I don’t think any right-thinking person has any sympathy for Hamas, and rightly so.
However, Palestinians are not automatically members of Hamas. This would be like saying you’re “done with” Americans and we should bomb every major American city because of the actions of the Proud Boys and other right-wing militias.
A more reasonable comparison would be to feel completely done with USA because of the republicans or democrats, but not even that compares since the support of both parties actually are lower than that of Hamas or Islamic Jihad in Palestine
Just a few things thats come up in Sweden in “support of palestine” after the 7th october attack.
The most important part of this is the support level. I have 2 points about this. First is that 43% of Palestinians in Gaza that don’t support Hamas are entitled to not be blown up or displaced, the second is that out of those 57% there’s a big difference between material support and just ticking a box in a poll. Does someone who says “Hitler did nothing wrong” deserve execution? I would argue they should be deplatformed, but not starved, tortured, shot and/or bombed.
And to add to that, these people did not say “Hamas did nothing wrong”. 58% said they saw Hamas as very or “somewhat” positive. This is an organisation who on one hand is a terrorist organisation, but who on the other hand operates social services. People living in deep poverty who are exposed to the social services aspect will naturally to some extent be willing to tick a box saying “somewhat positive” (38%, vs 20% “very positive”) for an organization who they personally have first-hand positive interactions with.
Despite that, and at the same time, the same survey also points out that 70% of the population in Gaza wants Hamas to give up separate armed units and hand power over the the Palestinian Authority, which should give some insight into how “somewhat positive” does not mean “agree with brutal terrorism against civilians” given that it in fact doesn’t even mean “thinks Hamas should stay in charge or have control of armed units”.
This person keeps grossly misrepresenting the level of support actually expressed.
Of course nobody ever deserves to get bombed, just the same as how nobody deserves what Hamas did to the Israelian civilians. My point is to address how disgusting and despicable the behavior of Palestinians are regarding the actions of Hamas, and how ridiculous it is that these behaviors aren’t getting called out.
Instead of worldwide demonstrations against israel and celebrations of what those poor civilians had to endure, perhaps it’s time for them to start demonstrating against Hamas. It’s really hard to feel any major sympathy when they show absolutely none towards the victims of the terrorist attack.
I completely agree. Everyone wants a nice simple goodie vs baddie dynamic but that’s just not how it is.
Innocent people are being killed. I am pro-non-combatants-not-dying.
Frankly it’s bizarre that western countries are so supportive of Israel. Yes Israel needs to defend itself but I don’t think that requires the deaths of 5,000 mostly innocent Palestinians.
Maybe. It seems like the same parties pulling the strings in the Ukraine / Russia Conflict are the parties pulling the strings in the Israel / Gaza conflict.
Remember how in the book 1984, it explains how the three major factions of that world were fighting proxy wars in the small equatorial region they had yet to conquer, and they were doing it on purpose to burn resources to maintain their brutally authoritarian societies?
Oh definitely, agreed. I’m not siding with israel at all, I’m calling out how absolutely disgusting it is that people are coming to defense of these actions, and defending the worldspread celebrations of these deeds by the people who emigrated away from there.
“We will fight with our oppressor using terrorism, which will guarantee us all further suffering and isolation. We will also fire unreliable missiles that sometimes kill our citizens. Support us!”
Yeah, I don’t think it’s okay to expect any sane person to support these guys.
What I do not understand is why the same doesn’t count for Israel? It’s founded by and for people who were oppressed and killed for much longer than Palestinians.
Holy shit, way to misrepresent an article. I urge anyone who thinks the above commenter had a good point to click through and at least read the headline of the article.
I guess you thought it a complete coincidence that all of Israel’s traditional supporters were countries that all had deep histories of white supremacism, antisemitism and colonialism, eh? France, Germany, the UK, Australia, Canada, Apartheid-era South Africa and, of course, the US - just a complete coincidence, right?
Did you start hating all Germans once Hitler got into power? If you didn’t, that’s mighty hypocritical of you. If you did, that’s misguidedly racist as well.
Ah yes, silly of me to be against humanitarian aid to be dug up and used as weapons by a terrorist group, extra silly since that terrorist group and their actions have a majority supported by their population.
What’s silly is that you lot consistently see the situation on its head. Either you don’t get what is going on, or you don’t want to tell the truth.
Hamas is what happens when you do to people what Israel does. It’s that simple. You cannot deprive an entire people of their dignity and commit atrocities for half a century and then complain when a section of them turns to violence. Anyone who suggests that is an idiot.
Pro-human rights bro, not pro Islam. Israel has to be held to the same standards that they preach around the world. If they didn’t preach so much about genocide and the holocaust then I guess it could be different for them.
I am more against religious fundamentalism, regardless of source. If it is the origin of terrorism and senseless murder, it needs to stop regardless of which book people believe.
You are aware that many of the Jewish population of Isreal considered what they are doing is just because Isreal was promised to them and they consider all non-Jews to be less than human?
Exactly this. People are oversimplify the whole story. In my opinion there’s 2 camps of people who currently supports Palestine.
