your goals, and that is a democrat, even if almost everything they currently do is awful. Because if a republican wins, your concerns aren’t even going to get into ear reach of them.

            Either participate and vote to try to change something or accept that you’re discarding your already limited political power by taking this moral stance, and in the process also making the problems you’re concerned about worse.

            • Discoslugs
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              -21 year ago

              because one of the 2 will be elected regardless

              What if all the people chanting better than trump voted independent?

              What if you guys did something other than the same thing we always do?

              Either participate and vote to try to change something or accept that you’re discarding your already limited political power by taking this moral stance, and in the process also making the problems you’re concerned about worse.

              Voting blue is not voting for change its voting for “not worse”. And even then it will still get worse under dems You’re defending this system by continuing to buy into it.

              I voted blue every time I voted, and we still have genocide supply. Its unacceptable, and thus I will not accept it.

              Have fun being a genocide apologist.

              • @piecat@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Team A wins: genocide Team B wins: genocide

                Vote A, B, or neither?

                Vote A: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.

                Vote B: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.

                Vote neither: Team A or B wins. Still genocide.

                By not voting, or voting third party, the outcome is still genocide. You’re still a part of the system.

                By telling us how bad it is to vote because of this, you’re ignoring every other issue. Some of them human rights.

                Congrats, you’re making the USA a worse place.

              • @IdleSheep@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                1 year ago

                Please understand that in a capitalistic hell like the US only the candidates with a lot of money and influence have a chance. No 3rd party has even a remote chance of reaching enough people to secure the votes you would need to tip the scales.

                “what if all these people voted x” is a fun theory to have in your head but it will never materialize because the US system in its current form is designed to create voter apathy and politically disenfranchise people, making such goals impossible.

                Like someone said above, make changes at a local level so you can start reforming the system, but by not participating you’re literally just making it worse for everyone. Stop letting perfection be the enemy of good.

                Also, as if genocide is the only issue that matters here. Republicans are trying to violate every human right possible. If that isn’t enough to move you I don’t know what is.

                And if I’m a genocide apologist by your logic then so are you for not voting while knowing that one of the 2 genocide apologists will be chosen. Have fun sleeping at night.

                • Discoslugs
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                  -11 year ago

                  what if all these people voted x" is a fun theory to have in your head but it will never materialize because the US system

                  I want you to realize this. YOU are the reason more people dont vote for 3rd party. You are here actively telling people that the only valid vote is for dems. That doing anything else is throwing your vote away. YOU are the problem.

                  They were saying this same thing when Al Gore was running against George bush in the 2000 Presidential race. Where has it gotten us?

                  It has led us here. where the dems are cutting checks for genocide.

                  It is completely unacceptable. You are a genocide apologist becuase you sit here acknowledging how flawed the system is while still demanding that people play into it.

                  Its ridiculous.

                  You say that the American system is flawed, and give many examples but then you tell me to vote for the same party that has either been wholly complicit in the corruption of the american system or so powerless too stop Republicans from doing so!

                  Either way a vote for dems is throwing your vote away. You will either elect an existing genocider or a new one!

                  Also, as if genocide is the only issue that matters here.

                  I’m also mad about the bait-&-switch with student loans cancellation. And a lot of other things. The only reason you to vote for biden is not trump. And thats fucking stupid.

                  not voting while knowing that one of the 2 genocide apologists will be chosen

                  Is this supposed to make me want to participate? It just shows how much we should all be voting 3rd.

      • @ghostdoggtv@lemmy.world
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        71 year ago

        The problem with the trump administration is that people picked him thinking they were making the same exact decision you’re making, and look where it took us.

      • @pandacoder@lemmy.world
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        61 year ago

        Trump would dump multiple times the amount of money Biden is into Israel, and he’d pivot us to backing Russia in the extermination of Ukraine. Assuming he doesn’t start another genocide himself, he will absolutely make the situation worse.

        Biden may have no shame, but Trump is constantly talking about doing even worse. Pretending risking him in office would be better is a dangerous delusion.

        • Discoslugs
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          -81 year ago

          I have voted in every major election since I was 18.

          That includes 4 Presidential, and many local ones.

          They have been playing the same “lesser of two evils” card since George w. Bush. And probably before.

          You’re a chump for thinking things will change by playing into the same trap.

          • @dezmd@lemmy.world
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            41 year ago

            This will be my 7th Presidential, and I have voted in every eligible local/state election.

            You offer harsh criticism but no actual solutions, like you’re still 20 years old and thinking the world will change if you just talk about it enough.

            Republicans will always lie cheat and steal with zero concern for ethics or scrupulous moral considerations when it comes to undermining principles of democracy if it increases their wealth and power projections. Always.

            Democrats will also do that, sometimes, but not always. Don’t vote for evil, but don’t let guaranteed evil ever get unfettered control of a flawed constitutional system built where evil cannot be stopped other than by extreme means involving violence and bloodshed. See slavery and what we had to go thru to ultimately eliminate it.

