Here is how platforms die: first, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die.
I call this enshittification, and it is a seemingly inevitable consequence arising from the combination of the ease of changing how a platform allocates value, combined with the nature of a “two sided market,” where a platform sits between buyers and sellers, holding each hostage to the other, raking off an ever-larger share of the value that passes between them.
Do you think maybe it’ll be different with a federated and thus less centralized platform like Lemmy? Or do you think it will just delay this process? Cause right now lemmy and kbin seem to be pretty good.
I think that the FOSS Fediverse platforms are significantly resistant to enshittification.
That same article explores what enables enshittification and what precludes it:
The Netheads wanted to build diverse networks with lots of offers, lots of competition, and easy, low-cost switching between competitors (thanks to interoperability).
Fediverse platforms:
are highly interoperable - e.g. you can use Lemmy or Kbin and still see the same posts
mostly FOSS, so anyone can fork them whenever they want if they don’t like some particular change
most instances currently aren’t operated for profit - certainly if your instance started displaying ads you could switch to another instance (or set one up) and still access all the same content as you did previously
There’s no business platform here. So it will go a different path. Buy eventually the mods and instance admins who are volunteering their time and money to keep this going will wish to spend their time and money elsewhere. What happens after the first round of people who really work to make a free platform like this succeed go away? If there’s not a good deal of planning and acculturation for new people, there’s a high likelihood that a second generation of mods takes over who have different motives and reasons for running the place and the platform sees noticeable changes. Or nobody steps up at all and individual sections just end.
I honestly think the only way this could work is like email. So you either take the gmail like privacy destruction and ads, or you pay for a service. Back in the day it was bundled by the ISP, but now I think it’s way more likely to end up being some bundled ‘online service’ company that for a monthly fee provided a swath of federated content and services. But that it hasn’t sprung up implies that it’s not a workable model.
I mean the mods and admins won’t all go away at once, right? It’s probably gonna be gradual, so maybe the existing mods can keep any new/replacing mods in check? I dunno…
Plus, do you think maybe a donation model could be viable for platforms like this? It’s split over multiple instances so surely at least the smaller ones could be ran off of donation money?
Hard to say. My experience with people in general is that they’ll keep going even if things aren’t great, but they’ll get upset. And eventually things will come to a head and there’s a major change in a short period of time. This being a somewhat democratic platform, I would bet that we’ll have that sort of trajectory.
As for donations, it’s just very hard to get people to donate enough and often enough to support this kind of thing. Think of the regular donation appeals on public radio, or Wikipedia, or even The Guardian. They have a whole organization and system built around soliciting donations, and even then they are always operating on a shoestring. How often do you donate? How often do your friends and family?
In fediverse, the data is already public. You’ll just need to run an instance, start federating and the data will flow directly into your instance. Whether someone will somehow find a way to extract profit from this system is remain to be seen.
Whether someone will somehow find a way to extract profit from this system is remain to be seen.
I think it’s inevitable that someone will find a way to profit, even if it’s just scraping the data for training LLMs, or for something like those shitty sites that just duplicate GitHub issues.
The question of enshittification isn’t whether someone can find a way to profit, it’s whether someone can find a way to change the platform to increase their profit.
As with many things under capitalism, the ongoing mandate is that profits must go up, and must go up at a higher rate no matter what, or investors panic and the price drops steeply which can lead to a collapse. Reddit is just another ravenous profit-seeking vehicle of the same kind and is going into the same “line must go up” death spiral.
I wouldn’t say Reddit always has been owned by a malicious entity, Aaron Swartz was a cool guy. And if you’re telling me a man who freely distributed thousands of needlessly paywalled research papers is a some kind of arch capitalist, then there’s no helping you.
True true, I just specifically took issue with it always having been run by bastards. (I know it’s a meme template, but I just wanted to point to evidence that there is hope that not everything we use has always been yoked with pure greed. Call it a cope, IDC.)
there is hope that not everything we use has always been yoked with pure greed
If your basis for believing that is Reddit having one co-owner you liked for one year and that’s the best evidence you got, that isn’t a strong basis.