They just don’t know the historical background and don’t know specifically -what- Hamas did the 7th, nor the huge support Hamas has in Palestine. (to clarify, A TERROR GROUP that has SUMMER CAMPS where they train kids to become terrorists).
They support them because they enjoy jews getting killed.
Concidering how the rich arab countries has reacted during their neighbour’s times of need earlier: closing borders and not caring, group number 2 seems likely.
Just picture that the Palestinians actually celebrate Hamas terrorist attack, they feel joy over the actions many of us now have seen on videos and they celebrate it even in the streets in Western countries.
Imagine that 57% of Palestinians supports Hamas and 50% are against the idea of peace, 71% supports PIJ (Islamic Jihad), all while Biden won his election with 51%, Obama won with 53%, George Bush won in 1989 by 53%, last time any president got more votes than the support Hamas has in Palestine was in 1984, 39 years ago! Source about Palestinians support.
That’s how enormous the support of Hamas is, and some of ya’ll are defending them. You need to watch the videos released of the atrocities Hamas committed, see the actions that you’re defending, but I bet you don’t even have the stomachs for it.
What about the group that’s aware that Palestinians were forced out of their homes and have been forced to live in impoverished conditions for decades?
What about the group that recognizes the actions of both sides as being wrong and that neither side is “right”?
There are many Israelis fighting hard to protect civilian lives, both in Gaza and the West Bank. You should look up B’Tselem. Quite a few of their activists got arrested over the last few days for peacefully protesting the bombing campaign.
Oh yes I’m not justifying israels expansion at all, israel isn’t some completely innocent toddler sitting in a corner. It’s however very interesting that you’re excusing the recorded actions that has showed up online though, the rape, the murders, the torture, the executions of whole families in their homes, because “israel also did bad!”.
I feel no empathy for those who affiliates themselves, supports, and/or celebrates it. Those actions regardless of the reason or source are absolutely fucking despicable. They specifically targetted civilians instead of soldiers, police, or people in the government. They went in to specifically kill anybody that couldn’t defend themselves simply for being jewish, and living in Israel. Watch the clips again and then tell me “Oh yeah well what about…”
Nobody is exusing anything. Shelling cities and blowing up residential buildings Is bad. So is raping and murdering civilians.
Most of us just want the violence to stop on both sides. Hamas was a side effect of Israel’s oppression. Same as most other terrorist groups and gangs. Everyone is doing awful things and it just needs to fucking stop.
Of course, war is hell and this will never end well for anybody. Check the statistics I linked though and you’ll find that 50% of Palestinians don’t want peace as long as israel exist. How would any sort of peace be established if half of the entire population is against it? The Jews and the Muslims have been in conflict with eachother over Jerusalem since the 1800’s. As Jewish people moved into the city at an increasing rate the Muslims and jews started murdering eachother. The atrocities have been aweful from both sides for soon 150 years, long before Israel even existed and sadly now after this terrorist attack, it will probably end up as “just Israel”… I hope any innocent civilian have the ability to get out of there before things really escalates.
However, to come back to my original point, you’ll never find compilations online of israelian soldiers doing the same things that the beloved Hamas did, and if they wouldve, you would never see Jewish people celebrate the rapes and murders of children and women.
Anybody here can say whatever they want, it’s beyond disgusting to see the amount of support and celebrations that was going on during the 7th october attack and the total lack of reaction from the rest of the world regarding it. Grow some fucking balls and condemn the celebrations. I’ll never have the urge to help anybody that approves of and/or celebrates the things shown in those videos.
Check the statistics I linked though and you’ll find that 50% of Palestinians don’t want peace as long as israel exist.
From your link:
Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.”
That does not support your claim, because people were not asked about what you claim, and it’s grossly dishonest to suggest they answered based on your characterization.
The question is two-pronged, asking both whether Hamas should change their demands and then narrowing the possible solution down to one specific peace alternative that we know many Palestinians would be deeply unhappy with, given that it would mean substantial territorial concessions and might well also have been interpreted as largely giving up the very thorny right of return demand.
Nothing in this question asks people to agree or disagree to “peace as long as Israel exist”.
A more reasonable interpretation is that half of Gazans are support substantial concessions before even starting any negotiations by expressing support for a kind of peace that’d involve the Palestinian side giving up on big territorial claims from the outset.
When you misrepresent the numbers this way, why should anyone listen to you?
Your comments are rife with false dichotomies, strawmen, and general fabrications. If that’s what you need to make your points, you might want to look at your stance critically and ask yourself some hard questions.
It’s cute when someone posts claims contradicted by their own source. The link actually says that “57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas”.
Consider that while Hamas is a terrorist organisation it also runs social programs, exactly to effectively buy this kind of support. For some poor family in Gaza struggling to survive it’s unsurprising that if given handouts by Hamas that some will express that kind of muted positive views even for a dictatorial regime that 70% of Gazans wants removed from power per the same link (see below).
To try to twist that into “supports” is victim-blaming of the worst sort.
