I never really understand why people find it so entertaining to make fun of vegetarians and vegans.
Their choice results in less suffering, plain and simple. Maybe you aren’t willing to change your diet, that’s your decision. But if others are willing to put effort into changing their diets and become vegetarian because it’s in line with their values, that’s admirable and should be applauded.
Please don’t make fun of people who put time and energy into pursuing their values. Not if you don’t see yourself as a bully.
I can go into detail on this, actually. It centers around personal insecurity, and a lack of empathy. Let me explain:
Keep in mind I used to eat meat. I’ve been a vegetarian for well over 10 years now.
So often they joke or sometimes project with, “how do you know someone’s a vegetarian/vegan? They’ll tell you.”
Now I get this can just be a joke, but oftentimes it comes off more passive-aggressive, reeking of insecurity. So entertain some possible reasons why vegetarians / vegans “tell you”:
Whose experience has been that bad with vegetarians/vegans, truly? Apart from what’s perpetuated and inflated in media and pop-culture. I’m literally surrounded by 97% of meat-eaters. How do I know they’re meat-eaters? I can guess because… 97% are meat-eaters. And that’s fine. But my sample of meat-eaters mocking what I choose to eat is far larger than the reverse. 3% means you aren’t bumping into too many of us. Speaking for myself, most of the moral arguments are fanned by those wondering why I chose to be one and cornered me into revealing I am a vegetarian (usually because the office or my group of friends is getting lunch or something, or I’m offered something I cannot have). Every single time I kindly explain my reasons and make an effort to note, “I don’t care what anyone else does, I just want to do my thing and lead by my own example.” Yet understand: it was THEY who asked ME. Food and eating with people is just an event that happens frequently. As a result it’s bound to happen that someone orders you something you can’t eat or attempts to and you explain to them why you cannot. They ask what you brought for lunch and the moment tofu crosses your mouth, cue the questions. Apparently they resent this and store this as ammunition later, and then remember it being you getting on a soapbox telling them what an awful person they are. (That’s probably their inner-conscience talking).
So — duh — it’s because you asked.
I assure you, speaking as a former meat-eater who was a meat-eater longer than a vegetarian, we receive A LOT more shit than we dish out. Most of us just want to do our thing and not even tell you. I don’t particularly like the attention when it’s pointed out — as is the case with most of my peers. I don’t mind questions, I just want mutual respect for my choices. Thus considering the sheer ratio of encounters between omnivores/carnivores vs. Plant-based diets, combined with the fact that most vegetarians/vegans have at one point been on the other side while the reverse isn’t true, I’d say people me know better the perspectives of both positions.
The problem is that diet becomes deeply personal and political for people. When they see someone else do something they don’t feel they can do themselves, then they either (a) try to elevate themselves above that person (case-in-point with @straypet below), or (b) try to bring the other person down. This has everything to do with ego and self-esteem.
It’s only admirable to be vegan if I agree with veganism, and I don’t.
Veganism is mostly a diet… not a religion. What does it even mean to say that you disagree with it? If some people feel like they should be vegan and they put effort into it and are willing to give things up, why shouldn’t this be admirable?
theres no causal mechanic that would result in less suffering. think of it this way: if i take a cup of water out of a bucket , then the bucket has less water. what is the mechanic by which less suffering exists?
edit:
after failing to meaningfully undermine my claim, this user decided to imply i have a mental illness, and lied about the nature of what i said and then tried to poison the well by editing their comment near the top of our subthread and has the gall to say i’m not participating in good faith. this accusation is, itself, bad faith. i encourage you to read what was said here, and decide for yourself whether being vegan reduces suffering.
Can you provide another example please? I’m not sure I follow the bucket analogy.
If I choose not to eat meat it lessens the demand for it (however minutely). On a larger scale with many vegans refusing to eat meat less animals are bred into existence to be slaughtered.
Not sure why he believes citing that graph is some great counterpoint. Less demand does factually translate to less supply and therefore less suffering. The problem is that populations still continue to grow and the number of vegetarians/vegans is neglible to overall growth.
Obviously if every vegan and vegetarian suddenly began eating meat again, then that graph would only increase in rate of change.
Change the minds of more people, and watch that change the rate of supply of course.
I don’t think I agree with this, as less people buy meat the demand for it falls. As the demand falls less is produced. Kind of a simple take I guess but I don’t think your comment makes sense.