You can do sophistic tricks like exaggerating other people’s positions to try to make yours seem more tenable so you can mine for supposed exceptions, but the reality remains that capitalism requires increasingly unsustainable profit margins over time for the lifetime of each product and that consequently results in systemic enshittification of things that were previously decent and bearable. That is an inevitable ongoing process in this present system.
Swartz had good beliefs about freedom of information but politically was kind of a weirdo. What happened to him is an unlimited tragedy and outright criminal.
One co-owner being around for one year doesn’t absolve the skullduggery of the other that is still here to the present day, as another poster already mentioned.
Honestly as a capitalist (I know, blasphemy) Aaron did the world a favor when he dropped those papers. Elsevier Wiley IEEE et al have a cartel and so many of them are NIH or DOD funded papers they should be public domain period.
The premise of our system depends on controls to avoid instilled entries extorting capital. Capitalism isn’t: it’s feudalism with extra steps
Before you congratulate yourself again for internet bravery, do you actually own capital? Do you own the means of production? If not, you’re not a capitalist even if you wave pompoms and otherwise do apologia for capitalism.
You’re not really a capitalist in a meaningful way. You might cheerlead for it, but that isn’t a means of production no matter what Uber/Lyft might tell you.
yeah they aren’t IPO yet, I think a lot of stuff didn’t play nicely for them, with the ukraine war, the tech bubbles popping and the general global economic conditions things aren’t exactly favourable. I think also the backlash to 3rd party apps and their general shittiness has been hurting them a bit more than they have said.
Have been for years. Reddit is mismanaged, and the IPO is just an effort to get whatever they can before letting suckers hold the bag. They will never reach the valuation they had.
The largest owners are Advance Publications and Tencent. Advance also own Condé Nasty (Reddit even used to be under the Condé Nast banner). Weirdly they also own everyone’s favorite plagiarism detection service Turnitin.
If you look at who Spez idolizes (Musk) and how he treated and talked about the protesters…. No. He or the board doesn’t get a pass for this. This is a move stemmed 100% from financial gain and malfeasance
Is reddit owned and operated by a malicious entity? I used to be addicted to that platform, but now I can’t stand it.
From https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys
This is going to be the most quoted literary work of the 21st century
Do you think maybe it’ll be different with a federated and thus less centralized platform like Lemmy? Or do you think it will just delay this process? Cause right now lemmy and kbin seem to be pretty good.
I think that the FOSS Fediverse platforms are significantly resistant to enshittification.
That same article explores what enables enshittification and what precludes it:
Fediverse platforms:
Hmm yeah that’s what I was thinking… May kbin and lemmy live long and prosper 🖖
There’s no business platform here. So it will go a different path. Buy eventually the mods and instance admins who are volunteering their time and money to keep this going will wish to spend their time and money elsewhere. What happens after the first round of people who really work to make a free platform like this succeed go away? If there’s not a good deal of planning and acculturation for new people, there’s a high likelihood that a second generation of mods takes over who have different motives and reasons for running the place and the platform sees noticeable changes. Or nobody steps up at all and individual sections just end.
I honestly think the only way this could work is like email. So you either take the gmail like privacy destruction and ads, or you pay for a service. Back in the day it was bundled by the ISP, but now I think it’s way more likely to end up being some bundled ‘online service’ company that for a monthly fee provided a swath of federated content and services. But that it hasn’t sprung up implies that it’s not a workable model.
I mean the mods and admins won’t all go away at once, right? It’s probably gonna be gradual, so maybe the existing mods can keep any new/replacing mods in check? I dunno…
Plus, do you think maybe a donation model could be viable for platforms like this? It’s split over multiple instances so surely at least the smaller ones could be ran off of donation money?
Hard to say. My experience with people in general is that they’ll keep going even if things aren’t great, but they’ll get upset. And eventually things will come to a head and there’s a major change in a short period of time. This being a somewhat democratic platform, I would bet that we’ll have that sort of trajectory.
As for donations, it’s just very hard to get people to donate enough and often enough to support this kind of thing. Think of the regular donation appeals on public radio, or Wikipedia, or even The Guardian. They have a whole organization and system built around soliciting donations, and even then they are always operating on a shoestring. How often do you donate? How often do your friends and family?
