It’s really a complicated issue. They broke the law. They knew they were breaking the law. As far as democracy goes, there is a legal path for them to take but it is a much higher bar (similar to the bar of adding an amendment to the constitution). They chose not to. They were warned. Now they are being held accountable. That being said, the heavy hand that the national government used also made things worse.
This amnesty isn’t for the average separatist. It is for the politicians who broke constitutional laws. I live in another region of Spain and hold no strong feelings about the amnesty either way. My biggest worry is how the whole thing plays out and if it gives vox(super right wing party) a boost within the national politics. We are a literally just like 3 parliamentary seats from having them hold massive sway over the government here.
Honestly this whole country, Catalunya included, would be better off if all that shit hadn’t happened. For them it would’ve been worse than Brexit. Regardless of what they think. And once it happened, it certainly gave a rallying cry for Vox and their ultranationalism.
I also really want this current government to stay in so they can maybe spend another four years trying to fix that bullshit gag law that they failed to do this term. I am not a fan of PP and I cannot imagine the damage they will do when they are held hostage by Vox.
No, it’s not a complicated issue. If the constitution/laws don’t allow to hold a referendum about it without the uninvolved party having to allow it first, then they’re just shit laws in opposition to basic principles of democracy.
So basically any time a group of politicians decide they don’t like the laws then they don’t have to follow them and can do whatever they want? Big Trump supporter huh?
And there is an entire legal process for which those politicians could have had a legal referendum. They just decided that was too hard.
It is a complicated issue, because forming a functioning society is a complicated process. And Catalunya has entered into agreements from which they can’t just act like little Timmy on the playground and say it didn’t count because it was reverse day when he said it.
And again. I don’t have strong feelings about the amnesty other than the external problems it could cause like an ultra right government coming into power next election. I don’t even have major feelings about whether they should be allowed to leave. I do think it would be disastrous for them. They would essentially become a landlocked country, outside of the EU, lose freedom of movement to anywhere but Andorra probably, just holding the illegal referendum caused them to lose so much business and for what purpose?
This isn’t the same as the issues in Basque country that predated the EU. It isn’t Ireland. This is much closer to Brexit where a minority of politicians are pushing an ideology of Us vs Them. And I’m aware that there are legitimate complaints that Catalunya has. But there are much easier and more practical ways of trying to fix those complaints.
What’s happening here is more similar to Milton county Georgia begging to be annexed by Fulton county (Atlanta) when they were broke, but now that things are good they want to leave and no longer be part of a system that has certainly benefitted them in many ways.
You are being an ideologue. You should give pragmatism a try.
So basically any time a group of politicians decide they don’t like the laws then they don’t have to follow them and can do whatever they want? Big Trump supporter huh?
I didn’t say anything like that and I don’t think it’s that hard to get my point. There’s a difference between any random law and laws that obstruct democratic self-determination or violate human rights. I’ll engage with the rest of your comment if you take back your dumb strawmanning and calling me a Trump supporter for no good reason. I think any discussion should be based on a basic commitment to sincerity.
It’s really a complicated issue. They broke the law. They knew they were breaking the law. As far as democracy goes, there is a legal path for them to take but it is a much higher bar (similar to the bar of adding an amendment to the constitution). They chose not to. They were warned. Now they are being held accountable. That being said, the heavy hand that the national government used also made things worse.
This amnesty isn’t for the average separatist. It is for the politicians who broke constitutional laws. I live in another region of Spain and hold no strong feelings about the amnesty either way. My biggest worry is how the whole thing plays out and if it gives vox(super right wing party) a boost within the national politics. We are a literally just like 3 parliamentary seats from having them hold massive sway over the government here.
Honestly this whole country, Catalunya included, would be better off if all that shit hadn’t happened. For them it would’ve been worse than Brexit. Regardless of what they think. And once it happened, it certainly gave a rallying cry for Vox and their ultranationalism.
I also really want this current government to stay in so they can maybe spend another four years trying to fix that bullshit gag law that they failed to do this term. I am not a fan of PP and I cannot imagine the damage they will do when they are held hostage by Vox.
No, it’s not a complicated issue. If the constitution/laws don’t allow to hold a referendum about it without the uninvolved party having to allow it first, then they’re just shit laws in opposition to basic principles of democracy.
So basically any time a group of politicians decide they don’t like the laws then they don’t have to follow them and can do whatever they want? Big Trump supporter huh?
And there is an entire legal process for which those politicians could have had a legal referendum. They just decided that was too hard.
It is a complicated issue, because forming a functioning society is a complicated process. And Catalunya has entered into agreements from which they can’t just act like little Timmy on the playground and say it didn’t count because it was reverse day when he said it.
And again. I don’t have strong feelings about the amnesty other than the external problems it could cause like an ultra right government coming into power next election. I don’t even have major feelings about whether they should be allowed to leave. I do think it would be disastrous for them. They would essentially become a landlocked country, outside of the EU, lose freedom of movement to anywhere but Andorra probably, just holding the illegal referendum caused them to lose so much business and for what purpose?
This isn’t the same as the issues in Basque country that predated the EU. It isn’t Ireland. This is much closer to Brexit where a minority of politicians are pushing an ideology of Us vs Them. And I’m aware that there are legitimate complaints that Catalunya has. But there are much easier and more practical ways of trying to fix those complaints.
What’s happening here is more similar to Milton county Georgia begging to be annexed by Fulton county (Atlanta) when they were broke, but now that things are good they want to leave and no longer be part of a system that has certainly benefitted them in many ways.
You are being an ideologue. You should give pragmatism a try.
I didn’t say anything like that and I don’t think it’s that hard to get my point. There’s a difference between any random law and laws that obstruct democratic self-determination or violate human rights. I’ll engage with the rest of your comment if you take back your dumb strawmanning and calling me a Trump supporter for no good reason. I think any discussion should be based on a basic commitment to sincerity.