On a larger scale with many vegans refusing to eat meat less animals are bred into existence to be slaughtered.
that has never happened. if it had, if being vegan had caused production of meat to fall, then i think you could make a case. but it hasn’t so you can’t.
Think of it this way. In a game of telephone, signal quality degrades. Remove the middle-men, you improve the signal-to-noise. In a similar manner, there is little point in raising livestock on land, only to greatly pollute said land, only to produce a substance in less quantity and quality than what you could’ve done in its absence. Less demand means less livestock raised or tortured.
In another way, if you are saying that whether these animals roam free and die by the nature versus being grown in confined cages to be harvested… Then I wager whether if aliens descended upon this planet and you could either live as you do or you and your offspring be raised like cattle in a dark cramped alien farm, hauled around by convey-belts for the slaughter — tell me, which would you prefer?
Edit: This peculiar user who lacks the capacity to respond with a single coherent comment in the thread (Schizophrenia? I don’t know…) espouses various logical fallacies and deflections. I am utterly unimpressed by their incoherent rebuttals and have no interest in discussing with bad-faith laziness. My points remain largely untouched.
Please, consolidate your comments into one. If you cannot manage this simple task, then I don’t know what point there is in discussing Thermodynamics with you.
In another way, if you are saying that whether these animals roam free and die by the nature versus being grown in confined cages to be harvested… Then I wager whether if aliens descended upon this planet and you could either live as you do or you and your offspring be raised like cattle in a dark cramped alien farm, hauled around by convey-belts for the slaughter — tell me, which would you prefer?
this is a nonsequitur. it has nothing to do with whether being vegan reduces sufffering, which it doesn’t.
I never really understand why people find it so entertaining to make fun of vegetarians and vegans.
Their choice results in less suffering, plain and simple. Maybe you aren’t willing to change your diet, that’s your decision. But if others are willing to put effort into changing their diets and become vegetarian because it’s in line with their values, that’s admirable and should be applauded.
Please don’t make fun of people who put time and energy into pursuing their values. Not if you don’t see yourself as a bully.
I can go into detail on this, actually. It centers around personal insecurity, and a lack of empathy. Let me explain:
Keep in mind I used to eat meat. I’ve been a vegetarian for well over 10 years now.
So often they joke or sometimes project with, “how do you know someone’s a vegetarian/vegan? They’ll tell you.”
Now I get this can just be a joke, but oftentimes it comes off more passive-aggressive, reeking of insecurity. So entertain some possible reasons why vegetarians / vegans “tell you”:
Whose experience has been that bad with vegetarians/vegans, truly? Apart from what’s perpetuated and inflated in media and pop-culture. I’m literally surrounded by 97% of meat-eaters. How do I know they’re meat-eaters? I can guess because… 97% are meat-eaters. And that’s fine. But my sample of meat-eaters mocking what I choose to eat is far larger than the reverse. 3% means you aren’t bumping into too many of us. Speaking for myself, most of the moral arguments are fanned by those wondering why I chose to be one and cornered me into revealing I am a vegetarian (usually because the office or my group of friends is getting lunch or something, or I’m offered something I cannot have). Every single time I kindly explain my reasons and make an effort to note, “I don’t care what anyone else does, I just want to do my thing and lead by my own example.” Yet understand: it was THEY who asked ME. Food and eating with people is just an event that happens frequently. As a result it’s bound to happen that someone orders you something you can’t eat or attempts to and you explain to them why you cannot. They ask what you brought for lunch and the moment tofu crosses your mouth, cue the questions. Apparently they resent this and store this as ammunition later, and then remember it being you getting on a soapbox telling them what an awful person they are. (That’s probably their inner-conscience talking).
So — duh — it’s because you asked.
I assure you, speaking as a former meat-eater who was a meat-eater longer than a vegetarian, we receive A LOT more shit than we dish out. Most of us just want to do our thing and not even tell you. I don’t particularly like the attention when it’s pointed out — as is the case with most of my peers. I don’t mind questions, I just want mutual respect for my choices. Thus considering the sheer ratio of encounters between omnivores/carnivores vs. Plant-based diets, combined with the fact that most vegetarians/vegans have at one point been on the other side while the reverse isn’t true, I’d say people me know better the perspectives of both positions.
The problem is that diet becomes deeply personal and political for people. When they see someone else do something they don’t feel they can do themselves, then they either (a) try to elevate themselves above that person (case-in-point with @straypet below), or (b) try to bring the other person down. This has everything to do with ego and self-esteem.