Should we meanwhile talk about Israel, where there actually are regular elections and majorities keep voting in regimes that perpetuate an apartheid regime and commits gross crimes against humanity? Or is it only people in Gaza who are responsible for their governments actions, despite the fact that the majority of those of voting age in Gaza were not old enough to be part of the electorate that brought Hamas to power (in an election where they got a minority of votes).
some of ya’ll are defending them
Just like some are defending the mass murderous apartheid regime of Israel or try to implicate Palestinian civilians for actions they had no party in.
Meanwhile most of us think Hamas are terrorists but also recognise that Israel is an oppressive apartheid state and the only party with the power to actually end this, and yet is doubling down on crimes against humanity.
And plenty of Americans (probably around 50% given recent election results) would rejoice over any innocent civilian we killed in “the war on terror” and would defend war criminals in the US military. Would that make it okay to starve and bomb the entire population of the US? Is everyone in this country a war criminal?
Misinformation, stereotypes, and “Wuttabaut 'murica” galore! Truly hit the trifecta. Not really no, when war crimes have been brought up the general concensus has been jail. Don’t make shit up.
Famous examples are that navy seal “Eddie Gallagher” or the 4 blackwater guys that killed 14 civilians in 2007. They were all convicted, but made the big headlines with a huge backlash after Trump pardoned them, the absolute fucking bafoon… If clips surfaced of american soldiers comitting these actions, people would be outraged. Remember Guantanamo bay? There was a huge public backlash and push towards closing it from all sides, and there’s strong support for arguing “the war” was lost because the public turned against it.
Google “american soldier jailed afghanistan” and the list of links will just keep going page by page. You’ll never see any terrorist imprisoned in Palestine because of their involvement and participation in the 7th october. But yeah sure “WHAT ABOUT 'MURICANS?!?!?!”
How do you prove my point way better than I could, but still act like you made a point against me?
Like you say Trump pardoned them, and almost 50% of the country had no problem with that.
You mention guantanamo, but it’s still open and nobody cares.
And not to mention things like the Hague invasion act, where the US says it will literally invade Europe if the ICC tries to bring an American to court for war crimes. And most of the US doesn’t care, hell a lot fucking support that idea cuz 'murica.
And anyway you completely fucking misread my comment. I’m not saying palestine is innocent because America did bad things. Its not whattaboutism its me saying “what if this was happening to you”? What I’d some chud decided that it was fair to punish the whole USA because shitty people in your country have a lot of support.
That’s the point of the comment that you so conveniently ignored.
Mate, do you believe the people that voted for Trump supported them getting pardoned? Do you believe people went out on the streets to celebrate it? Have you heard ANYBODY call the pardons and their crimes good? Of course you haven’t. In Palestine, aswell as around the world by emigrated palestinians, the atrocities by hamas are celebrated and the terrorists that carried it out will never get put in court. They’re heroes in their eyes.
I gave you 2 famous examples that got famous because of how big the backlash was from pardoning war crimes, and your comeback automatically is “OH FAMOUS, 50% OF AMERICANS MUSTVE LOVE IT!”. You really have the worst take on everything don’t you.
Yes, people do care, a major part of Obama winning the election was his promise to close Guantanamo bay but the congress refused to let it happen. There is no support among the public for it, its hated by everyone, but the government refuse to close it.
Regarding the Hague invasion act, it was created as a tool that could quickly be used without going through congress, if a situation was serious enough to seem nessicary in order to protect and secure a fair trial of all appointed officials and military personnel in any criminal court of which USA is not a member. The ACTUAL name is “The American Service-Members’ Protection Act”. You’re actually trying to compare that, and USA that DO convict and punish their own war criminals when they catch them, with Palestine that celebrates them? Aight. Cool.
I understand the point you’re trying to make, but it’s just a terrible point because regardless of the situation I would be in, I WOULD NEVER CELEBRATE, SUPPORT, AND TAKE JOY OUT OF SEEING KIDS, WOMEN, AND INNOCENT CIVILIANS GETTING RAPED, TORTURED, AND EXECUTED BY A TERRORIST GROUP. Then we have absolute tools like you trying to minimize it 🤡
And on the topic of punishing the whole country, do you believe it was wrong to put punishing demands on Germany after WW2? Was it unfair to make the nation pay for the damages they’ve inflicted? Was it wrong to put trading embargos on entire Russia because Putin decided the war with Ukraine had to happen? Of course not.
Mate, do you believe the people that voted for Trump supported them getting pardoned?
100% if for no other reason than because Trump did it.
Have you heard ANYBODY call the pardons and their crimes good?
Yes, the typical Trump sycophants on social media when it happened. They LOVED the fact that non MAGA cultists were upset by it.
You really have the worst take on everything don’t you.
It might be a bad take but cant be the WORST take as you keep giving out takes.
Yes, people do care, a major part of Obama winning the election was his promise to close Guantanamo bay but the congress refused to let it happen. There is no support among the public for it, its hated by everyone, but the government refuse to close it.
Yeah people care so much no one did anything about it, and you definitely know theres no public support for it because…?
The ACTUAL name is “The American Service-Members’ Protection Act”.
