I think Israel is losing the information war on this recent crisis. They’re trying to defend the indefensible. There’s no way to spin “we dropped a bomb on a refugee camp” into something acceptable. And people are seeing the bullshit for what it is.
They really screwed the pooch on this one from a messaging stance. Stepping back from the emotions and the war crimes and just looking at their propaganda, it’s just being handled sloppily. Propaganda has always been Israel’s superpower, and they’re doing a terrible job of it.
You don’t defend the bombing of a refugee camp by saying “There may have been tunnels or infrastructure.”
At this point you just lie and say you know there were military objectives. Or pull a play from the US and count the bodies and claim that any body of a “military-age male” was a combatant.
Admitting on international television that you knowingly and intentionally bombed a bunch of civilians you absolutely knew you were killing just in case there might be bad guys among them is a bad look.
Propaganda has always been Israel’s superpower, and they’re doing a terrible job of it.
They’re using the exact same kind of messaging they’re using internally to their own right-wing and scared centre, “tough guys making hard decisions to keep you safe” kind of stuff. To people who went on school trips to Auschwitz with armed Israeli security – not because visiting Poland wouldn’t be safe, but out of a mixture of security theatre and propaganda. It just doesn’t work if you aren’t part of that particular information bubble. They seem to have forgotten that it doesn’t even work on the Israeli left wing so why should it work on random people from elsewhere.
Also stunts like the yellow stars in the security council. Come the fuck on crocodile-teared self-victimisation can’t possibly be more blatant, and it’s fucking disgusting how they trivialise the Holocaust with that shit.
I think it’s a combination of pushing boundaries of tactics that were previously working well enough for them and not realising that over time, more and more people become aware that Israel is a present day colonial country still doing some of the evil shit we’re not proud of our own countries for doing in the past. And people are more willing to challenge the anti-semitism accusations because there’s a huge difference between hating people for existing and hating what an authoritarian power is doing to a population it hates for not quietly letting them take more and more of their land.
Not to mention I don’t think the response to 9/11 was a good one either and evoking that seems to be one of the prongs of their propaganda attack. There’s a comment a bit higher up doing that exactly, but it’s kinda funny because in the first paragraph it sounds like it’s making a 9/11 reference ironically, but then the 2nd paragraph shows it was serious.
At this point you just lie and say you know there were military objectives. Or pull a play from the US and count the bodies and claim that any body of a “military-age male” was a combatant.
One of them tried that same claim in an interview yesterday. Not Hecht, but an older guy - he said, seeing the video of the cleanup effort (men sorting through rubble), “a lot of those look like military age males”.
They’ve been doing that for years. They shot Shireen Abu Akleh, showed up at her funeral to beat the shit out of the people carrying her coffin, and then just recently bulldozed the memorial to her.
they might be losing the information war but they’ll always have the support of the governments of the english speaking world and they don’t actually need to win the information war. they’re winning the kill-the-other-guys war and no one who can do anything about it wants to.
Even Western governments are getting uncomfortable about this. I think Israel overestimates just how far they can go before the West starts to consider pulling their support.
LoL. Western governments still aren’t even saying “please stop” let alone pulling the billions in funding that’s being used to do this.
I expect Israel just out and out kill everyone is Gaza this time and take the land thinking it will end this problem forever. I expect in 10 years they’ll figure out they failed when another attack happens.
How will that be a failure? They’ll have finished the ethnic cleansing of the region and added more land. Another terrorist attack that kills a few people will just give them another casus belli to do another genocide somewhere else, probably in the west bank next.
Even if the West “starts to consider” maybe not wholeheartedly backing Israel’s brutal actions, it will be some time before they do anything about it, if they ever do. Until then Israel will continue killing.
They are only winning if killing civilians is winning. It isn’t, France killed tens of thousands of Algerians before being promptly defeated and expelled. Same thing happened in Vietnam. The Palestinian resistance is inflicting huge losses in the Israeli army. Scores of destroyed tanks and dead israeli soldiers every day
They will literally want a blood price measured in tens of thousands of bodies. At the funeral of mass murderer Baruch Goldstein a Rabby famously said “one million Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail”
I’m not downplaying the deaths of 10,000 people or that 30,000 have been injured. There are over a million displaced and over 2 million Palestinians live in Gaza, more in the West Bank and more in the surrounding countries.
Israel cannot win this. It is impossible to accomplish their genocide. That’s after weeks of bombing spending who knows how much on munitions. Logistically it’s impossible.
They can’t genocide the entire Palestinian people and they are not going to be able to expel the gazans. They think that murdering thousands will deter Palestinians from resisting, but that’s hugely incorrect. We can, as colonized people have shown before us, withstand huge bloodshed. Colonizers cannot. The scale of resistance is only increasing, and once it reaches the tipping point of inflicting what the Israelis can’t endure, this occupation will be over.