It’s only admirable to be vegan if I agree with veganism, and I don’t. It’s no more admirable to be vegan than it is to be a scientologist.
The self-righteousness blasted everywhere is why you get made fun of.
Read this other comment and understand why people mention they are vegetarian or vegan: https://lemmy.world/comment/4652396
Veganism is mostly a diet… not a religion. What does it even mean to say that you disagree with it? If some people feel like they should be vegan and they put effort into it and are willing to give things up, why shouldn’t this be admirable?
no, it doesn’t.
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your bourgeois standards of literacy don’t change whether i’m right.
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i’m just gob-smacked that you think trying to paint me as unstable somehow changes whether everything i’ve said is true.
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theres no causal mechanic that would result in less suffering. think of it this way: if i take a cup of water out of a bucket , then the bucket has less water. what is the mechanic by which less suffering exists?
edit:
after failing to meaningfully undermine my claim, this user decided to imply i have a mental illness, and lied about the nature of what i said and then tried to poison the well by editing their comment near the top of our subthread and has the gall to say i’m not participating in good faith. this accusation is, itself, bad faith. i encourage you to read what was said here, and decide for yourself whether being vegan reduces suffering.
double edit:
i’m no tankie. baby, i’m an anarchist.
Can you provide another example please? I’m not sure I follow the bucket analogy.
If I choose not to eat meat it lessens the demand for it (however minutely). On a larger scale with many vegans refusing to eat meat less animals are bred into existence to be slaughtered.
What am I missing?
Not sure why he believes citing that graph is some great counterpoint. Less demand does factually translate to less supply and therefore less suffering. The problem is that populations still continue to grow and the number of vegetarians/vegans is neglible to overall growth.
Obviously if every vegan and vegetarian suddenly began eating meat again, then that graph would only increase in rate of change.
Change the minds of more people, and watch that change the rate of supply of course.
how? how can you know whether a farm can even expand to accommodate more production?
any excuse you make doesn’t change whether more animals were killed this year than last, regardless of how many vegans there are.
I don’t think I agree with this, as less people buy meat the demand for it falls. As the demand falls less is produced. Kind of a simple take I guess but I don’t think your comment makes sense.
Is there an angle to this that I’ve missed?
as far as i can tell, that’s never happened. so, in practice, being vegan has never caused a reduction in suffering.
this is not causal
Just double checked the definition of causal here and I’m pretty sure it is. As the demand for a product falls, less is produced.
that’s not always true. sometimes demand falls and production continues.
that has never happened. if it had, if being vegan had caused production of meat to fall, then i think you could make a case. but it hasn’t so you can’t.
i didn’t like the bucket analogy when i wrote it. i don’t blame you.
i’m just looking for proof of causation between being vegan and suffering being reduced.
Inefficiency. Entropy. Laws of thermodynamics.
Think of it this way. In a game of telephone, signal quality degrades. Remove the middle-men, you improve the signal-to-noise. In a similar manner, there is little point in raising livestock on land, only to greatly pollute said land, only to produce a substance in less quantity and quality than what you could’ve done in its absence. Less demand means less livestock raised or tortured.
In another way, if you are saying that whether these animals roam free and die by the nature versus being grown in confined cages to be harvested… Then I wager whether if aliens descended upon this planet and you could either live as you do or you and your offspring be raised like cattle in a dark cramped alien farm, hauled around by convey-belts for the slaughter — tell me, which would you prefer?
Edit: This peculiar user who lacks the capacity to respond with a single coherent comment in the thread (Schizophrenia? I don’t know…) espouses various logical fallacies and deflections. I am utterly unimpressed by their incoherent rebuttals and have no interest in discussing with bad-faith laziness. My points remain largely untouched.
these are not magic words which take the place of a properly constructed argument.
Please, consolidate your comments into one. If you cannot manage this simple task, then I don’t know what point there is in discussing Thermodynamics with you.
no.
Then I don’t care for your incoherent ramblings full of deflections and fallacies. See ya, buddy.
everything i’ve said has been true. no discussion of thermodynamics would change that.
this is a nonsequitur. it has nothing to do with whether being vegan reduces sufffering, which it doesn’t.
that’s not causal
what year did you go vegan?
how much has suffering been reduced?
Chill dude, I am a vegetarian myself. No time and energy is needed to be vegetarian.
for some people, it might.