Great argument that completely refutes the point that the content of the law says the US will literally invade a sovereign country if the ICC tries to put an American on trial for war crimes. Is there any more purely semantic arguments you would like to make in lue of a substantial argument?
You’re actually trying to compare that, and USA that DO convict and punish their own war criminals when they catch them, with Palestine that celebrates them? Aight. Cool.
You are literally as thick as pig shit, mate. Its like trying to talk reason to a crying toddler. You only parse the parts you want to read.
I understand the point you’re trying to make
No you dont, you understand it about as well as one of my shits understands quantum chromodynamics. And I could sit here and try to explain it to you but I dont think I have the patience or finger paints needed in order to do so. And even if I did, you’re so invested in your stupid take that you wouldnt except anything I say and justy continue arguing for the sake of arguing like the fucking redditor you are.
I WOULD NEVER CELEBRATE, SUPPORT, AND TAKE JOY OUT OF SEEING KIDS, WOMEN, AND INNOCENT CIVILIANS GETTING RAPED, TORTURED, AND EXECUTED BY A TERRORIST GROUP. Then we have absolute tools like you trying to minimize it 🤡
But youre fine to minimise collective punishment, bombing hospitals, killing women, children, unarmed civilians, journalists and aid workers because slightly more than half the population voted for Hamas many years ago?
For my own mental health I refuse to believe anyone is this genuinely stupid. So im just going with the more likely option that you’re just another shitty troll that likes to make decidely stupid and edgy comments that get lots of downvotes and hate replys because thats the only way you’re able to get the attention you so desperately desire.
And on the topic of punishing the whole country, do you believe it was wrong to put punishing demands on Germany after WW2?
Yes. Hell even at the time we knew it was bad because Hitlers rise to power was almost a direct result of the punishments imposed on Germany after WW1 and the Weirmar republic. Thats why West Germany got tons and tons of aid to be rebuilt, more help and aid than France and the UK got in fact.
If you think hating Palestinians is justified because of support for Hamas while they do terrible things, do you also think it is justified to hate Israel for the inhumanity the Israeli government (which has the support of the Israeli people) has perpetuated since Israel was brought into the region?
The last time any election was held in Gaza most of the people weren’t even old enough to vote. And despite your efforts to smear the people as bloodthirsty your own link says the majority did not want to break the cease fire.
Massive support for various terrorist groups, one of them reaching 74%
Firstly, they’ve not been asked whether they support them. If you’re going to link surveys, maybe don’t actively misrepresent what they say.
The very same link also shows 70% want the PA to take over power in Gaza. Some “support”.
50% of the population don’t want peace with Israel.
An occupied population has a legal right under international law to engage in armed resistance against their occupier, so why is this surprising? A brutally oppressive apartheid state engaged in extensive war crimes and crimes against humanity does not have a right to an expectation that the other side want peace when they continue that oppression.
If Israel shows that it is willing to take Palestinian concerns seriously and Palestinians still don’t want peace, then you’d have an argument. As it is, it’s grossly unjustified to demand of the Palestinian population that they should be ready to surrender.
This why Palestinians hate Israel, Israel literally destroyed their country.
Also pretty fucking rich to dig elections from 17 years ago where Israel supported Hamas to delegitimize other groups so people like you would be fooled.
It’s simple, don’t steal their houses, encroach on their land, fracture their community into an archipelago divided by walls, and put checkpoints every two miles, and restrict trade. Don’t do any of that, especially don’t do it while preaching about genocide and the holocaust and then asking for hand outs. Then I wouldn’t care, and might even support israel.
You forgot another important point: the absolute majority of Muslims will defend Palestine, no matter what they do.
You risk being reprimanded in your Muslim community if you aren’t 100 % pro Palestine and often also when you aren’t pro Hamas. It has become part of their identity.
Palestinians asking for a homeland. They are at home and have been invaded for over 70 years
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I don’t think any right-thinking person has any sympathy for Hamas, and rightly so.
However, Palestinians are not automatically members of Hamas. This would be like saying you’re “done with” Americans and we should bomb every major American city because of the actions of the Proud Boys and other right-wing militias.
The support for hamas is 57% in palestine, Islamic Jihad has 71% support, people with Palestinian background are celebrating the executions, the rapes, and the murder of children on the streets in the western world even.
A more reasonable comparison would be to feel completely done with USA because of the republicans or democrats, but not even that compares since the support of both parties actually are lower than that of Hamas or Islamic Jihad in Palestine
Just a few things thats come up in Sweden in “support of palestine” after the 7th october attack.
Hizb Ut-Tahrir flags, terrorists that are radical islamists, banned in 6 + almost all Arab countries. Their goal is to create a Muslim caliphate by fights against their idea of non-muslim regimes. They recognize no other religion, is heavily anti-semitic, and is founded in Jerusalem
The biggest arabic newspaper in Sweden had 2 editors show open support for Hamas- quote: “may god assist them and give them victory” and “our guys are good” just hours after the attack.
Big number of cars driving up and down the streets honking and waving flags hours after the terrorist attack. In the comments people are discussing how big this demonstration was, and how several streets were completely shut off, aswell as some Danish commenters explaining how it was the same in Copenhagen.