Yeah, but it’s pretty damning to see all the astroturfing on social media, blacklisting from companies, and crackdowns on peaceful protests by governments.
I think we’re witnessing one big Streisand-effect here where people are fed up at having others choose what they can see and what they can say.
I’m very proud at how the narrative didn’t snowball in Israel’s favor. If anything, this caused people who blindly supported Israel to learn more about the history of the region and why there is conflict in the first place.
If you weren’t anti-Zionist before, you’re probably one now.
Posted this above but I’ll copy here, since you seem to be making the same mistake as Wolf.
Friendly reminder this is an urban center with 50k people normally living in it, with permanent concrete buildings. This is not a bunch of tents and soup pots.
I’m not the one you responded to, I don’t hate Jews. What I do hate is people like you excusing the killing of civilians as acceptable collateral for the greater good. Fuck off!
I suppose if you hate Jews enough anything can look like anything.
If you think that one being able make bombing a refugee camp that was known to be populated “look” like genocide proves that person hates Jews, then I don’t know what to tell you.
They did not kill a battalion. Not even Israel is claiming that. They may have killed a battalion commander. And Israel still isn’t letting refugees flee through their lines so that’s still a terroristic threat not a warning.
Israel’s military has been calling for civilians to leave northern Gaza since airstrikes began. But some are too old or ill to travel. Others have weighed up dangers including attacks on convoys heading south and airstrikes in areas in the south that Israel designated “safer” zones, and decided to stay.
I think Israel is losing the information war on this recent crisis. They’re trying to defend the indefensible. There’s no way to spin “we dropped a bomb on a refugee camp” into something acceptable. And people are seeing the bullshit for what it is.
They really screwed the pooch on this one from a messaging stance. Stepping back from the emotions and the war crimes and just looking at their propaganda, it’s just being handled sloppily. Propaganda has always been Israel’s superpower, and they’re doing a terrible job of it.
You don’t defend the bombing of a refugee camp by saying “There may have been tunnels or infrastructure.”
At this point you just lie and say you know there were military objectives. Or pull a play from the US and count the bodies and claim that any body of a “military-age male” was a combatant.
Admitting on international television that you knowingly and intentionally bombed a bunch of civilians you absolutely knew you were killing just in case there might be bad guys among them is a bad look.
They’re using the exact same kind of messaging they’re using internally to their own right-wing and scared centre, “tough guys making hard decisions to keep you safe” kind of stuff. To people who went on school trips to Auschwitz with armed Israeli security – not because visiting Poland wouldn’t be safe, but out of a mixture of security theatre and propaganda. It just doesn’t work if you aren’t part of that particular information bubble. They seem to have forgotten that it doesn’t even work on the Israeli left wing so why should it work on random people from elsewhere.
Also stunts like the yellow stars in the security council. Come the fuck on crocodile-teared self-victimisation can’t possibly be more blatant, and it’s fucking disgusting how they trivialise the Holocaust with that shit.
I think you’re underestimating just how much Islamophobia exists in the world. People don’t mind if brown people get killed.
I think it’s a combination of pushing boundaries of tactics that were previously working well enough for them and not realising that over time, more and more people become aware that Israel is a present day colonial country still doing some of the evil shit we’re not proud of our own countries for doing in the past. And people are more willing to challenge the anti-semitism accusations because there’s a huge difference between hating people for existing and hating what an authoritarian power is doing to a population it hates for not quietly letting them take more and more of their land.
Not to mention I don’t think the response to 9/11 was a good one either and evoking that seems to be one of the prongs of their propaganda attack. There’s a comment a bit higher up doing that exactly, but it’s kinda funny because in the first paragraph it sounds like it’s making a 9/11 reference ironically, but then the 2nd paragraph shows it was serious.
One of them tried that same claim in an interview yesterday. Not Hecht, but an older guy - he said, seeing the video of the cleanup effort (men sorting through rubble), “a lot of those look like military age males”.
Well, they keep killing them, but the reporters keep reporting! /s
Easy, just gotta kill them and their families too! (Obvious /s)
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208019720/journalist-deaths-gaza-israel-hamas
https://cpj.org/2023/11/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/
https://www.ifj.org/media-centre/news/detail/category/press-releases/article/palestine-ifj-responds-to-accusations-that-israel-is-targeting-journalists-in-gaza
https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/news/not-just-shireen-how-israel-has-attacked-journalists-and-newsrooms-palestine
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/al-jazeera-journalist-family-killed-wael-al-dahdouh
Just nakedly going after the journalists actually shocked me. It shouldn’t have but I honestly didn’t think even Israel could get away with that.