            These two groups have a stranglehold on our politics and no amount of bullshitting is going to work around it. If people weren’t smart enough to pick Sanders over Clinton in 2016, if people were’nt cognizant enough of the idea behind not supporting Clinton in the primary simply based on not allowing a few ‘royal’ styled families to maintain a grasp on the reigns of power, if We the People aren’t rioting in the streets to maintain an open, independent, liberal democracy, why would you expect people be smart enough to engage a third party candidate?

            You have to plan ahead instead of yelling about it the last goddamn minute (in terms of election timing, this is the last minute) if you ever plan to side step D vs R, you have to look ahead 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 years and laser focus on all elections on all positions including packing the court with ethical judges that aren’t beholden to ludicrous legal think tank fronts acting as formal legal society clubs. But nobody has time for that much less the will to create a set of policies that will garner support of a large enough swath of voters that it could affect the sweeping change you want so bad (and yes, that we all probably need).

            At this point, unfortunately, you’re a chump for thinking things will change by playing into the same trap of voting third party against the two parties holding all the cards.

            • Discoslugs
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              -11 year ago

              like you’re still 20 years old and thinking the world will change if you just talk about it enough.

              Ahh yes there it is. I’m an angry youngster.

              You have to plan ahead instead of yelling about it the last goddamn minute (in terms of election timing, this is the last minute) if you ever plan to side step D vs R, you have to look ahead 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 years

              What if 10 12 years ago we all started voting independent? I think that would have a big impact.

              In fact I think if we did that work years ago, we would have a healthy 3rd party candidate now.

              But instead we keep doing the same things we always do… Vote blue or else!!!

              • @dezmd@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Ahh yes there it is. I’m an angry youngster.

                Once again you offer only complaints without offering solutions, continuing to act like like an inexperienced 20 year old that thinks yelling equates the change.

                Propose actionable solutions rather than just pontificating bullshit.

          • @samus12345@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            The greater of two evils won in 2016. If you saw no difference between the Trump and Biden presidency, you’re a privileged person with the luxury to worry about genocide in another country more than what will happen to you.

            • Discoslugs
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              -21 year ago

              I am a privelged person, I don’t live in a country being genocided rn. And apparently so are you.

              To me It doesn’t matter if its happening in another country. I personally feel You are a coward to down play this genocide simply because its not happening in your back yard.

              You got more immediate problems? Ok. Trump is gonna do bad shit? Almost certainly.

              But Biden is not the solution to the problems in america. Dems will not bring about real change. They will only allow for a future republican candidate, with better PR, to take hold.

              They are worthless. And your support of them only amounts to the same flawed choice, and the same outcomes already have.

              Finally answer me this:What if everyone telling me too vote lesser of two evils, voted independent?

              • @samus12345@lemmy.world
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                01 year ago

                You are a coward to down play this genocide simply because its not happening in your back yard.

                That’s not what I’m saying. All genocide is horrible and should not exist regardless of location. What I am saying is that the genocide will happen regardless of who you vote for, which makes it a foolish thing to base your vote on rather than things that will be different.

                What if everyone telling me to vote lesser of two evils, voted independent?

                Then the independent would still lose, by a very large margin, because 99%+ of the voting population has never communicated with you or even knows you exist.

                As for “What if a majority of voters voted Independent?” Might as well ask “What if people stopped being hateful bigots?” It will never happen, and pretending it will rather than working with what’s within realistic possibility will accomplish even less.

                • Discoslugs
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                  21 year ago

                  Then the independent would still lose, by a very large margin, because 99%+ of the voting population has never communicated with you or even knows you exist.

                  I’m not the guy who came up with voting for 3rd party. Lmao. Wtf.

                  As for “What if a majority of voters voted Independent?” Might as well ask “What if people stopped being hateful bigots?”

                  OK. But you are the person who is refusing to vote any other way. People won’t vote 3rd party because they think like YOU.

                  You are the problem. In this scenario you would be the hateful bigot who refuse to change…

          • @pahlimur@lemmy.world
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            11 year ago

            It’s because of people like you letting them get away with being the lesser of the evils. If Dems were an overwhelming majority they couldn’t campaign on how close they are to losing everything.

            I was a Republican and have voted the same number of times you have. Republicans fucking joke about people like you allowing them to win.

            • Discoslugs
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              11 year ago

              Let me get this straight:

              I’m letting the dems get away with becoming the lesser of Two evils by not supporting them…And you aren’t doing that by voting for them? That sounds like BS to mee.

              If Dems were an overwhelming majority

              They had both houses and the president in 2020 and didn’t do shit.

              We still have genocide supply… We still have campaign fiance corruption and a million prblemz they didn’t do shit.

              • If Dems were an overwhelming majority

                They had both houses and the president in 2020 and didn’t do shit.

                And thank you for confirming you don’t know what you’re talking about. Those two aren’t mutually exclusive.