Article about the demonstrations aswell as the support shown online to these terrorist attacks. This one isn’t as credible as the rest since it’s a very right-wing website, but the demonstrations are true and the comments they mention were on full display in support of Hamas murdering jews.
Here’s our government discussing entirely stopping all financial and humanitarian aid to Palestine because of the huge support shown for the murders, kidnappings, and tortures that were committed the 7th. Quote: “We cannot provide support for a government that celebrates and shows support for actions like these”
The most important part of this is the support level. I have 2 points about this. First is that 43% of Palestinians in Gaza that don’t support Hamas are entitled to not be blown up or displaced, the second is that out of those 57% there’s a big difference between material support and just ticking a box in a poll. Does someone who says “Hitler did nothing wrong” deserve execution? I would argue they should be deplatformed, but not starved, tortured, shot and/or bombed.
And to add to that, these people did not say “Hamas did nothing wrong”. 58% said they saw Hamas as very or “somewhat” positive. This is an organisation who on one hand is a terrorist organisation, but who on the other hand operates social services. People living in deep poverty who are exposed to the social services aspect will naturally to some extent be willing to tick a box saying “somewhat positive” (38%, vs 20% “very positive”) for an organization who they personally have first-hand positive interactions with.
Despite that, and at the same time, the same survey also points out that 70% of the population in Gaza wants Hamas to give up separate armed units and hand power over the the Palestinian Authority, which should give some insight into how “somewhat positive” does not mean “agree with brutal terrorism against civilians” given that it in fact doesn’t even mean “thinks Hamas should stay in charge or have control of armed units”.
This person keeps grossly misrepresenting the level of support actually expressed.
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Of course nobody ever deserves to get bombed, just the same as how nobody deserves what Hamas did to the Israelian civilians. My point is to address how disgusting and despicable the behavior of Palestinians are regarding the actions of Hamas, and how ridiculous it is that these behaviors aren’t getting called out.
Instead of worldwide demonstrations against israel and celebrations of what those poor civilians had to endure, perhaps it’s time for them to start demonstrating against Hamas. It’s really hard to feel any major sympathy when they show absolutely none towards the victims of the terrorist attack.
I wonder how many say they support Hamas out if fear of retaliation.
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I completely agree. Everyone wants a nice simple goodie vs baddie dynamic but that’s just not how it is.
Innocent people are being killed. I am pro-non-combatants-not-dying.
Frankly it’s bizarre that western countries are so supportive of Israel. Yes Israel needs to defend itself but I don’t think that requires the deaths of 5,000 mostly innocent Palestinians.
A radical idea: if “defending yourself” requires killing thousands of Innocent people, you do not, in fact, have a right to “defend yourself”.
I’m greatly worried the whole debacle is taking away much-needed attention from Ukraine.
Maybe. It seems like the same parties pulling the strings in the Ukraine / Russia Conflict are the parties pulling the strings in the Israel / Gaza conflict.
Remember how in the book 1984, it explains how the three major factions of that world were fighting proxy wars in the small equatorial region they had yet to conquer, and they were doing it on purpose to burn resources to maintain their brutally authoritarian societies?
I feel like these wars are doing just that.
Oh definitely, agreed. I’m not siding with israel at all, I’m calling out how absolutely disgusting it is that people are coming to defense of these actions, and defending the worldspread celebrations of these deeds by the people who emigrated away from there.
That’s my position too. How can you celebrate in the street after a terrorist attacks like this ?
People will support anyone who fights their oppressors, whether the means used are moral or not. Since oppression and killing are immoral as well.
“We will fight with our oppressor using terrorism, which will guarantee us all further suffering and isolation. We will also fire unreliable missiles that sometimes kill our citizens. Support us!”
Yeah, I don’t think it’s okay to expect any sane person to support these guys.
What I do not understand is why the same doesn’t count for Israel? It’s founded by and for people who were oppressed and killed for much longer than Palestinians.
Holy shit, way to misrepresent an article. I urge anyone who thinks the above commenter had a good point to click through and at least read the headline of the article.
Oh no, it’s the consequences of my own actions again.
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Ah yes let’s „be done“ with a whole group of people, that’s normal rhetoric 👍
In other words… your sympathies always lay with the white supremacist settler-colonialist project and not their victims.
How is Israel a white supremacist settler-colonist? Do you know anything about Israel?
I guess you thought it a complete coincidence that all of Israel’s traditional supporters were countries that all had deep histories of white supremacism, antisemitism and colonialism, eh? France, Germany, the UK, Australia, Canada, Apartheid-era South Africa and, of course, the US - just a complete coincidence, right?
Israel has never been anything else.
Hamas isn’t Palestine.
Did you start hating all Germans once Hitler got into power? If you didn’t, that’s mighty hypocritical of you. If you did, that’s misguidedly racist as well.
Last drop in the bucket was how they dug up the water pipes that europe paid for, to make rockets out of them.
You sound so utterly clueless about the whole thing. And stupid to boot.