They’ve been doing that for years. They shot Shireen Abu Akleh, showed up at her funeral to beat the shit out of the people carrying her coffin, and then just recently bulldozed the memorial to her.
they might be losing the information war but they’ll always have the support of the governments of the english speaking world and they don’t actually need to win the information war. they’re winning the kill-the-other-guys war and no one who can do anything about it wants to.
Even Western governments are getting uncomfortable about this. I think Israel overestimates just how far they can go before the West starts to consider pulling their support.
LoL. Western governments still aren’t even saying “please stop” let alone pulling the billions in funding that’s being used to do this.
I expect Israel just out and out kill everyone is Gaza this time and take the land thinking it will end this problem forever. I expect in 10 years they’ll figure out they failed when another attack happens.
How will that be a failure? They’ll have finished the ethnic cleansing of the region and added more land. Another terrorist attack that kills a few people will just give them another casus belli to do another genocide somewhere else, probably in the west bank next.
Even if the West “starts to consider” maybe not wholeheartedly backing Israel’s brutal actions, it will be some time before they do anything about it, if they ever do. Until then Israel will continue killing.
I know :/
They are only winning if killing civilians is winning. It isn’t, France killed tens of thousands of Algerians before being promptly defeated and expelled. Same thing happened in Vietnam. The Palestinian resistance is inflicting huge losses in the Israeli army. Scores of destroyed tanks and dead israeli soldiers every day
That is the goal that they’ve stated repeatedly
They will literally want a blood price measured in tens of thousands of bodies. At the funeral of mass murderer Baruch Goldstein a Rabby famously said “one million Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail”
I’m not downplaying the deaths of 10,000 people or that 30,000 have been injured. There are over a million displaced and over 2 million Palestinians live in Gaza, more in the West Bank and more in the surrounding countries.
Israel cannot win this. It is impossible to accomplish their genocide. That’s after weeks of bombing spending who knows how much on munitions. Logistically it’s impossible.
They can’t genocide the entire Palestinian people and they are not going to be able to expel the gazans. They think that murdering thousands will deter Palestinians from resisting, but that’s hugely incorrect. We can, as colonized people have shown before us, withstand huge bloodshed. Colonizers cannot. The scale of resistance is only increasing, and once it reaches the tipping point of inflicting what the Israelis can’t endure, this occupation will be over.
Yeah, but it’s pretty damning to see all the astroturfing on social media, blacklisting from companies, and crackdowns on peaceful protests by governments.
I think we’re witnessing one big Streisand-effect here where people are fed up at having others choose what they can see and what they can say.
I’m very proud at how the narrative didn’t snowball in Israel’s favor. If anything, this caused people who blindly supported Israel to learn more about the history of the region and why there is conflict in the first place.
If you weren’t anti-Zionist before, you’re probably one now.
Not if you look at my Facebook feed full of evangelicals saying “I stand with Israel cause the Bible says so”
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Posted this above but I’ll copy here, since you seem to be making the same mistake as Wolf.
Friendly reminder this is an urban center with 50k people normally living in it, with permanent concrete buildings. This is not a bunch of tents and soup pots.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabalia_refugee_camp
They killed a battalion of Hamas fighters. This is just how war functions
Blitzer not knowing the facts of this “camp” just kind of makes him look like an amateur.
Edit: also it’s in the North and bombings are why they said to move south for 2 solid weeks.
Just wanted to quote the post you’re replying to. Add all the context you want, you’re only making sound more like genocide.
I suppose if you hate Jews enough anything can look like anything.
Post-truth living sure is easy!
I’m not the one you responded to, I don’t hate Jews. What I do hate is people like you excusing the killing of civilians as acceptable collateral for the greater good. Fuck off!
Piss off, astroturfer. We’re WAYYYY beyond the “criticism of Israel is anti-semitism” fallacy. It’s been debunked. Go ride a bike or something.
Are we?
https://lemmy.world/post/7632272
I wonder what he was so mad about?
If you think that one being able make bombing a refugee camp that was known to be populated “look” like genocide proves that person hates Jews, then I don’t know what to tell you.
That im right
Yikes. You are astoundingly bigoted.
Congrats on *ensuring you’ll never have a shred of credibility on this subject!
Were there IDF at the music festival?
That would make it fair game by your own logic.
They did not kill a battalion. Not even Israel is claiming that. They may have killed a battalion commander. And Israel still isn’t letting refugees flee through their lines so that’s still a terroristic threat not a warning.
Removed by mod
Going south. That they bombed.
Didn’t they then bomb that though? Leaving people too afraid to use it?
They did.
No.
It seems they did…
NSFL: https://x.com/jacksonhinklle/status/1720459569296474530?s=46
Wrong as usual.
Civilians not getting out of the way before you bomb is not an excuse for you to bomb.
If they don’t move, then you need to find another way of taking out your enemy.
Is this really how you think wars work?
Ask someone who is a career military officer someday about the Rules of Engagement that they learn.