In fediverse, the data is already public. You’ll just need to run an instance, start federating and the data will flow directly into your instance. Whether someone will somehow find a way to extract profit from this system is remain to be seen.
I think it’s inevitable that someone will find a way to profit, even if it’s just scraping the data for training LLMs, or for something like those shitty sites that just duplicate GitHub issues.
The question of enshittification isn’t whether someone can find a way to profit, it’s whether someone can find a way to change the platform to increase their profit.
As long as humans are involved and we are looking at a long enough timeframe, the answer is probably always yes.
Always has been.
As with many things under capitalism, the ongoing mandate is that profits must go up, and must go up at a higher rate no matter what, or investors panic and the price drops steeply which can lead to a collapse. Reddit is just another ravenous profit-seeking vehicle of the same kind and is going into the same “line must go up” death spiral.
I wouldn’t say Reddit always has been owned by a malicious entity, Aaron Swartz was a cool guy. And if you’re telling me a man who freely distributed thousands of needlessly paywalled research papers is a some kind of arch capitalist, then there’s no helping you.
Swartz co-owned reddit for around 1 year, 2006-2007. His influence has overall probably been insignificant.
True true, I just specifically took issue with it always having been run by bastards. (I know it’s a meme template, but I just wanted to point to evidence that there is hope that not everything we use has always been yoked with pure greed. Call it a cope, IDC.)
If your basis for believing that is Reddit having one co-owner you liked for one year and that’s the best evidence you got, that isn’t a strong basis.
You can do sophistic tricks like exaggerating other people’s positions to try to make yours seem more tenable so you can mine for supposed exceptions, but the reality remains that capitalism requires increasingly unsustainable profit margins over time for the lifetime of each product and that consequently results in systemic enshittification of things that were previously decent and bearable. That is an inevitable ongoing process in this present system.
Swartz had good beliefs about freedom of information but politically was kind of a weirdo. What happened to him is an unlimited tragedy and outright criminal.
That
tone isn’t necessary.
One co-owner being around for one year doesn’t absolve the skullduggery of the other that is still here to the present day, as another poster already mentioned.
Honestly as a capitalist (I know, blasphemy) Aaron did the world a favor when he dropped those papers. Elsevier Wiley IEEE et al have a cartel and so many of them are NIH or DOD funded papers they should be public domain period.
The premise of our system depends on controls to avoid instilled entries extorting capital. Capitalism isn’t: it’s feudalism with extra steps
Before you congratulate yourself again for internet bravery, do you actually own capital? Do you own the means of production? If not, you’re not a capitalist even if you wave pompoms and otherwise do apologia for capitalism.
Well damn, ya got me. I own a car. That’s about it.
You’re not really a capitalist in a meaningful way. You might cheerlead for it, but that isn’t a means of production no matter what Uber/Lyft might tell you.
they are preparing for IPO, the most inherently malicious owner there is!
Are they really still just preparing?
yeah they aren’t IPO yet, I think a lot of stuff didn’t play nicely for them, with the ukraine war, the tech bubbles popping and the general global economic conditions things aren’t exactly favourable. I think also the backlash to 3rd party apps and their general shittiness has been hurting them a bit more than they have said.
Have been for years. Reddit is mismanaged, and the IPO is just an effort to get whatever they can before letting suckers hold the bag. They will never reach the valuation they had.
If you count the US State Department and NATO affiliates as malicious (and you should), then yes
The largest owners are Advance Publications and Tencent. Advance also own Condé Nasty (Reddit even used to be under the Condé Nast banner). Weirdly they also own everyone’s favorite plagiarism detection service Turnitin.
I know of Tencent and the controversy about them… I don’t know anything about Advance though. Are they also controversial?
how much does tencent actually own? I could swear they only bought company stocks and not direct controls over reddit.
Halon’s Razor.
If you look at who Spez idolizes (Musk) and how he treated and talked about the protesters…. No. He or the board doesn’t get a pass for this. This is a move stemmed 100% from financial gain and malfeasance
The actual razor in that case; incompetent malice.
They think their platform is unique - incompetence.
They think this users are morons to be milked - malice.
Eventually the second part becomes true as the intelligent users realize the first is not l, leaving only morons who are easily milked.
Is that anything like Hanlon’s Razor?