Ah yes, silly of me to be against humanitarian aid to be dug up and used as weapons by a terrorist group, extra silly since that terrorist group and their actions have a majority supported by their population.
What’s silly is that you lot consistently see the situation on its head. Either you don’t get what is going on, or you don’t want to tell the truth.
Hamas is what happens when you do to people what Israel does. It’s that simple. You cannot deprive an entire people of their dignity and commit atrocities for half a century and then complain when a section of them turns to violence. Anyone who suggests that is an idiot.
Can say the same about Israel. Israel is what happens when you commit atrocities against a people since about 586 BC.
Are we blaming Palestinians for everything that has happened to Jews over the last two and a half millennia?
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Palestinians haven’t been the victims here? The ones being evicted and shot by illegal “settlers” for decades?
I mean, didn’t this all start from a war where Israel was attacked by 3 countries and beat all of them so bad they actually gained ground?
“Egypt attacked me, so I get to annex the West Bank now”
Yeah, that’s not how logic works.
I agree, I’m surprised to see so much pro-Islam here.
Being against concentration camps (which is what Gaza is turned into) is not pro-Islam.
Pro-human rights bro, not pro Islam. Israel has to be held to the same standards that they preach around the world. If they didn’t preach so much about genocide and the holocaust then I guess it could be different for them.
The bigot shows his colours.
I am more against religious fundamentalism, regardless of source. If it is the origin of terrorism and senseless murder, it needs to stop regardless of which book people believe.
You are aware that many of the Jewish population of Isreal considered what they are doing is just because Isreal was promised to them and they consider all non-Jews to be less than human?
Exactly this. People are oversimplify the whole story. In my opinion there’s 2 camps of people who currently supports Palestine.
They just don’t know the historical background and don’t know specifically -what- Hamas did the 7th, nor the huge support Hamas has in Palestine. (to clarify, A TERROR GROUP that has SUMMER CAMPS where they train kids to become terrorists).
They support them because they enjoy jews getting killed.
Concidering how the rich arab countries has reacted during their neighbour’s times of need earlier: closing borders and not caring, group number 2 seems likely.
Just picture that the Palestinians actually celebrate Hamas terrorist attack, they feel joy over the actions many of us now have seen on videos and they celebrate it even in the streets in Western countries.
Imagine that 57% of Palestinians supports Hamas and 50% are against the idea of peace, 71% supports PIJ (Islamic Jihad), all while Biden won his election with 51%, Obama won with 53%, George Bush won in 1989 by 53%, last time any president got more votes than the support Hamas has in Palestine was in 1984, 39 years ago! Source about Palestinians support.
That’s how enormous the support of Hamas is, and some of ya’ll are defending them. You need to watch the videos released of the atrocities Hamas committed, see the actions that you’re defending, but I bet you don’t even have the stomachs for it.
What about the group that’s aware that Palestinians were forced out of their homes and have been forced to live in impoverished conditions for decades?
What about the group that recognizes the actions of both sides as being wrong and that neither side is “right”?
They’ll be ignored because all Israelis know what the state’s endgame is here and all its horrible implications.
There are many Israelis fighting hard to protect civilian lives, both in Gaza and the West Bank. You should look up B’Tselem. Quite a few of their activists got arrested over the last few days for peacefully protesting the bombing campaign.
Oh yes I’m not justifying israels expansion at all, israel isn’t some completely innocent toddler sitting in a corner. It’s however very interesting that you’re excusing the recorded actions that has showed up online though, the rape, the murders, the torture, the executions of whole families in their homes, because “israel also did bad!”.
I feel no empathy for those who affiliates themselves, supports, and/or celebrates it. Those actions regardless of the reason or source are absolutely fucking despicable. They specifically targetted civilians instead of soldiers, police, or people in the government. They went in to specifically kill anybody that couldn’t defend themselves simply for being jewish, and living in Israel. Watch the clips again and then tell me “Oh yeah well what about…”
Nobody is exusing anything. Shelling cities and blowing up residential buildings Is bad. So is raping and murdering civilians.
Most of us just want the violence to stop on both sides. Hamas was a side effect of Israel’s oppression. Same as most other terrorist groups and gangs. Everyone is doing awful things and it just needs to fucking stop.
Of course, war is hell and this will never end well for anybody. Check the statistics I linked though and you’ll find that 50% of Palestinians don’t want peace as long as israel exist. How would any sort of peace be established if half of the entire population is against it? The Jews and the Muslims have been in conflict with eachother over Jerusalem since the 1800’s. As Jewish people moved into the city at an increasing rate the Muslims and jews started murdering eachother. The atrocities have been aweful from both sides for soon 150 years, long before Israel even existed and sadly now after this terrorist attack, it will probably end up as “just Israel”… I hope any innocent civilian have the ability to get out of there before things really escalates.
However, to come back to my original point, you’ll never find compilations online of israelian soldiers doing the same things that the beloved Hamas did, and if they wouldve, you would never see Jewish people celebrate the rapes and murders of children and women.
Anybody here can say whatever they want, it’s beyond disgusting to see the amount of support and celebrations that was going on during the 7th october attack and the total lack of reaction from the rest of the world regarding it. Grow some fucking balls and condemn the celebrations. I’ll never have the urge to help anybody that approves of and/or celebrates the things shown in those videos.
From your link:
That does not support your claim, because people were not asked about what you claim, and it’s grossly dishonest to suggest they answered based on your characterization.
The question is two-pronged, asking both whether Hamas should change their demands and then narrowing the possible solution down to one specific peace alternative that we know many Palestinians would be deeply unhappy with, given that it would mean substantial territorial concessions and might well also have been interpreted as largely giving up the very thorny right of return demand.
Nothing in this question asks people to agree or disagree to “peace as long as Israel exist”.
A more reasonable interpretation is that half of Gazans are support substantial concessions before even starting any negotiations by expressing support for a kind of peace that’d involve the Palestinian side giving up on big territorial claims from the outset.
When you misrepresent the numbers this way, why should anyone listen to you?
Your comments are rife with false dichotomies, strawmen, and general fabrications. If that’s what you need to make your points, you might want to look at your stance critically and ask yourself some hard questions.
It’s cute when someone posts claims contradicted by their own source. The link actually says that “57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas”.
Consider that while Hamas is a terrorist organisation it also runs social programs, exactly to effectively buy this kind of support. For some poor family in Gaza struggling to survive it’s unsurprising that if given handouts by Hamas that some will express that kind of muted positive views even for a dictatorial regime that 70% of Gazans wants removed from power per the same link (see below).
To try to twist that into “supports” is victim-blaming of the worst sort.
Should we meanwhile talk about Israel, where there actually are regular elections and majorities keep voting in regimes that perpetuate an apartheid regime and commits gross crimes against humanity? Or is it only people in Gaza who are responsible for their governments actions, despite the fact that the majority of those of voting age in Gaza were not old enough to be part of the electorate that brought Hamas to power (in an election where they got a minority of votes).
Just like some are defending the mass murderous apartheid regime of Israel or try to implicate Palestinian civilians for actions they had no party in.
Meanwhile most of us think Hamas are terrorists but also recognise that Israel is an oppressive apartheid state and the only party with the power to actually end this, and yet is doubling down on crimes against humanity.
To focus on Hamas is deflection.
And plenty of Americans (probably around 50% given recent election results) would rejoice over any innocent civilian we killed in “the war on terror” and would defend war criminals in the US military. Would that make it okay to starve and bomb the entire population of the US? Is everyone in this country a war criminal?
Misinformation, stereotypes, and “Wuttabaut 'murica” galore! Truly hit the trifecta. Not really no, when war crimes have been brought up the general concensus has been jail. Don’t make shit up.
Famous examples are that navy seal “Eddie Gallagher” or the 4 blackwater guys that killed 14 civilians in 2007. They were all convicted, but made the big headlines with a huge backlash after Trump pardoned them, the absolute fucking bafoon… If clips surfaced of american soldiers comitting these actions, people would be outraged. Remember Guantanamo bay? There was a huge public backlash and push towards closing it from all sides, and there’s strong support for arguing “the war” was lost because the public turned against it.
Google “american soldier jailed afghanistan” and the list of links will just keep going page by page. You’ll never see any terrorist imprisoned in Palestine because of their involvement and participation in the 7th october. But yeah sure “WHAT ABOUT 'MURICANS?!?!?!”
How do you prove my point way better than I could, but still act like you made a point against me?
Like you say Trump pardoned them, and almost 50% of the country had no problem with that.
You mention guantanamo, but it’s still open and nobody cares.
And not to mention things like the Hague invasion act, where the US says it will literally invade Europe if the ICC tries to bring an American to court for war crimes. And most of the US doesn’t care, hell a lot fucking support that idea cuz 'murica.
And anyway you completely fucking misread my comment. I’m not saying palestine is innocent because America did bad things. Its not whattaboutism its me saying “what if this was happening to you”? What I’d some chud decided that it was fair to punish the whole USA because shitty people in your country have a lot of support.
That’s the point of the comment that you so conveniently ignored.
Mate, do you believe the people that voted for Trump supported them getting pardoned? Do you believe people went out on the streets to celebrate it? Have you heard ANYBODY call the pardons and their crimes good? Of course you haven’t. In Palestine, aswell as around the world by emigrated palestinians, the atrocities by hamas are celebrated and the terrorists that carried it out will never get put in court. They’re heroes in their eyes.
I gave you 2 famous examples that got famous because of how big the backlash was from pardoning war crimes, and your comeback automatically is “OH FAMOUS, 50% OF AMERICANS MUSTVE LOVE IT!”. You really have the worst take on everything don’t you.
Yes, people do care, a major part of Obama winning the election was his promise to close Guantanamo bay but the congress refused to let it happen. There is no support among the public for it, its hated by everyone, but the government refuse to close it.
Regarding the Hague invasion act, it was created as a tool that could quickly be used without going through congress, if a situation was serious enough to seem nessicary in order to protect and secure a fair trial of all appointed officials and military personnel in any criminal court of which USA is not a member. The ACTUAL name is “The American Service-Members’ Protection Act”. You’re actually trying to compare that, and USA that DO convict and punish their own war criminals when they catch them, with Palestine that celebrates them? Aight. Cool.
I understand the point you’re trying to make, but it’s just a terrible point because regardless of the situation I would be in, I WOULD NEVER CELEBRATE, SUPPORT, AND TAKE JOY OUT OF SEEING KIDS, WOMEN, AND INNOCENT CIVILIANS GETTING RAPED, TORTURED, AND EXECUTED BY A TERRORIST GROUP. Then we have absolute tools like you trying to minimize it 🤡
And on the topic of punishing the whole country, do you believe it was wrong to put punishing demands on Germany after WW2? Was it unfair to make the nation pay for the damages they’ve inflicted? Was it wrong to put trading embargos on entire Russia because Putin decided the war with Ukraine had to happen? Of course not.
100% if for no other reason than because Trump did it.
Yes, the typical Trump sycophants on social media when it happened. They LOVED the fact that non MAGA cultists were upset by it.
It might be a bad take but cant be the WORST take as you keep giving out takes.
Yeah people care so much no one did anything about it, and you definitely know theres no public support for it because…?
Great argument that completely refutes the point that the content of the law says the US will literally invade a sovereign country if the ICC tries to put an American on trial for war crimes. Is there any more purely semantic arguments you would like to make in lue of a substantial argument?
You are literally as thick as pig shit, mate. Its like trying to talk reason to a crying toddler. You only parse the parts you want to read.
No you dont, you understand it about as well as one of my shits understands quantum chromodynamics. And I could sit here and try to explain it to you but I dont think I have the patience or finger paints needed in order to do so. And even if I did, you’re so invested in your stupid take that you wouldnt except anything I say and justy continue arguing for the sake of arguing like the fucking redditor you are.
But youre fine to minimise collective punishment, bombing hospitals, killing women, children, unarmed civilians, journalists and aid workers because slightly more than half the population voted for Hamas many years ago?
For my own mental health I refuse to believe anyone is this genuinely stupid. So im just going with the more likely option that you’re just another shitty troll that likes to make decidely stupid and edgy comments that get lots of downvotes and hate replys because thats the only way you’re able to get the attention you so desperately desire.
Yes. Hell even at the time we knew it was bad because Hitlers rise to power was almost a direct result of the punishments imposed on Germany after WW1 and the Weirmar republic. Thats why West Germany got tons and tons of aid to be rebuilt, more help and aid than France and the UK got in fact.
If you think hating Palestinians is justified because of support for Hamas while they do terrible things, do you also think it is justified to hate Israel for the inhumanity the Israeli government (which has the support of the Israeli people) has perpetuated since Israel was brought into the region?
The last time any election was held in Gaza most of the people weren’t even old enough to vote. And despite your efforts to smear the people as bloodthirsty your own link says the majority did not want to break the cease fire.
The very same source also explains:
Massive support for various terrorist groups, one of them reaching 74%
50% of the population don’t want peace with Israel.
Think it’s hard to twist that into anything other than being bloodthirsty for Israeli blood.
Firstly, they’ve not been asked whether they support them. If you’re going to link surveys, maybe don’t actively misrepresent what they say.
The very same link also shows 70% want the PA to take over power in Gaza. Some “support”.
An occupied population has a legal right under international law to engage in armed resistance against their occupier, so why is this surprising? A brutally oppressive apartheid state engaged in extensive war crimes and crimes against humanity does not have a right to an expectation that the other side want peace when they continue that oppression.
If Israel shows that it is willing to take Palestinian concerns seriously and Palestinians still don’t want peace, then you’d have an argument. As it is, it’s grossly unjustified to demand of the Palestinian population that they should be ready to surrender.
Sure if you remove all context.
Can you blame em after being bombed and oppressed for 70 years?
Every single person there has never known a time of peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba?wprov=sfla1
This why Palestinians hate Israel, Israel literally destroyed their country.
Also pretty fucking rich to dig elections from 17 years ago where Israel supported Hamas to delegitimize other groups so people like you would be fooled.
If you have to lie to make your point, maybe you should reconsider how valid your point is.
It’s simple, don’t steal their houses, encroach on their land, fracture their community into an archipelago divided by walls, and put checkpoints every two miles, and restrict trade. Don’t do any of that, especially don’t do it while preaching about genocide and the holocaust and then asking for hand outs. Then I wouldn’t care, and might even support israel.
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Just to clarify, being antifascist necessitates being against fascism of all kinds, not just the ones who are your enemy.
Not to imply that the IDF are being fascist, but genocide is a likely outcome, whether ideologically intentional or incidental.
At the end of the day, this is a language game. Personally, I don’t care for the semantics of it all. I’m honestly quite anti-semantic.
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You forgot another important point: the absolute majority of Muslims will defend Palestine, no matter what they do. You risk being reprimanded in your Muslim community if you aren’t 100 % pro Palestine and often also when you aren’t pro Hamas. It has become part of their identity.